Soviet sentinel

[Col.]

Time to make a commitment and decide on my subject choice. This particular machine has always been a firm favourite for me and when Trumpeter announced their 1/72nd scale kit of the worlds largest and heaviest fighter I held out hope it'd be one of their more accurate. From all the reviews and reports I've ready it thankfully is.

 

 

[Aardvark]

51 minutes ago, Col. said:

worlds largest and heaviest fighter

Your Honor, 

clarification, "serial worlds largest and heaviest interceptor", because, I don't know how about heaviest, but largest in the length was  YF-12A!

😉😁😎

 

B.R.

Serge

[trickyrich]

she's going to be big!!!

 

Interestingly, JetMADS who have the 1/32nd Viggen (and I have one coming soon! 🥰) have flagged as a possible future release a 1/48th version of this beast (along with B-47)!!! I just know I'm going to need a bigger shelf!  

[Aardvark]

4 minutes ago, trickyrich said:

JetMADS who have the 1/32nd Viggen (and I have one coming soon! 🥰) have flagged as a possible future release a 1/48th version of this beast (along with B-47)!!!

A link to this news is possible?  Of course, I have a 72nd scale*,😎 but some of my friends collect 48th scale and they will be very happy with this news!

 

B.R.

Serge

 

____________

* - the only true and correct scale !!!! 😉😁😁 All other scales were invented by Satan and sent down to our world straight from hell!😜😁😁

 

[trickyrich]

1 hour ago, Aardvark said:

A link to this news is possible?  Of course, I have a 72nd scale*,😎 but some of my friends collect 48th scale and they will be very happy with this news!

 

here it is, at he speed they do their releases I wouldn't expect it for sometime. It may even be a wishful think model, but you never know. There's quite a few of their "future releases" that would get more than a few mouths watering...1/18th Skyhawk or A-37 Dragonfly.

 

https://www.jetmads.com/1-48

 

The test release shots of the new 1/32nd Viggen are amazing, can't wait till March!

 

 

[Hewy]

Like it!

[Col.]

8 hours ago, Aardvark said:

Your Honor, 

clarification, "serial worlds largest and heaviest interceptor", because, I don't know how about heaviest, but largest in the length was  YF-12A!

😉😁😎

 

B.R.

Serge

I'm taking Wikipedia's word for this and guessing they mean production aircraft to reach operational service

8 hours ago, trickyrich said:

she's going to be big!!!

 

Interestingly, JetMADS who have the 1/32nd Viggen (and I have one coming soon! 🥰) have flagged as a possible future release a 1/48th version of this beast (along with B-47)!!! I just know I'm going to need a bigger shelf!  

Ooft! You're gonna need a strong shelf as well fella  

[Aardvark]

1 hour ago, Col. said:

I'm taking Wikipedia's word for this and guessing they mean production aircraft to reach operational service

In Wikipedia (I do not remember, only in Russian, or in both Russian and English versions) there was no data on the participation of RAF Venom F.B. 4  in the Suez crisis 😲(!), and they appeared only after it became clear during a discussion on the Russian forum scalemodels.ru (one "expert" 😁referred to the fact that since there is no data on Wikipedia about Venom's participation, it was not there!)  what the forum user has made the appropriate additions to Wikipedia!  Therefore, Wikipedia is not always a complete source.

 

Although, in fact, my posting was, only to put Your topic under observation!  I always do this if the build is interesting to me! 😉😁

 

B.R.

Serge

[Col.]

47 minutes ago, Aardvark said:

In Wikipedia (I do not remember, only in Russian, or in both Russian and English versions) there was no data on the participation of RAF Venom F.B. 4  in the Suez crisis 😲(!), and they appeared only after it became clear during a discussion on the Russian forum scalemodels.ru (one "expert" 😁referred to the fact that since there is no data on Wikipedia about Venom's participation, it was not there!)  what the forum user has made the appropriate additions to Wikipedia!  Therefore, Wikipedia is not always a complete source.

 

Although, in fact, my posting was, only to put Your topic under observation!  I always do this if the build is interesting to me! 😉😁

 

B.R.

Serge

Wikipedia, as any source, is only ever going to be as good as its contributers I suppose. Glad to have you along for this project Serge as it's a type I know little about but have always loved so perhaps you can help me

[Aardvark]

On 11/9/2020 at 1:09 PM, Col. said:

so perhaps you can help me

Absolutely Not, Tu-128 it's only my  precious, ONLY MY:

😁😁😁

Sorry, I can’t help myself, the national characteristic described by the classical Russian poet Alexander Sergeevich Pushkin:

("There, Tsar Kashchei wasted away over gold .... there the Russian spirit, there it smells of Russia!")

😁😁

 

B.R.

Serge

 

P.S.

Of course I'll help!😉😎  Can’t be joking ?!  😉 In fact, I write remarks in all interesting topics, not only to write at least something, but to share my knowledge and (possibly!) get some knowledge in return. And of course, I write only in those topics of this GB, the objects of which are in my collection, that is, you's are unlikely to see my posting in the Fulmar or Sopwith Baby theme! Because I just don't understand anything about Sopwith or Fulmar, and I've been collecting my collection of Jet Fighters for more than thirty years, so I think I understand something about this thematic,  just a little!😉😁

 

[Col.]

Haha @Aardvark glad to have you along for this ride Serge  

When I was a kid in the 70s and early 80s the only regular source of information on Soviet types was the RAF yearbook, where a small three-view drawing and basic (as well as no doubt slightly dubious) specification might occasionally be accompanied by a grainy monotone photograph, perhaps the scant reports were enough to fire up the imagination of a budding future fighter pilot but I've always been fascinated by them ever since. Move forward with me, if you will, to 1990 and come stand in what was Aberdeen's best model shop called Brian Sherriff's where the brand new Hasegawa Su-27 kit has landed on the shelf only to be seized by 16 year-old me for a fist-full of part-time job wages. After getting it home and inspecting this delightfully refined and detailed kit I distinctly remember a vivid dream that Hasegawa was going to bring out an equally good quality kit of the Tu-128. Sadly they never did but 30 years later Trumpeter have made that boyhood dream come true  

Hmm, that Su-27 kit is still in my stash, perhaps it needs dug out for this GB as well...

[Aardvark]

10 minutes ago, Col. said:

When I was a kid in the 70s and early 80s the only regular source of information on Soviet types was the RAF yearbook, where a small three-view drawing and basic (as well as no doubt slightly dubious) specification might occasionally be accompanied by a grainy monotone photograph, perhaps the scant reports were enough to fire up the imagination of a budding future fighter pilot but I've always been fascinated by them ever since. 

We didn't have that either.  There was a paradoxical situation, thanks to the magazines "Wings of the Motherland" to a lesser extent and to a greater extent "Foreign Military Review" we knew a lot about modern Western aviation, but practically did not know anything about modern military aviation of the USSR, was only photo with signed "missile carrier" or "multipurpose aircraft".

For the first time I saw the MiG-29 model in 1987, it was Fujimi, it was almost smuggled in, because the name MiG-29 was still closed ...yes, photo MiG-29 was published, but without name "MiG-29". Name "MiG-29" was published in 1988  if I remember correctly. During this same period, home-made models of Soviet aircraft made entirely from scratch by modelers began to appear.  I have seen at least three of these models MiG-29, Su-24 .... and MiG-27 in 1:57 scale!

Moreover, there was a paradoxical situation when Tu-128, Yak-38, Yak-28, MiG-27 simply found themselves in the shadow of the fashionable Su-27 and MiG-29, which could be talked about and told in the press, but not about their predecessors.

But that was not long, then literature came from the west, local magazines tried to keep up. I knew that Tu-128 models are made in the West in the form of a vacuum, but it was not realistic to get Western vacu here, it was rare. But, due to the deteriorating economic situation, the models became prohibitively expensive, and they began to develop Vaku here.  Then I got a Tu-128 Vac from YMTK, which I just gave when I got an A-model.

This my storie from other side 😁Moon.

 

B.R.

Serge

 

 

[Col.]

24 minutes ago, Aardvark said:

We didn't have that either.  There was a paradoxical situation, thanks to the magazines "Wings of the Motherland" to a lesser extent and to a greater extent "Foreign Military Review" we knew a lot about modern Western aviation, but practically did not know anything about modern military aviation of the USSR, was only photo with signed "missile carrier" or "multipurpose aircraft".

For the first time I saw the MiG-29 model in 1987, it was Fujimi, it was almost smuggled in, because the name MiG-29 was still closed ...yes, photo MiG-29 was published, but without name "MiG-29". Name "MiG-29" was published in 1988  if I remember correctly. During this same period, home-made models of Soviet aircraft made entirely from scratch by modelers began to appear.  I have seen at least three of these models MiG-29, Su-24 .... and MiG-27 in 1:57 scale!

Moreover, there was a paradoxical situation when Tu-128, Yak-38, Yak-28, MiG-27 simply found themselves in the shadow of the fashionable Su-27 and MiG-29, which could be talked about and told in the press, but not about their predecessors.

But that was not long, then literature came from the west, local magazines tried to keep up. I knew that Tu-128 models are made in the West in the form of a vacuum, but it was not realistic to get Western vacu here, it was rare. But, due to the deteriorating economic situation, the models became prohibitively expensive, and they began to develop Vaku here.  Then I got a Tu-128 Vac from YMTK, which I just gave when I got an A-model.

This my storie from other side 😁Moon.

 

B.R.

Serge

Interesting to compare our similar experiences from either side of the 'Iron Curtain' back then Serge. The MiG-29 seemed to suddenly arrive in western consciousness with their visit to Finland whereas the Su-27 I always associate with an article in the Royal Observer Corps magazine a couple of years afterwards once one had come into rather too close contact while trying to shoo away a Norwegian P-3 Orion over the Barents Sea.

The rarity of certain model kits is also a relevant point as I had spent a long time trying to source an example of Trumpeter's Tu-128 kit for quite a while to no avail until @Duncan B at BlackMike Models got one in for me  

[PeterB]

Hi Guys,

 

Nearly bought one of these a few years back - wish I had now. I dug out my ancient copy of "The Observer's Soviet Aircraft Directory" by Swanborough and Green the other day and it is at times quite amusing to see how what little info available in 1975 was sometimes misinterpreted. For example they say that the later versions of the Su-9 I will be building had longer and wider noses - we now know that's because they were Su-11 with a bigger radar, but they then say the Su-11 is in fact what we now know to be the Su -15! At one stage the Su-24 was reported as the Su-19 in another book, and as for the Tu-128 well surely that was far too big to be a just a fighter?  Originally it was considered to be a bomber, or at the very least a fighter bomber but by the time this book was produced they had decided it was after all a fighter but they actually call it the Tu-28P (probably the usual confusion between OKB in-house numbers and official "state" designations). Even more amusing is the statement that it is "The largest and heaviest interceptor in operational service until the debut in 1974 of its successor, the interceptor version of the Tu-22"! They say in the section on the Tu-22 "During the latter half of 1974, a long-range heavy interceptor version of the Tu-22 was being phased into service as a successor to the ageing Tu-28P................it is primarily intended to fulfil standing patrol missions over the large sections of the Soviet periphery unprotected by SAM screens". I am not sure who started the story about the Tu-22 fighter version but it features in the Harpoon computer wargame by Larry Bond. Perhaps Serge @Aardvark knows something about it?

 

I will watch this build with great interest.

 

Pete

Edited November 11, 2020 by PeterB

[Col.]

26 minutes ago, PeterB said:

Hi Guys,

 

Nearly bought one of these a few years back - wish I had now. I dug out my ancient copy of "The Observer's Soviet Aircraft Directory" by Swanborough and Green the other day and it is at times quite amusing to see how what little info available in 1975 was sometimes misinterpreted. For example they say that the later versions of the Su-9 I will be building had longer and wider noses - we now know that's because they were Su-11 with a bigger radar, but they then say the Su-11 is in fact what we now know to be the Su -15! At one stage the Su-24 was reported as the Su-19 in another book, and as for the Tu-128 well surely that was far too big to be a just a fighter?  Originally it was considered to be a bomber, or at the very least a fighter bomber but by the time this book was produced they had decided it was after all a fighter but they actually call it the Tu-28P (probably the usual confusion between OKB in-house numbers and official "state" designations). Even more amusing is the statement that it is "The largest and heaviest interceptor in operational service until the debut in 1974 of its successor, the interceptor version of the Tu-22"! They say in the section on the Tu-22 "During the latter half of 1974, a long-range heavy interceptor version of the Tu-22 was being phased into service as a successor to the ageing Tu-28P................it is primarily intended to fulfil standing patrol missions over the large sections of the Soviet periphery unprotected by SAM screens". I am not sure who started the story about the Tu-22 fighter version but it features in the Harpoon computer wargame by Larry Bond. Perhaps Serge @Aardvark knows something about it?

 

I will watch this build with great interest.

 

Pete

There must have been a lot of misinterpretation, false information, and plain guesswork going on back then  The thing I always remember was how far off the artistic impressions baised from grainy spy photos of what the Su-25, Su-27, and MiG-29 were supposed to look like before they were seen in the west.

[PeterB]

Hi Col.

 

Yes, a combination of intentional misdirection by the Soviets and some fanciful interpretation of photos did not help. I think it was my old "The Soviet War Machine" book that had a sketch of the "Su-19" as seen in spy photos - the text said it resembles the F-111 and F-14 and "Whereas "Foxbat" was on many Western lips in the 1960's, so is "Fencer" a big scare-word in the 1970's". As to the confusion between bureau numbers and service designations the Bear is a case in point! Actually I owe Swanborough and Green an apology - the mix up over the Su-9/11/15 was actually in the Blandford series "The Pocket Encyclopedia of World Aircraft in Colour" - "Fighters in Service since 1960" by Kenneth Munson first published in 1966 and reprinted in 1970!

 

Pete

Edited November 11, 2020 by PeterB

[PeterB]

34 minutes ago, PeterB said:

Ignore this - pressed the wrong button!

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by PeterB

[Aardvark]

43 minutes ago, PeterB said:

Perhaps Serge @Aardvark knows something about it?

Don't remember, did I tell this anecdote or not?

 

 Circus.  Circus poster.  There is an inscription on it: "Unique number! Only with us! A boy with a unique memory!" The beginning of the performance, the entertainer announces the number, the boy comes out ... and begins to methodically pee at the audience starting from the first rows of the circus. In the hall, panic begins and the upper rows are trying to leave the circus unpee. The entertainer, addressing the upper rows: "No, no, you don't understand! The performance is called:"A boy with a UNIQUE MEMORY!!!""

😁

Sometimes I feel like a this boy with a unique memory !!!

😁😁😁

 

So, Tu-128 really based on unlucky bomber Tu-98 

http://alternathistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/25574-dalniy-barrazhiruyuschiy-istrebitel-perehvatchik-tu-128-chast-1-05.jpg

which by the way was shown to the American delegation, when it was known that this bomber would not go into production. We liked to joke like that, as you's probably know.

Tupolew tried to finish it with a file first in the F-105,

http://alternathistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/25574-dalniy-barrazhiruyuschiy-istrebitel-perehvatchik-tu-128-chast-1-11.jpg

calling him Tu-98A for conspiracy, and after recalling him Tu-98B:

 

 

Later, the restless Tupolev sawed through his Tu-98 into Tu-24:

http://alternathistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/25574-dalniy-barrazhiruyuschiy-istrebitel-perehvatchik-tu-128-chast-1-12.jpg

 

 

Firefighters, police, ambulance, police, KGB, two UFOs from other galaxies (which no one saw) and one air defense commander came to sparks flying out from under the file of Tupolev, who was once again sawing the Tu-98.The air defense commander was sad and sad because the La-250 was not working out, so he proposed to put the Tu-98 into an interceptor, almost interceptor Tu-98LL:

http://alternathistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/25574-dalniy-barrazhiruyuschiy-istrebitel-perehvatchik-tu-128-chast-1-15.jpg

Then Tupolev remembered that he was also a surgeon, and therefore he sewed the head of the Tu-98LL to the Tu-24 and called it Tu-128.  Then you's know, you've seen the Trumpeter model.

But old man Tupolev was very upset when his file was idle, and therefore he constantly tried to cut something else out of the Tu-128:

- Tu-128A:

http://alternathistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/25575-u-128-chast-2-12.jpg

- Tu-138:

http://alternathistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/25575-u-128-chast-2-15.jpg

http://alternathistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/25575-u-128-chast-2-17.jpg

 

http://alternathistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/25575-u-128-chast-2-12.jpg

 

Once Tupolev got tired of sawing with a file and he simply sewed a cockpit from an interceptor to the Tu-22M and called it all Tu-148:😁

http://alternathistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/25574-dalniy-barrazhiruyuschiy-istrebitel-perehvatchik-tu-128-chast-1-11.jpg

Therefore interceptor project on Tu-22M base was! Was after

how he ceased to be a Tornado😁 or "space interceptor from Star Wars"😁:

http://www.airwar.ru/enc/xplane/tu148.html

😁😁😁

 

 

Attention! Since now the http links due to the lack of s (https) are not showing as a photo, I could have confused the photo!  The correct photo order should be here:

http://alternathistory.com/dalnij-barrazhiruyushhij-istrebitel-perehvatchik-tu-128-chast-1-sozdanie-samoleta/

 

http://alternathistory.com/dalnij-barrazhiruyushhij-istrebitel-perehvatchik-tu-128-chast-2-serijnoe-proizvodstvo-i-modifikatsii/

 

2 hours ago, PeterB said:

At one stage the Su-24 was reported as the Su-19 in another book, and as for the Tu-128 well surely that was far too big to be a just a fighter?  

Su-19 in reality was project Su-15 with  

elliptical, ogival wing:

Iike a wing T-10  predecessor Su-27.

 

But and interceptor project on base Su-24 also was.

 

B.R.

Serge

 

[Col.]

Thank you for the various links and background Serge. Not only am I getting a better understanding of the Tu-128 as a subject but also finding ideas for the badly molded Amodel kit in the stash that would otherwise never get built 

[Aardvark]

8 hours ago, Col. said:

 but also finding ideas for the badly molded Amodel kit

Will be interesting

comparison

 A-model with Trumpeter for my.

The problems of the A-model are not only in the poor fit, but the problems of the A-model in the sweep angle of the wing.  This is due to the fact that in the technical documentation this angle was given along 3/4 of the wing chord line, while the developers of the model and O. Podkladov (drawings in A&V) applied this data to the leading edge of the wing, therefore the error.

 

B.R.

Serge

 

[Col.]

Now you're tempting me to dig the Amodel out of the stash and compare...

[PeterB]

When I get a few minutes I will dig out my books on "Soviet Heavy Fighters" and OKB-Tupolev and try and figure out all the various versions Serge mentioned. I was aware that the Tu-128 was descended from the Tu-98 (Backfin?) and that they were looking at a lot of upgrades such as the Tu-138 etc, and that the  Tu-22 was also subject to a lot of design projects as well. Along with my research on the Su-9 and Mig-19 I am beginning to understand just how complicated Soviet development can be.

 

Pete

[PeterB]

Hi,

 

I see what Serge means about the various versions of the Tu-98. The original twin engined version with shoulder mounted intakes was not accepted for production for whatever reason, but the "98B" proposal with a single engine and modified intakes did indeed look very much like the F-105. The thing I have noticed whilst researching the Mig-19, Mig-21 and Su-9 is that whilst all aircraft companies make a lot of "paper" designs, the Soviets back then seemed far more likely to actually produce and fly them, even if only a single prototype. I don't know if it was due to the need to investigate the effects of various configurations "hands on" rather in wind tunnels or on computers, or if it was something to do with state funding making it rather easier than in say the US or UK. For example I cannot think of any US manufacturers who deliberately set out to build two versions of a plane in parallel, one with swept wings and one with a tailed delta as with the Mig-21, and to some extent the Su-7 and Su-9, though the latter were in fairness intended for two different functions - "tactical fighter" ie ground attack, and Interceptor. And I also see what Serge means about the various Tu-22 projects , at least one of which eventually lead to the Backfire. It has always been said, however jokingly, that the Soviets never threw anything away, but in truth they did seem more inclined to keep on modifying existing designs, sometimes quite drastically, rather than starting on a clean sheet of paper as it were. For example, the Bear could just about be said to be a totally re-worked version of their B-29 clone - OK new fuselage wings and engines but I think there are links, however tenuous - Serge may not agree!. The Tu-128 also went through considerable "paper" redesign including "strike" versions, delta and swing wings, but this is not a GB that allows that sort of build.

 

Sorry to go on so, but this is an area I knew virtually nothing about before as it was shrouded in secrecy until quite recently - I am finding it rather interesting!

 

Better leave Col to get on with his build thread - sorry mate.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

 

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by PeterB

[Aardvark]

2 hours ago, PeterB said:

"    For example, the Bear could just about be said to be a totally re-worked version of their B-29 clone - OK new fuselage wings and engines but I think there are links, however tenuous - Serge may not agree!.

Why not agree?

B-29 =>Tu-4 =>Tu-80=>Tu-85=>Tu-95 which is essentially a Tu-85 fuselage with a new swept wing, tail and fin.

Therefore, why should i mind?  The B-29 is a very distant relative of the Tu-95, as I think.

As and MiG-21 very distant relative of the MiG-15. To some extent, the MiG-23 is related to the MiG-21, which through the MiG-23PD had a new fuselage, with the MiG-21 wing.

In most cases, in the USSR, as the country of the victorious revolution, the development of most aviation technology proceeded in an evolutionary and not revolutionary way. Even if the connection is not visible, but it is!  For example, the Yak-25 is an enlarged twin-engine Yak-50.  However, Yakovlev was generally a retrograde in this matter, the projects Yak-45 and Yak-47 rivals MiG-29 and Su-27, respectively, were actually based on the Yak-28. True, the Yak-45 and Yak-47 with a whistle flew past the prize-winning place in the competition of the USSR 4-generation fighter.

There is an evolutionary path in some Western developments, but not so long:

Panter=>Couguar=>Tiger

FH-1 => FH2

e.t.c.

 

4 hours ago, PeterB said:

Better leave Col to get on with his build thread - sorry mate.

 

 

Better leave @Col. will be best tomorrow, when starts GB, but today, when Friday 13

Therefore ....have  time before 00:00!

😉😁

 

B.R.

Serge

[PeterB]

Hi Serge,

 

True, I forgot about the Panther family and I guess the same could be said of the Fury link to the Sabre, but of course they were developed step by step not in parallel.. "Evolutionary not Revolutionary way" is is very good way to put it. Incidentally, you mentioned how the Tu-98 was shown to Western observers in the hope of confusing them - well it most certainly did. In the Observers book I mentioned earlier there is an entry headed "Backfin" which says that it remained something of a mystery for a number of years, being believed to be entering service as the "Yak-42" and that it was eventually discovered it was "a modified Tu-16 Badger intended for experimental purposes". They also correctly note that the Tu-28 had a similar layout.

 

Cheers

 

Pete

Edited November 13, 2020 by PeterB