Best 1/48 Hawk T.1a kit

[Pappy]

G'day people,

 

What is the collective wisdom as to the best Hawk kit around currently.. I am looking primarily at the Hobby Boss, Airfix, Revell and Italeri kits and am leaning towards to Revell or HB kits. The HB has the early seats (big headboxes) but otherwise they all seem pretty comparable?

 

cheers,

 

Pappy

[exdraken]

Hi, 

All build up nicely into an early Hawk,

The HB a bit overscaled afaik, the Italeri has a bit a dubious front area...

Airfix is the least detailed.

Others know more for sure, as I die not build any as of yet!

Revell has the best Hawk, but it is 1/32

 

[MT1]

Hi, I have just finished the 1/48 HB Hawk T1a and am very pleased with the result. The biggest issue is for some reason HB decided the Hawk wing would look better with multiple wing fences on the leading edge. As BAe decided the Hawk could fly perfectly well without theses additions they didn't manufacture the Hawk with them. That means you will need to attack the wing with knife and sand paper to remove these additions.  Bizarrely the HB box artwork doesn't show the pesky fences 🤔 As exdraken mentions the ejector seats are from the early Hawks, the difference is quite noticeable so be careful when choosing your time period.  I'm not sure when the seats were upgraded (1990's?) but it is possible that some of the decal options ( 74R Squadron ) wont match the seats. Also as far as i know the RAF Hawks only flew/fly with the inner wing pylons, i dont remember seeing any with 4 pylons. I'm pretty sure the bomb option is also wrong as it seems to be American. The kit does however have cannon, AIM 9 and SNEB rocket pods all of which were/are used. Decals options for; early 80's camo 63(R) Sqn TWU, black 74(R) Sqn and ETPS. Hope this has been of some help, happy building. 

 

Mark

[Pappy]

G'day Mark, and Werner,

 

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply.

 

Werner what are the concerns with the Italeri nose?

 

Mark, it was actually me that mentioned the early seats. Iam leaning towards an early Hawk and since the HB lkit already includes these (in fact they are the only kit with early seats) that is a plus for me. I think that the wing fence issue may be a case of HB wanting to release a Hawk 'family' of kits and attempting to manufacture a common wing with multiple wing fences so that you remove the wing fences that don't belong. It is annoying but may explain the issue? Same  for the multiplw hardpoints and bomb option as this may be more relevant for a T-45. Are the wing hardpoint positions flashed over or do they come already opened?

 

cheers,

 

Pappy

[Giorgio N]

4 hours ago, MT1 said:

Hi, I have just finished the 1/48 HB Hawk T1a and am very pleased with the result. The biggest issue is for some reason HB decided the Hawk wing would look better with multiple wing fences on the leading edge. As BAe decided the Hawk could fly perfectly well without theses additions they didn't manufacture the Hawk with them. That means you will need to attack the wing with knife and sand paper to remove these additions.  Bizarrely the HB box artwork doesn't show the pesky fences 🤔

 

 

Actually BAe at some point decided that the Hawk could fly even better with similar additions and manufactured the Mk.60s export aircraft with 3 small fences per wing, in addition to the original large fence of the T.1s and Mk.50s.

Hobbyboss however didn't realise that the extra fences were not on the T.1 and used in this kit the same wing of their Mk.67. And actually messed the latter too, as the fences on the Mk.60s are not as long as in the HB kit. And there's more, as looking at pictures of the other variants proposed by HB they seem to have messed the fences on the Hawk 200 too....

I don't have any of the HB kits so can't comment on other accuracy issues. In a sense it's better to have the fences moulded on the wing as adding the fences is more difficult than removing, but would have been nice to have some proper Mk.60s fences rather than the too long ones they give us. Removing them for a T.1 will be easy enough but I wonder what other mistakes HB may have made...

 

Of the older Airfix and Italeri kits, in general the British kit is more accurate but the Italeri kit is probably nicer in terms of mould and detail. For a while the Airfix kit could be found for very low prices while the Italeri kit initially was not particularly cheap, so much that it was sometime possible to get an Airfix kit and a Neomega cockpit set for the price of the Italeri offering. Today things have changed as the most recent Italeri can be found for quite good prices. I believe both are currently OOP though

[Pappy]

G'day Geogio,

 

Thanks for a detailed response. The early seats are the main attraction point of the HB kit for me, otherwise I would prefer the Italeri kit and then the Airfix kit in order of preference. Airfix usually get the shape right, and detail is then a matter of personal taste, skill an/or budget if you can afford to throw aftermarket at it.. I may be cheaper just to go for the 1/32 Revell kit as the Hawk is not a big jet but I don't want to venture in to the larger scale

 

cheers,

 

Pappy

 

[MT1]

21 hours ago, Pappy said:

G'day Mark, and Werner,

 

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply.

 

Werner what are the concerns with the Italeri nose?

 

Mark, it was actually me that mentioned the early seats. Iam leaning towards an early Hawk and since the HB lkit already includes these (in fact they are the only kit with early seats) that is a plus for me. I think that the wing fence issue may be a case of HB wanting to release a Hawk 'family' of kits and attempting to manufacture a common wing with multiple wing fences so that you remove the wing fences that don't belong. It is annoying but may explain the issue? Same  for the multiplw hardpoints and bomb option as this may be more relevant for a T-45. Are the wing hardpoint positions flashed over or do they come already opened?

 

cheers,

 

Pappy

Hi Pappy, you will need to drill the holes for the pylons which is why mine is flying clean because i forgot (too impatient for my own good). 

[MT1]

19 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

 

Actually BAe at some point decided that the Hawk could fly even better with similar additions and manufactured the Mk.60s export aircraft with 3 small fences per wing, in addition to the original large fence of the T.1s and Mk.50s.

Hobbyboss however didn't realise that the extra fences were not on the T.1 and used in this kit the same wing of their Mk.67. And actually messed the latter too, as the fences on the Mk.60s are not as long as in the HB kit. And there's more, as looking at pictures of the other variants proposed by HB they seem to have messed the fences on the Hawk 200 too....

I don't have any of the HB kits so can't comment on other accuracy issues. In a sense it's better to have the fences moulded on the wing as adding the fences is more difficult than removing, but would have been nice to have some proper Mk.60s fences rather than the too long ones they give us. Removing them for a T.1 will be easy enough but I wonder what other mistakes HB may have made...

 

Of the older Airfix and Italeri kits, in general the British kit is more accurate but the Italeri kit is probably nicer in terms of mould and detail. For a while the Airfix kit could be found for very low prices while the Italeri kit initially was not particularly cheap, so much that it was sometime possible to get an Airfix kit and a Neomega cockpit set for the price of the Italeri offering. Today things have changed as the most recent Italeri can be found for quite good prices. I believe both are currently OOP though

Thanks Giorgio, i didn't know that some of the export Hawks had different wings, any idea why? I guess i owe HB half an apology. 

Have you come across Premiere Kits? there are a couple of Hawk T1a in Kingkits sale section at the moment and the Red Arrow Hawk is very reasonably priced. I've not come across Premiere so if anyone has past experience would love to hear. 

 

all the best

Mark 

[exdraken]

23 hours ago, Pappy said:

Werner what are the concerns with the Italeri nose?

 

 

As I said, I did not build it yet, but it seems a bit skinny mainly

 

or here a fix:

 

let us know how yours will proceed and what you think of ost

[Giorgio N]

2 hours ago, MT1 said:

Thanks Giorgio, i didn't know that some of the export Hawks had different wings, any idea why? I guess i owe HB half an apology. 

Have you come across Premiere Kits? there are a couple of Hawk T1a in Kingkits sale section at the moment and the Red Arrow Hawk is very reasonably priced. I've not come across Premiere so if anyone has past experience would love to hear. 

 

all the best

Mark 

 

Mark, I'll get back to you later on the fences evolution. These changed a few times over the various Hawk variants.

I can in the meantime comment on the Premiere kits: very basic, fiddly fit and a few inaccurate areas. Think of it as something like a scaled up Matchbox kit. There was a time when Premiere kits were flogged for as little as a fiver, for the simple reason that nobody wanted them.. for good reasons

[Seahawk]

Not my scale, you understand, but idle curiosity prompts me to ask which rear fuselages the various 1/48 candidates have.  The recent 1/72 Revell Hawk slips up in having the late seats but the early rear fuselage.

[Shaun]

The seats changed around mid 80's, around the same time as the T1a upgrade to carry the Aim-9 Sidewinder.

Have a look though photo's, some early air defence schemed still had early seats, by late 80's all had the narrow head box.

[MT1]

On 07/11/2020 at 20:29, Giorgio N said:

 

Mark, I'll get back to you later on the fences evolution. These changed a few times over the various Hawk variants.

I can in the meantime comment on the Premiere kits: very basic, fiddly fit and a few inaccurate areas. Think of it as something like a scaled up Matchbox kit. There was a time when Premiere kits were flogged for as little as a fiver, for the simple reason that nobody wanted them.. for good reasons

Hi Giorgio, i made one or two Matchbox kits in the late 80's so i'll give the Premiere Hawk a miss even if it is a bargain. 

I've found out that the Hawk wing fences had to do with wing stall. During flight testing there would be little buffet warning and then wing dip when the aircraft stalled. Although recovery was standard it wasn't acceptable, however, the manufacturer was under time pressure to get the Hawk in service with the RAF. A fix was found involving something around the flaps but this left the aircraft with a slightly higher stalling speed, this was within safety limits for the RAF and so was accepted. The fences were a longer term fix and i think lowered the stalling speed so it was more acceptable for the T45 and export customers. ( Looking at pics of the T45 it seems there was quite change in wing design). 

Happy modelling 

Mark

[Giorgio N]

Thanks Mark

I have a presentation on the Hawk that I hope discusses the evolution of the fences, will have to read it in more detail.

The T-45 does indeed have a different wing shape, with squared tips and leading edge slats among the various modifications.

[Pappy]

G'day people,

 

Some great info, please it coming. While we are on the subject of wings I have a wing related question. The 1/72 Revell T.1a kit provides two sets of underwing pylons and the Airfix equivalent only an inboard pair. The Revell instructions indicate that both wing underwing hard points (i.e. four in total) can be used?

 

Does the RAF Hawk T.1a have two hard points per wing/side and has this always been the case?

 

Most pictures only seem to show one pair of inboard pylons. The matter is further muddled as the 1/72 Revell kit has an early type rear fuselage but later style seats, whilst the Airfix 1/72 has the later, modified rear fuselage and terrible seats!

 

I have decided to go with the 1/48 Italeri kit because it was available and I managed to get a second hand kit for about half the asking price of the Airfix and HB kits. The Italeri kit only has the inboard pair of pylons which suits me. Still, I wish I had the early style seats of the HB kit

 

cheers,

 

Pappy

Edited November 13, 2020 by Pappy

[Giorgio N]

Only inboard pylons for the RAF T.1 and T.1a. Some kits offer both pairs but the outer were only on export aircraft. Not that it's a bad thing for us modellers as better have them in case we want to build a Hawk in different markings. 

 

Revell made a bit of a mess in the rear fuselage of what is generally a nice kit. They reproduced the early type and I have reservations on the shape too. It can be modified quite easily in reality and of course if you want to build a early Hawk it can be fine as it is. The seats however are the later type and I don't think there's any aftermarket replacement for the early type. 

If interested, I can post a couple of pictures of how I modified the rear fuselage, using only plasticard.

Mind, there is a resin replacement around, can't remember from whom

[Pappy]

G'day Giorgio,

 

I would be very interested in seeing how you modified the back end of the Revell kit. I currently have a WIP of the 1/72 Revell Hawk kit in the Jadar Revell hawk GB - look for the Humdrum Hawk thread. I had a go at modifying the Revell seats to backdate them, it is not super accurate but under a closed canopy withseated pilots it may pass a t aquick glance. Thank you for answering so quickly as well,

 

cheers,

 

Pappy

 

Edited November 13, 2020 by Pappy

[gingerbob]

And for the even more ignorant, can you say a bit more about this "early vs late" rear fuselage?  First I've heard of it.  (And I mean just that, not that I doubt you.)

Edited November 13, 2020 by gingerbob

[Giorgio N]

No problem Pappy ! I had taken the pictures as part of a previous group build, so it's easy to repost them here. First of all let's see the problem by comparing the Revell rear end with the Airfix one, that correctly represents the later style:

 

 

The rear fillet on the Revell kit is a separate part, so it's not present here. You can also see other differences in the two fuselage ends, IMHO Airfix is better and some of the curves in the Revell kit are too accentuated. Unfortunately there's no easy solution for these so I just focused on the very end.

 

I will repeat here what I wrote in the past on this same model;

I started by gluing a 0.5mm plasticard piece on top of the rear fuselage. This was slightly longer than needed to allow blending into the existing curvature. Then I started sanding. to a more stramlined shape. I then glued a 0.5mm plastirod strip at the very edge of the rear fuselage and applied filler from there to a point beyond the lower plasticard part. Then it was time for sanding, a lot of sanding ! I reduced the thickness of the rear end plasticard to around 0.75mm while trying to get a flat area from a point under the rudder to the end. I should point out that I used 2 0.5 mm bits as I didn't have plasticard of the right thickness, I could have uased a single 0.75-0.8mm thick bit. Another important thing for this kind of work is using a filler with good mechanical properties, here I used a 2-component epoxy filler.

After all the sanding, this is what I got:

 

 

Really the idea is to glue a plasticard "wedge" over the rear end. As plasticard is sold in sheets of fixed thickness, the best way is to glue a thicker sheet on top and then start sanding until you get to the kind of shape in the picture. The upper side is practically flat except where meets the fuselage sides, where it's rounded.

Here's a picture showing better showing the result from the top:

 

 

Notice how I also glued a section of very thin plasticard on the rear vertical wall, as the two fuselage halves here didn't fit well and I had a small step. The plasticard bit served to eliminate the step.

Of course at that point I had to scratchbuild a new longer fillet, but this is the easy part: cut another piece of plasticard of the right shape and then sand to the right section following pictures of the real thing. Don't have a close-up picture but here's one showing the model being painted:

 

 

A word on the epoxy: I used a generic epoxy filler I bought at a car accessories shop. Halfords will sure have something right for the job. It is also possible to male the whole job out of plasticard only but I decided that I preferred to sand some plasticard and some filler rather than sand plasticard only.

 

 

[Giorgio N]

6 minutes ago, gingerbob said:

And for the even more ignorant, can you say a bit more about this "early vs late" rear fuselage?  First I've heard of it.  (And I mean just that, not that I doubt you.)

 

The early rear fuselage was slightly lower and featured a shorter rear fin fillet. Later this was changed. Mind, there has been more than one style of rear fuselage end on the Hawk ! Best place to point you at is this discussion on the Revell kit, with several pictures posted by the Britmodeller community

 

 

[gingerbob]

Thanks Giorgio, and note that the thread linked within the above thread has some photos that show the back end fairly well.

 

bob