Who makes a 1/48 canvas-winged mk1 Hurricane kit?

[jackroadkill]

Forgive me if this has been asked before, I've tried the search function and drawn a blank.  I'm looking for information as to which manufacturers offer a canvas winged Hurricane mk1 in 1/48 as I'd like to build a particular (though fictitious) aircraft that was based in France in 1940.

 

Thanks,

 

JRK

[Des]

There is a conversion available from MDC  -  https://www.modeldesignconstruction.co.uk/details-conversions/77-hurricane-mk-i-fabric-wing.html  - and there also used to be another with a one piece wing and a white metal prop from Heritage but that does not seem to be current.

 

 

[jackroadkill]

Thanks @Des, that's an option to keep in mind.

[gingerbob]

Classic Airframes did a fabric-wing Hurricane KIT, but it'll take some hunting to track one down for a comfortable price.  Otherwise the conversion route should be fairly straightforward (as above)- just pay attention to what kit it is intended for, because that might cause you some difficulties if you try to adapt it to another.

[Ed Russell]

Canvas? It would not fly!

[Graham Boak]

Finest Irish linen.

 

I think that the Windsor may have used canvas, certainly some heavily reinforced fabric.  Amazing how far some designers would go chasing their favourite but obsolete principles.

[jackroadkill]

15 minutes ago, Ed Russell said:

Canvas? It would not fly!

 

Maybe not, but we all talk about propellers, too, don't we?

[alt-92]

7 minutes ago, jackroadkill said:

 

Maybe not, but we all talk about propellers, too, don't we?

Tractor propeller or pusher propeller?

 

[jackroadkill]

1 minute ago, alt-92 said:

Tractor propeller or pusher propeller?

 

 

Exactly; I've heard it said that originally the word meant a pusher.

[Graham Boak]

In railway terms, it still does.  However, I've yet to hear of any ship/boat being propelled (see?) by tractors.  In an aviation context alt-92's usage is correct.  The actual difference between a tractor and pusher propeller is a matter of detail - the adjective only comes into use depending upon where it is mounted on the airframe.  Which then requires attention to detail...  In the context of a Hurricane Mk.I we perhaps should strictly use the term airscrew, as this was normal in the RAF when this type appeared.  However during WW2 propeller was adopted, supposedly because of a request confusing them with aircrew (though personally I think this a bar story).

 

However, either way, the significant differences between linen and canvas is not just a matter of terminology.

[Troy Smith]

59 minutes ago, jackroadkill said:

I'm looking for information as to which manufacturers offer a canvas winged Hurricane mk1 in 1/48 as I'd like to build a particular (though fictitious) aircraft that was based in France in 1940.

 

45 minutes ago, Des said:

There is a conversion available from MDC  -  https://www.modeldesignconstruction.co.uk/details-conversions/77-hurricane-mk-i-fabric-wing.html  - and there also used to be another with a one piece wing and a white metal prop from Heritage but that does not seem to be current.

 

You have 4 options.  

 

1.Find the Classic Airframes kit.  It's OK, based on the Hasegawa kit, so with those faults.  It's been unavailable for over 10 years, and tends not to be cheap.

It has issues. 

see here, which also discusses and details many of the other points mentioned about early Hurricanes.

 

 

2.The one piece wing mentioned by @Des was  originally by Aardvark, and then by Heritage Aviation.  It was for the old tool Airfix kit.    It's unavailable. The wing is too thin head on, as is the Airfix kit, apart from that, it seems pretty decent. 

 

3. The MDC is not great.  They may have redone it, my one has really thick trailing edges, and sorthing that out will destroy a lot of detail, which is neatly done (best part of these)  and is intended for the Hasegawa kit.(unavailable) 

It also has you chop the kit wing at the join of centre section to outer panel.    This is a tricky cut, and then you have joy  of aligning it all and making good.  

 

MDC don't really seem to understand what else needs doing for an standard fabric wing (ie L**** or N**** serial ) as they do not mention specific detail.

 

5 spoke wheels

no 2nd fabric access panel on starboard side.

fabric inner wing panel.

many have a pole radio mast,  

very early planes have a a different windscreen, curved lower edges,  with or without armour, and initial production have even more detail changes.

 

4. convert it yourself. 

The wing planform is the same, remove detail,  add rib tapes, rescribe gun bays and add extra ejector slot, move landing light in one bay.  

You will need plans,  THE plans are the Arthur Bentley ones.  Everything else I'd treat with caution. 

 

 

5 spoke wheels can be made

check what prop, initially it was the two blade,  then a De havilland unit for the Spitfire, (too wide for hurricane nose ring) then the DH Hurricane unit,  which is the one usually retrofitted to replace the 2 blade unit.

see here

 

and, which leads to 5, which is not what asked for, but in light of the above, 

Go 72nd, and use a Airfix fabric wing kit. 

 

A word of caution,  early Hurricanes are more complex than usually realised, and this leads to misinformation and misunderstanding of the details above.   You may read information that is contrary to what I have posted, it's wrong, by this I mean, discussions on here over the years have really added to and clarified many of these details,  and I just collate them. 

There are still quite a few areas about Hurricanes that are to be properly explored as well.   

 

Finally,  it has recently been confirmed (June 2020) that about 50 mid production Mk.I's were built with fabric wings,  with  P**** and V**** serials.  These are BoB era aircraft. 

These are what the kits and conversions listed above will get you without the detail I mention.  

see here, and scroll down

 

 

HTH

[jackroadkill]

12 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

HTH

 

Hi Troy,

 

Thanks, that really does help; I know this is a complicated area (far more so than my limited knowledge allows for).  As the aircraft I want to model is a fictitious BOF one (from the cover of the Pan edition of Derek Robinson's novel "A Piece of Cake") I'm not overly worried about getting serials etc for a particular aircraft, just that it be historically accurate inasmuch as the novel will allow.  It needs a fabric wing and a three-bladed airscrew to be accurate to what's portrayed.

 

I'll have a think about the options that you've outlined and we'll see what looks like the best.

[Troy Smith]

26 minutes ago, jackroadkill said:

I'm not overly worried about getting serials etc for a particular aircraft

they were commonly overpainted in France for security early on, so you see plenty without.

30 minutes ago, jackroadkill said:

As the aircraft I want to model is a fictitious BOF one (from the cover of the Pan edition of Derek Robinson's novel "A Piece of Cake")

this cover?

 

This one?

Nothing to say it's fabric wing.    

 

There were LOTS of metal wing Hurricanes in France,   the RAF lost over 400 Hurricanes. many were brand new,  and were then lost from lack of spares and destroyed in the retreat.

 

the above shows some kind of 'sky' underside,  which is wrong,  only came in in June 1940, after the fall of France.  Some 1 Sq planes did experiment with light blue in France though, so not impossible, and they often just used a individual letter.

 

Make you life easier,  just a new tool Airfix kit, and do it as the above,  a real example,  no codes added,  this is a standard mid production Mk.I, Rotol prop, metal wing, etc, as can built out the box.

 

 

 

You could have got this answer right away by asking the right question,  which is, "what Hurricane kit would do for a BOF plane as shown on Piece of cake cover" 

-insert image- 

 

and that would have saved me telling you how difficult it to get a fabric wing in 1/48th as well......

 

 

I can point you in the direction of real, documented BOF schemes, metal wing with Black whoye underside and fin stripes,  used by 73 Sq ....

[jackroadkill]

18 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

 

This one?

Nothing to say it's fabric wing. 

 

 

Ideally this one.  There are mentions in the text of fabric wings, and also the first instance of a new Hurricane being delivered with alloy-covered wings happens in January 1940 (in the book), so without much in the way of losses yet I think it likely that fabric wings would be prevalent.  However, I'm forced to concede the point that they may have had alloy-winged aircraft; I just like the idea of a ragwing, I suppose.

 

Thanks again for your help - you really know your stuff!

[Graham Boak]

Rather more than Derek Robinson did.  Most of the book is written in such a way as to denigrate military planning and attitudes, the RAF's officers and their class structure.  Sending to France what can be seen as old-fashioned aircraft would fit this bias.  However, as Troy said, there were fabric-winged aircraft among those sent to France, and those with two-blade props too, arguably much less battleworthy.  But by May fabric-winged aircraft sent to France as reinforcements were seen as scraping the bottom of the barrel, which strongly suggests that such were in a small minority.

 

Remember that aircraft would rotate in and out of squadrons without being lost, as their time for major overhauls came up.  A squadron could have had but one metal wing in January and several more in April.

 

Nothing wrong however in liking fabric covering: some Hurricane pilots preferred these as lighter and slightly more agile.  It's far from clear why, but there was considerable variation between individual airframes, so a good A might well have felt better than a poor B, whatever the usual average.

[Troy Smith]

1 minute ago, jackroadkill said:

Ideally this one. 

That is a post August 1941 plane,  Day Fighter scheme, Sky band and spinner, actually has the post May 1942 fin flash.    Sure, you can do a model of this, I can find you photos of a fabric wing Mk.I painted like this, but by this stage in a training unit.......

 

Nothing at all to do with BOF whatever, bit like BoB books with 19 Squadron Spitfires from 1938 repeated again and again.....

 

The cover I posted is at least feasible.   And, unless you really want the bother of rare kits or conversions or both to do a fabric wing,  an easy project.

 

6 minutes ago, jackroadkill said:

and also the first instance of a new Hurricane being delivered with alloy-covered wings happens in January 1940 (in the book), so without much in the way of losses yet I think it likely that fabric wings would be prevalent.  However, I'm forced to concede the point that they may have had alloy-winged aircraft

Off hand, not sure when the first metal wing went to France, and they were mixed.  For that you need serials and dates.

January 1940 is believable.  and Robinson is good on details.   

 

This is an early Hurricane, L2047, with 87 Sq,  nosed over in France 

 

this is April 1940, 73 sq

 

From serials (listed here https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Hurricane/RAF-73Sqn/pages/RAF-73Sqn-TPD-P2559-flown-by-Cobber-Kain-France-May-1940-by-Replic-101B.html) i think Z, W and E (last plane)have fabric wings,  while D, J and X are metal, but I only have one source of the change in N**** of fabric to metal......

 

The problem the Hurricane has is

.....it's not the Spitfire, and as such many fine details are not well researched, or those researches are not commonly available......

[jackroadkill]

Maybe this idea needs to go back to the drawing board; I suppose I could either just do a BOF Hurricane and be happy with that rather than chasing something which doesn't realistically exist.  You've certainly given me plenty of information that would allow me to build an aircraft accurately.

 

Once again, thanks for all your help - it's very much appreciated.