Sea Vixen - Return to Flight Efforts Abandoned

[wellsprop]

Unfortunately, the news from the restoration of Sea Vixen XP924 is not what we had all hoped and it has been deemed too expensive to return the aircraft to the air.

 

https://www.facebook.com/NavyWingsUK/posts/2816940201908289

 

To be honest, this doesn't surprise me at all. I have been lucky enough to have access to the Navy Wings hanger on a few occasions over the past few years and the team have put huge amounts of effort into keeping the aircraft in suspended maintenance. As I understand, the damage occurred during the wheels up landing was much more significant than first thought and combined with the complexity of the aircraft and the huge operating cost - the decision has been made.

 

All this said, the volunteers at Navy Wings have done a lot of work (and I assume will continue to) making sure that all the aircraft systems operate - so one day, when there is investment, there is a possibility it could return to flight.

 

I've seen a lot of unfair comments directed at Navy Wings, it's a charity after all - without the volunteers, we would have no historic FAA aircraft flying (unlike the BBMF, which is government funded).

[RobL]

It's terrible how we treat our heritage in this country!

[NoSG0]

It is a shame, but, understandable I think.

 

I always enjoy watching Sea Vixen videos on youtube.

[wellsprop]

19 minutes ago, NoSG0 said:

It is a shame, but, understandable I think.

 

I always enjoy watching Sea Vixen videos on youtube.

 

Yes, unfortunately the damage was very significant. The fuselage frames had actually been damaged, which requires the skin to be removed. I don't know if these could be repaired or had to be made from new. 

 

I'm fortunate that I have been able to see the Sea Vixen and the Seahawk flying (albeit only just). 

[junglierating]

19 hours ago, wellsprop said:

 

I've seen a lot of unfair comments directed at Navy Wings, it's a charity after all - without the volunteers, we would have no historic FAA aircraft flying (unlike the BBMF, which is government funded).

Whos said that ...id be interested to read ....I bet FOSH is grumpy about that 

[Robert Shedd]

Sad news indeed... I saw the Sea Vixen at Blackpool airshow some years ago (along with Vulcan XH558). A distinctive, beautiful shape and that sound as it ripped through the sky at low (ish) level... 

[tonyot]

Are the RNHF/Fly Navy just unlucky? They have lost a pair of Sea Furies and a Firefly, belly landed another Seafury,.... had constant engine problems with another, the Sea Hawk was grounded and the Sea Vixen belly landed too while the Swordfish have been grounded on and off for a while,....... it just seems like they are jinxed. When the Sea Vixen went there I had a feeling that its days in the air were numbered. 

[noelh]

I agree Tony. I've often thought that. They seem to have nothing but bad luck. It's sad because the aircraft they have are unique. 

[wellsprop]

13 hours ago, tonyot said:

Are the RNHF/Fly Navy just unlucky? They have lost a pair of Sea Furies and a Firefly, belly landed another Seafury,.... had constant engine problems with another, the Sea Hawk was grounded and the Sea Vixen belly landed too while the Swordfish have been grounded on and off for a while,....... it just seems like they are jinxed. When the Sea Vixen went there I had a feeling that its days in the air were numbered. 

 

I had no idea about the Firefly crash and crew loss at Duxford  I was too young at the time to be aware of that. Similarly, I didn't realise they lost 2 Sea Furys within a year. WG655, the 2 seat Fury, was lost, rebuilt to flying condition and then had a similar incident at Duxford this year, resulting in a loss (this time due to a faulty PW engine).

 

I assume a large difficulty is the type of engines they use, the Pegasus and Centaurus aren't "common" engines (as @noelh points out, they are unique) and the Centaurus in particular is particularly complicated - so perhaps it's not incredibly surprising that they have had engine troubles?

 

Unfortunately, I think the bigger difficulty is funding, with enough time and money almost anything can be made to fly. It seems Fly Navy don't get the money or support that other organisations do. Perhaps, there is a bit of "is-it-a-Spitfire?" going on 😕...

[tonyot]

11 hours ago, wellsprop said:

 

I had no idea about the Firefly crash and crew loss at Duxford  I was too young at the time to be aware of that. Similarly, I didn't realise they lost 2 Sea Furys within a year. WG655, the 2 seat Fury, was lost, rebuilt to flying condition and then had a similar incident at Duxford this year, resulting in a loss (this time due to a faulty PW engine).

 

I assume a large difficulty is the type of engines they use, the Pegasus and Centaurus aren't "common" engines (as @noelh points out, they are unique) and the Centaurus in particular is particularly complicated - so perhaps it's not incredibly surprising that they have had engine troubles?

 

Unfortunately, I think the bigger difficulty is funding, with enough time and money almost anything can be made to fly. It seems Fly Navy don't get the money or support that other organisations do. Perhaps, there is a bit of "is-it-a-Spitfire?" going on 😕...

Not bad luck or Gremlin`s then?

[Work In Progress]

The likes of the jets are pretty complex types which have never been particularly incident-free in service. I think people tend to forget that the accident rate of most of the the '50s and '60s jet fighters, even when they were brand new and had hordes of maintenance manpower and spare parts available, was horrendous by modern standards on both sides of the Atlantic.

 

Even a Sea Fury or Firefly is a very different kettle of fish, if something goes wrong, in comparison to a Hurricane or a Spitfire V or IX. An aeroplane which displays at a wing loading of 25 lb / sq ft gives you a lot more scope than a visually similar aeroplane which is flown at a display wing loading of 45 lb / sq ft, in the event of a complete or partial engine failure or an undercarriage malfunction.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Work In Progress

[alt-92]

On 11/13/2020 at 5:36 PM, RobL said:

It's terrible how we treat our heritage in this country!

Yes. Quite.

What do you propose?

[wellsprop]

4 minutes ago, Work In Progress said:

The likes of the jets are pretty complex types which have never been particularly incident-free in service. I think people tend to forget that the accident rate of most of the the '50s and '60s jet fighters, even when they were brand new and had hordes of maintenance manpower and spare parts available, was horrendous by modern standards on both sides of the Atlantic.

 

+1

 

 

[junglierating]

4 hours ago, alt-92 said:

Yes. Quite.

What do you propose?

It's terrible how we treat our heritage in this country said RobL....

 

Really how so ....it depends on your perspective I guess.I happen to think that compared to most countries in Europe at least the UK (cant believe I'm saying this) is streets ahead ...whst with all that stuff in London ,county museum,city museums... try Portsmouth city museum its excellent and FREE....

Then there are all the niche museums...tv museum in  Montecute ( if you like that sort of thing) which is right next to Montecute house ...National Trust then theres NTS and English Heritage. 

As for aircraft crickey where do you start....two not one Crabfat museum plus Duxford and lots of smaller ones     Tangmere is a favourite....its not all corporate and poncey...and the Midland air museum also pretty good.

Compare that to le bourget....in France...great but down at heel.

As for military ..Gurkha zrifles ,Devon and Dorset ..National army museum,Tank museum ....ooh Army Air Corp......you get the picture....

I wont mention the Navy coz I can get very angry about it...as some on here might know😡as for poor Royal....best museum in Europe countless times and now they are being shafted....probably.

Message ends over and out

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by junglierating

[Graham Boak]

Agreed with your main argument entirely, but before getting too weepy about the Andrew's representation let's mention Portsmouth, Yeovilton, Chatham, Gosport, Hartlepool. HMS Belfast moored in the middle of the capital,  Caroline in Belfast, Brittania in Leith....  Plus part-scale replicas of Golden Hind, Endeavour, whatever it is in Dundee (sorry, brain fade) plus no doubt others.  Major tax-payer funded restorations of Mary Rose, Warrior, Victory (again and again).  It is just much more expensive to restore and maintain a warship than it is a mere aircraft or tank, but we don't do too badly.

 

OK, maybe Cardiff is missing out.

[Giorgio N]

1 hour ago, junglierating said:

It's terrible how we treat our heritage in this country said RobL....

 

Really how so ....it depends on your perspective I guess.I happen to think that compared to most countries in Europe at least the UK (cant believe I'm saying this) is streets ahead ...whst with all that stuff in London ,county museum,city museums... try Portsmouth city museum its excellent and FREE....

Then there are all the niche museums...tv museum in  Montecute ( if you like that sort of thing) which is right next to Montecute house ...National Trust then theres NTS and English Heritage. 

As for aircraft crickey where do you start....two not one Crabfat museum plus Duxford and lots of smaller ones     Tangmere is a favourite....its not all corporate and poncey...and the Midland air museum also pretty good.

Compare that to le bourget....in France...great but down at heel.

As for military ..Gurkha zrifles ,Devon and Dorset ..National army museum,Tank museum ....ooh Army Air Corp......you get the picture....

I wont mention the Navy coz I can get very angry about it...as some on here might know😡as for poor Royal....best museum in Europe countless times and now they are being shafted....probably.

Message ends over and out

 

 

As a foreigner (who however has traveled quite a lot...) I can only agree.

It's not only the number of museums and similar sites in Britain, it's the whole culture of preservation that is miles ahead than most other places in the world, applies to anything from aircraft to military items to classic cars or tractors to silverware and fine china... everything at every level and scale, from the use of National Lottery fund to save historic aircraft to the guy who keeps his first motorbike running 50 years later.

This kind of culture is positive not only in the preservation of the heritage but also in the accessibility of such heritage: I've visited plenty of Regimental Museums in Britain, all open to the public. When I served in the Army in my country we had at our barracks a good number of items dating back from as early as the Crimean War and a fine collection of historic tanks and vehicles.. all closed to the public.

So I'd say that nobody in Britain can complain about the preservation of historic heritage, including aircraft. Yes, sometime it's not been possible to save one type or the other, sometime money can't be found to save that particular airframe or that ship, but still this is a Country that does way better than most. The Sea Vixen will not be able to fly ? It's a pity but at least that airframe can and will be preserved. In the end machines have a finite life, there comes a time when an aircraft is best kept on the ground.

Money is afterall limited, particularly in these years (and this and the next year will be even worse). Even if we'd like to see every kind of aircraft in the air and all ships preseved, choices must be made and often it's not possible to preserve everything.

And of course, as others well said above, jets from that generation suffered accidents when new, today even if well maintained they are subject to a risk factor much higher than modern types and no amount of money can sort this. We have to live with this and always consider the risk that one of them may have an accident. At least in this case the airframe can be saved.

 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Giorgio N

[ckw]

I think one of the big problems with restoring aircraft for flight has been a massive increase in insurance costs for airshow operations.  I suspect that we British will continue to preserve aircraft - it seems a peculiar national characteristic - but the economics of keeping them airworthy will be increasingly challenging.

 

Cheers

 

Colin

 

 

 

[alt-92]

My response was a bit tongue in cheek, I'll admit.

More out of surprise and perhaps a bit of disbelief, compared to what sometimes paltry efforts we see on mainland Europe.

 

That said, I do think the posters above hit the nail on it's head. 

Maintenance is resource-intensive, and no matter how much we all want our favourite subject see preferred treatment, it means something else must give.

[junglierating]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

Agreed with your main argument entirely, but before getting too weepy about the Andrew's representation let's mention Portsmouth, Yeovilton, Chatham, Gosport, Hartlepool. HMS Belfast moored in the middle of the capital,  Caroline in Belfast, Brittania in Leith....  Plus part-scale replicas of Golden Hind, Endeavour, whatever it is in Dundee (sorry, brain fade) plus no doubt others.  Major tax-payer funded restorations of Mary Rose, Warrior, Victory (again and again).  It is just much more expensive to restore and maintain a warship than it is a mere aircraft or tank, but we don't do too badly.

 

OK, maybe Cardiff is missing out.

I agree Graham as I have said before on Maritime threads but Historic Dockyard are the biggest load of shysters I have seen (only my opinion,)....they aint daft though if the RN are happy to fleese the public in this manner ridiculous prices....bankrupt a family.The only reason i had been in recent years was because an ex gf from a long time ago got me in ...she worked for BAe at the time 75% discount.

[wellsprop]

https://historicandclassicaircraftsales.com/de-havilland-sea-vixen

 

Sea Vixen is now for sale.

 

Whilst I'm sad Navy Wings won't be operating the Sea Vixen, I hope this interests someone with the funds to get her flying....

 

Those air to air shots are magnificent (more here https://vintageaviationecho.com/flying-the-sea-vixen/ )

[exdraken]

On 11/13/2020 at 5:36 PM, RobL said:

It's terrible how we treat our heritage in this country!

I would say, of course everything could be better and better Funden, Britin is very heritage conscious.

It is slso easier, as a 2 times war winner! Other countries with such potential are currently doing their best in destroying what is left of any potential heritage to be proud of

Even more differently, the looser countries can't thankfully keep such positive spirit, especially as there would not be a lot of positives anyways..

So I am glad that some, although very limited, flying of even Messerschmitts is possible in Austria and Germany! ( just had a flying Me 262 at Airpower 22 in authentic colors ( but not full markings and a static Bf 108 )) But thanks that e.g. Swastikas are not seen outside of some special museums here usually!!

 

So history and heritage might be a bit delicate in some countries (actually most in Europe!!) , not so much in others!(France, UK...) ... ....