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Hawker Hurricane ID help


OneEighthBit

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Found this picture (hope it embeds) in an old local paper dated March 1941 stating that the Hurricane which had been bought during a "Wings Week" collection was now in service use.

 

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Any consensus on the mark and serial? I read it as V7774 which was lost in Egypt, September 1941: http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C16997722

 

What little I've been able to figure out, if it is, V7774 is that it's a Mk.I built at Brooklands/Langley with a Merlin. III engine. I would assume if it went to Egypt it would have been repainted and fitted with a Volkes filter?

 

If anyone can shed some light and possibly recommend some viable kits to make a replica I'd appreciate the help! Hurricanes are definitely not my area of expertise.

 

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pic not showing. Without that, I can't say more.   needs to be on  photo host,  or at least set to publicly visible on a google drive

 

Aircraft which were collected for are usually recorded, IIRC @Graham Boak  has a book listing them

 

Some general points. 

Early desert Hurricane often retained their European camo.  

Trop Mk.I's usually from photos, had the De Havilland Hurricane propeller.

Kits?

scale?

Anyway assuming you want a Trop Mk.I,  these are your best options,  and all have the requisite parts, right pop and a trop filter. 

1/144th Sweet tropical

72nd Arma Hobby Mk.I

48th Airfix new tool

 

in 32 Fly Mk.I , I think they do a trop boxing, but not checked. 

 

HTH

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Picture visible.  Hawker Langley Mark I  V7774 TOC 30 Nov 1940, 52 MU 28? Dec 1940, Takoradi 29 Jan 1941, ex Takoradi ME (B?) 14 Apr 1941, SOC 5 Sep 1941.

 

V7770 to V7772 and V7797 to V7799 exported on 16 December 1940, ship name not given.  V7778 retained in Britain, the only one between V7753 and V7823 that did not end up in the Middle East, mostly in 1941.  A batch of 20 W and Z serial Hurricanes on "R.134" shipped to Takoradi on 4 April 1941 are all marked "Not Tropicalised", so the assumption is the rest were.

 

V7774 was part of a group of Hurricanes that were presumably "bought" during wings week and given appropriate names, whether the name survived any repainting is unknown.

 

V7773 Surrey

V7774 Cheltenham Queen.

V7775 Sussex

V7776 Spirit of R.F.C.

V7777 Go To It

V7778 Vicy

V7779 Alma Baker

V7780 Alma Baker Malaya

V7795 Alma Baker Australia

V7796 Alma Baker New Zealand

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large_000000.jpg

Note that V7780 has had the De Havilland prop I mentioned and the trop filter added.   

Hard to tel much about colour from the above, does not look like desert scheme though

 

The image of V7774 has neither of these. 

For prop info https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234980181-hawker-hurricane-propellers-and-spinners-a-modellers-guide/

 

 

ABSRlIrcG-LfBHcn0hr5jEl_h7ACFYUg2IEY7LES

 

Note also the inscription behind the cockpit, i presume this is Cheltenam Queen.    Given this is a factory shot, there is likely a better quality copy "out there"

 

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4 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

 

large_000000.jpg

Note that V7780 has had the De Havilland prop I mentioned and the trop filter added.   

Hard to tel much about colour from the above, does not look like desert scheme though

 

The image of V7774 has neither of these. 

For prop info https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234980181-hawker-hurricane-propellers-and-spinners-a-modellers-guide/

 

 

ABSRlIrcG-LfBHcn0hr5jEl_h7ACFYUg2IEY7LES

 

Note also the inscription behind the cockpit, i presume this is Cheltenam Queen.    Given this is a factory shot, there is likely a better quality copy "out there"

 

 

The thing is,.... the propeller was removed during crating and a DH prop could just as easily have been re fitted at Takoradi,... where these Hurricane`s (including early Mk.IIc`s) are being uncrated and assembled. Many Hurricane`s arrived in Takoradi without Vokes filters and some even entered service in the Middle East and Malta without them fitted,..... although the job was usually carried out at Egypt based MU`s if it had not been done already. As for colour scheme,...... only a handful of Mk.I`s went oversea`salready painted in desert colours,..... it was the responsibility of the Egypt based MU`s to modify the scheme for desert areas where needed,..... which lasted until 1942ish;

Hurris-at-Takoradi-incl-Mk-IIc-s.jpg

 

Also,..... here is another aircraft from the batch, V7779,.... serving with 451 Sqn RAAF,..... Note it has by now received a desert camouflage scheme;

Hurri-Mk-I-v7779-451-Sqn-RAAF-Heliopolis

 

Cheers

          Tony

Edited by tonyot
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Hawkers are known for taking one photograph and then touching it up to represent several aircraft.  Although the way this one was posed, this seems unlikely.

 

I don't quite see why a different prop would be used to assemble an aircraft that had one prop delivered in its crate. especially an inferior one.  However between one photo and another is a considerable space if time when such things could happen.

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17 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

I don't quite see why a different prop would be used to assemble an aircraft that had one prop delivered in its crate. especially an inferior one.

The photo shows V7774 was built with a Rotol prop, but is not tropicalised.

 

From photos, ALL Tropical Mk.I's had the De Havilland Hurricane prop and spinner fitted.   I don't know that De Havilland unit when fitted with the constant speed modification was in inferior to the Rotol unit either. 

 

An example is R4118, when found, R4118 had DH prop unit fitted, but as built, and in the only photo in UK service, has a Rotol prop fitted.  

 

Why this is the case i don't know,  but  from photos,  all the trop Mk.I's have the DH unit,  perhaps because of the metal blades? 

 

 I know they Mk.II and IV all have Rotol props usually with wood composite blades, though these were standard on the Mk.II,  and perhaps some now lost request from ME for the metal bladed props continued to be fulfilled for the Mk.I

 

Thinking about it,  the only Mk.I I have seen out of NW Europe with Rotol unit is the one with Rhodesian Air Training Group,  and that was in 1945.

 

 

 

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Re Rotol and DH Props on tropicalised Mk.I`s,....... I`ve always thought that it was in case a carrier delivery was required,....... either from the Med or into Takoradi,... but don`t quote me on that! Something about take off distance maybe?

Sea Hurricane Mk.Ib`s all had DH props fitted too and I`ve read that the Rotol could knock the centre of gravity out due to the weight of the hook,... hence why it was not fitted? I know the Shuttleworth Sea Hurri Mk.I has a Rotol,..... but apparently the C of G has been altered?  

DH equipped Hurri`s in Malta were converted where possible with Rotols brought in by submarine and the Dockyard workshops produced replacement blades as well as reconditioning damaged hubs from crashed aircraft,...... the Rotols were highly prized for their climb performance.

Cheers

            Tony

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5 minutes ago, tonyot said:

I know the Shuttleworth Sea Hurri Mk.I has a Rotol,..... but apparently the C of G has been altered? 

IIRC, the Shuttleworth Sea Hurricane has a fibreglass hook fitted.  I think @Work In Progress  mentioned this.

 

The DH unit was taken off and used in their Spitfire,  and the ES/9 Rotol unit then fitted.

it is shown fitted here in 1960

https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1458898

 

as for the DH unit on trop Mk.I's,  i don't know why, but I have not seen anything else in photos.  

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  • Mike changed the title to Hawker Hurricane ID help
5 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

IIRC, the Shuttleworth Sea Hurricane has a fibreglass hook fitted.  I think @Work In Progress  mentioned this.

 

The DH unit was taken off and used in their Spitfire,  and the ES/9 Rotol unit then fitted.

it is shown fitted here in 1960

https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1458898

 

as for the DH unit on trop Mk.I's,  i don't know why, but I have not seen anything else in photos.  

I know about the propeller switch mate,.... I thought it was a bit strange but they know far more about aeroplanes than I do!  

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One reason would be the long supply chain - having only one propeller type simplifies matters and improves serviceability.  The other is that the opposition was seen to be weaker so the better type was retained "on the island".  Hurricane + DH was good enough to cope with the Italian opposition.  Retention of large numbers of superior aircraft in the UK is a consistent theme during WW2.

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3 hours ago, gingerbob said:

I think it was a bit more systematic than that- though certainly cases would arise...

For avoidance of doubt I agree with this in the context of the specific wartime case under discussion: I was referring to the Shuttleworth Collection's prop swaps

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Wow. Thanks all for the input. This is indeed "Cheltenham Queen" so glad to get the confirmation of the V7774 serial.

 

I'm thinking to pass the time at Christmas I might have a go at making a 1:48 scale model. It's most for my own amusement so I thought I'd use the Airfrix Mk.I kit.

 

Not being a Hurricane expert I just wanted to check - going off the photo and date I'm guessing the dark earth, dark green and sky colour scheme? I noticed it didn't have the sky tail band either. It also looks to me like it's painted in the "B" Scheme? (I'm going off the Bridgewater/Combat Colours #2 book).

 

I figured I'd try and paint as delivered from the factory and maybe try and find some small white letter decals to do the name under the cockpit.

 

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On 11/7/2020 at 12:11 PM, Troy Smith said:

 

large_000000.jpg

Note that V7780 has had the De Havilland prop I mentioned and the trop filter added.   

Hard to tel much about colour from the above, does not look like desert scheme though

 

The image of V7774 has neither of these. 

For prop info https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234980181-hawker-hurricane-propellers-and-spinners-a-modellers-guide/

 

 

ABSRlIrcG-LfBHcn0hr5jEl_h7ACFYUg2IEY7LES

 

Note also the inscription behind the cockpit, i presume this is Cheltenam Queen.    Given this is a factory shot, there is likely a better quality copy "out there"

 

I suppose the town that stumped up the cash for it ought to have got a few freebie photos in appreciation.  Wonder if they made it to the town museum?

 

https://www.cheltenhammuseum.org.uk/contact/

 

Is there a better picture in the Air Britain presentation aircraft tome?  One of those books (like Consolidated Mess) where I blinked and missed it.

 

 

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21 hours ago, OneEighthBit said:

I'm thinking to pass the time at Christmas I might have a go at making a 1:48 scale model. It's most for my own amusement so I thought I'd use the Airfrix Mk.I kit.

if you wish  to represent the photo, you need a new spinner, get a few more posts and when you hit 100 you can ask in the wanted section for one,  Hasegawa Mk.I Hurricane kits all come with a surplus long spinner, which is most like a CM/1 spinner,  from the photo and looking at the image, the CM/1 is the commoner spinner used early on in production. 

If this sounds vague... 

see https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235078582-hurricane-rotol-spinners-the-cm1-vs-es9-quest/

 

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234980181-hawker-hurricane-propellers-and-spinners-a-modellers-guide/

 

I don't know if there is a another source,  they maybe an AM one.    

 

Quote

 

Not being a Hurricane expert I just wanted to check - going off the photo and date I'm guessing the dark earth, dark green and sky colour scheme?

yes

Quote

I noticed it didn't have the sky tail band either.

came in Nov 1940, so depends when V7774 was built.   Looks to be standard factory markings as applied from August 1940.

Hawker%20Hurricane%20Camo%20&%20Marks_Pa

the Aug 1940, if not clear is the 27" high fin flash with 3x 8" stripes, and the 45 inch underwing roundel,  both the upper and lower wing 80" inch from tip to roundel centre.

see here

https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Modeling-References/Camoflage-Markings/03-Hawker-Hurricane

 

Quote

It also looks to me like it's painted in the "B" Scheme?

there looks to be a demarcation near vertical just before the aerial mast. 

I can't see the horizontal demarcation below the cockpit, so looks more A scheme.

1105660-17313-23-720.jpg

Quote

(I'm going off the Bridgewater/Combat Colours #2 book).

Not to be relied upon.  

Classic example of a guide that you need to know the subject to use, so you know what is wrong and what is not. 

To be fair, it's 20 years old, and a lot more information and cross referencing,    has become available with the rise of specialist forums.   

Only problem with this is you need to have a knowledge of the subject to filter those.   

Britmodeller is very good for this kind of information in general,  having members familiar with what has been published commercially, and what has been added from forums.

 

HTH

 

 

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On 11/7/2020 at 10:58 PM, Troy Smith said:

IIRC, the Shuttleworth Sea Hurricane has a fibreglass hook fitted.  I think @Work In Progress  mentioned this.

 

The DH unit was taken off and used in their Spitfire,  and the ES/9 Rotol unit then fitted.

it is shown fitted here in 1960

https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/view/1458898

 

as for the DH unit on trop Mk.I's,  i don't know why, but I have not seen anything else in photos.  

Hiya Troy,.... I almost said that about the hook,.... I`d remembered reading it somewhere but as I wasn`t sure I decided not to say anything,..... thanks for confirming what I thought. 

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  • 5 months later...
On 11/7/2020 at 1:11 PM, Troy Smith said:

 

large_000000.jpg

Note that V7780 has had the De Havilland prop I mentioned and the trop filter added.   

Hard to tel much about colour from the above, does not look like desert scheme though

 

The image of V7774 has neither of these. 

For prop info https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234980181-hawker-hurricane-propellers-and-spinners-a-modellers-guide/

 

 

ABSRlIrcG-LfBHcn0hr5jEl_h7ACFYUg2IEY7LES

 

Note also the inscription behind the cockpit, i presume this is Cheltenam Queen.    Given this is a factory shot, there is likely a better quality copy "out there"

 

 

Sorry to dreg this out of the depths again but am getting close to be able to tackle making a model of this.

I just wanted some opinion on something i read in the AMO's on marking - I noticed this is from 1942 but don't know if it's relevant:

"(ii) Special markings may not be carried, except-
(a) by aircraft of allied air forces operating under R.A.F. control or when it is desired to distinguish particular or presentation aircraft. In such cases a marking not larger than 9 in. by 6 in. or an inscription in 2 in. grey letters, may be carried on the sides of the fuselage forward of the trailing edge of the wing, on the authority of the command headquarters concerned."

 

As Cheltenham Queen was a presentation aircraft(?) does this apply? i.e. would the name been in grey 2 inch letters? Or, as per the picture of V7780 Alma Baker Malaya, some what more stylised and possibly coloured?

Just after opinions really - finding/making a suitable decal might be tricky though I have, rather fittingly, found suitable white scaled letters in the typeface "Cheltenham"

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