Bf109 WNr blocks...

[Werdna]

Morning all - hope everyone's staying well...

 

Can anyone point me to a list of 109 WNr blocks.  There is a great list of Fw190 blocks over on the Hobbyvista site, but I've not found anything similar for the 109.  I've probably missed something obvious, but there we are.

 

Context:  I'm particularly interested in the K-4 '332' range, as I'm building 332700 at the moment, and while there are documented b/w images for this a/c, there are a couple of colour pics (apparently genuine, rather than colorised) floating around of other K-4s in a similar range which might help with the guesswork on the colours, if it can be established they are from the same block.  For instance, the colour pic of 332884 appears outwardly similar in pattern.

 

Hope I'm making sense.  Thanks in advance for any info..  

 

[Super Aereo]

"Messerschmitt Bf 109 K" and "Messerschmitt Bf 109 K - Camouflage and Markings" by Poruba (JaPo) are still the best references around, I think.

 

[Werdna]

Thanks, you may be right.  Unfortunately, I don't possess those references right now, hence the question..  ...

[JackG]

Have had this site bookmarked for a while, don't know if there is anything better...

 

https://me109.info/web.php?lang=en&auth=e&name=werknummernbloecke

 

 

regards,

Jack

[Werdna]

15 minutes ago, JackG said:

Have had this site bookmarked for a while, don't know if there is anything better...

 

https://me109.info/web.php?lang=en&auth=e&name=werknummernbloecke

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

That's brilliant thanks, just the kind of thing I was after.  Looks like all the K-4s from that block (and others) were Regensburg machines, so I would guess (?) the patterns & colours within the 332-333 block would be broadly very similar.  

[Peter Roberts]

7 hours ago, JackG said:

Have had this site bookmarked for a while, don't know if there is anything better...

 

https://me109.info/web.php?lang=en&auth=e&name=werknummernbloecke

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

What a great website! Thanks Jack!

[SafetyDad]

19 hours ago, Super Aereo said:

"Messerschmitt Bf 109 K" and "Messerschmitt Bf 109 K - Camouflage and Markings" by Poruba (JaPo) are still the best references around, I think.

 

 

+1. No competition. Nothing comes close.

JaPo have analysed the differing camo schemes meticulously, allowing a viewer to be pretty sure of the manufacturer just from the camo pattern.

I'll have a look in my copies for any information on 332700 - you might be in luck as this aircraft appears in a number of post-war shots.

 

SD

[Werdna]

Thanks SD.  There's four pics of 700 that I'm aware of - all partially dismantled with the port wing missing. A front view (which doesn't reveal much info), a front three-quarter view with what appears to be a group of allied airmen standing in front, plus two port side views (one from a distance), parked in front of what appears to be an Italian SM.75 transport (also in a partially dismantled state).  Any others would be gratefully received..  

[Red Dog]

From 'Bf 109 Late Versions - Camouflage & Markings' by Krzysztof W. Wolowski (MMP Books)

 

 

Caption of that exact same picture from your linked site of 'White 8' reads -

 

'Bf 109K-4 W.Nr 332884 probably 9./JG 3 and possibly at Leck, May 1945. The entire camouflage can be discerned here, including: cowling painted RLM 77 and 75; fuselage painted 81 and 82, over 84; and vertical tail painted 75 with small, rather blurred blotches of 82. (USAF)'

 

RLM 84 in the book is the greenish grey colour often used on late war fuselages sides and lower surfaces. Also sometimes called RLM 99. A mix of 76 & 02? But let's not open that can of worms.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2020 by Red Dog

[Werdna]

Thanks Red Dog - the colour call out was pretty much what I'd guessed at for white 8.  The only thing not covered there is the upper wing camo, which I'm guessing would either be a combination of 81/82, 75/82 or 77/82, based on other similar a/c.     Also, 332700 appears to differ from above in terms of the tailplane colours.  The tailplane on 700 (forward of the rudder), seems to be a lot lighter than 75, possibly 77 or 76.  I don't think it's just a sun position/reflection difference, either.

 

My leaning is towards 76 for the tailplane section and 77/82 for the wing camo - which is what I would guess at looking (ie squinting my eyes and imagining) at the '884' pic.  I'm open to other suggestions

[Red Dog]

I would agree with you on your assessment of possible colours Werdna.

Wing uppers 77/82 - Not confirmed but likely and seen on other a/c

Rear fuselage/tail  - part under the rear tailplane seems lighter than the rest of the lower fuselage. Possibly 76, (looks the same on 'White 8'). Upper part same 76 but with mottling (your choice of 75 or 82 or both)

Rudder - Who knows. Could be a replacement so have fun with it.

 

As with all grainy, from a distance, 75 year old photos nobody can categorically say your right or wrong. As we know at that time of the war things were hectic and in limited supply. Anything went. There's still much debate about whether 83 was green or blue!

I thinks there's enough info from pics of 332700 and others in that range to make a reasonable guess at colours.

Replacement parts always make for an interesting scheme. 

Don't get too obsessed researching and let it take you away from the hobby of sticking plastic together.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2020 by Red Dog

[SafetyDad]

OK Andrew here we go:

 

332700 features on the rear cover of the first JaPo book on the Bf109K-4 and they speculate thus:

 

 

Bear in mind this book is some age now (1997). 

 

In their second volume the authors are much more systematic and analytical, proposing camo schemes according to serial number batches. So for the 332*** batch we are presented with this (which is part of a larger 8 os 109K painting directive):

 

 

and this overall:

 

 

 

You'll note that this last scheme refers to 'dark' and 'light' colours as 109Ks were finished in dark grey/green, brownviolet/green and also a light grey (77?)/green - very striking indeed. 

 

Finally the MMP book also features 332700, presenting it like this

 

 

This broadly agrees with the JaPo interpretation, with differences on nose and tail. I'm not personally convinced about the grey/green tail they propose as there's no equivalent in the JaPo books but there you go.  Some of the MMP colour callouts elsewhere in the book are a bit debatable in my view, and I feel that JaPo have the edge in their analysis.

 

SD

 

 

Sources:

              Poruba T & Janda A (1997) Messerschmitt Bf 109K  JaPo Hradec Kralove, Czech Republic

              Poruba T & Mol K (2000) Messerschmitt Bf 109K Camouflage and Marking JaPo Hradec Kralove, Czech Republic

              Wolowski K W (2010) Bf 109 Late Versions Camouflage and Markings Mushroom Model Publications Hampshire

 

All images posted for the purposes of discussion (and intentionally photographed, rather than scanned to discourage duplication)

[Werdna]

That's brilliant SD, thanks very much  

 

It looks like my colours/pattern will be most similar to the last image, with the 76 tail.  However, I can't help thinking they've missed a trick on the nose/cowling.  It really does look to me like there are just two plain colours with no mottling.  The pic here shows 332700 with what looks like two plain colours (likely 77 and 75), in an almost identical fashion to the pic of 332884 posted earlier.  I'm inclined to go with that..

 

I really do need to get hold of these books  

[SafetyDad]

43 minutes ago, Werdna said:

The pic here shows 332700 with what looks like two plain colours (likely 77 and 75), in an almost identical fashion to the pic of 332884 posted earlier.  I'm inclined to go with that..

 

I really do need to get hold of these books  

I hadn't seen that picture before - thanks! That 77/75 (or 82) combination  will make a very distinctive model.

 

 

SD

[fastterry]

Just to go a little further, I have the 2000 JaPo book on the K and the diagram above says no paint on anything except the cowl, on the underside. Contrary to Fw190D-9s it seems that the vast majority of late war 109s were painted 76 all over the underside. There is a photo in the book of G-10s manufactured by WNF which only had the ailerons and other small areas in 76 on the underside of the wings but this didn't seem to apply to MTT G-10s & K-4s. I could be wrong but from what I know the late war yellow/green (RLM84) seemed to only be on fuselages on late war 109s. Also the tail including the fin, rudder and tail planes and elevators were made of wood by sub contractors and completely painted before delivery so the comouflage of the tail area didn't necessarily match the fuselage it was attached to. The wings were also made by sub contractors so the upper camo may not have been the same as the tail plane camo. As Red Dog said above you can't be sure of the exact colours and nobody else can be either so go with your best guess and have fun with it.

TRF