The Dornier Do 17 family STGB chat

[Walter]

5 hours ago, Shorty84 said:

Do you mean the fabric covered areas or the whole airframe?

The whole airframe, from what I've red I don't think they did. 

[Shorty84]

Well, having consulted my 'Bible' (Merrick/Kiroff's 'Luftwaffe camouflage and markings 1933 - 1945') things are quite clear...and not at the same time. I guess it also depends on which timeframe we are talking about as painting standards changed through the lifetime of the Do 17.

Let's start at the beginning. The paint schedule for the Do 17E from 1936 is quite clear: https://www.modelforum.cz/download/file.php?id=1745559&mode=view

• Stoffanstrich (Gesamt): DKH-Spannlack rot J52/22 und DKH-Einheitsverdünnung E52/50 -> Fabric Painting (General): DKH-Dope varnish red J52/22 and DKH-General Thinner E52/50
• Aussenanstrich: ...Die Flugzeuge erhalten den Schutzanstrich auf die vorher mit DKH-Ölgrund L40/41 grundierte Fläche -> Exterior painting: ...The aircraft receive the protective coating (camouflage) on the surface previously primed with DKH-Oilbase L40/41.

The problem here is that prior to 1938, painting standards were a mix of RLM-colours and previous standards. Only in 1938, L.Dv.521/1 1938 standardized painting schedules acc. to RLM-colours (mostly, as there were still exceptions). So in this case we don't know the exact shade of the colours, as no colour cards exist of these pre-war colours. Likely the Dope varnish was some kind of brick red like later fabric primers and L40/41 was some kind of grey.

 

If we talk about later variants things are a bit clearer as they most likely adhered to L.Dv.521/1 1938 (this is the earliest known edition, although it is likely there were earlier ones).

This means that fabric surfaces were treated acc. to Aircraft lacquer sequence No.20 (red primer/RLM02 or camouflage colour/clear coat) and metal surfaces acc. to Aircraft painting schedule No.04 (base coat 7102.- (green)/RLM02 or camouflage colour).

Of note is that 7102.- (green) is not a specified colour but describes the natural colouring (greenish tinge), produced by the colour of the chemicals that went into the formulation. Being translucent, it was further thinned for application, up to a ratio of 10:1.

 

If you ask me now about the exact shade...your guess is as good as mine. I guess it would be sufficient to use a heavily thinned coat of RLM02 so that the metallic surface still shines through. A picture on Page 29 in Merrick's book show a Do 17M which is still partially in primer (wings, engines, elevators) which correspond with the LDv.521/1 rules. Especially on the wing one can see the translucent nature of the primer as the individual metal panels are still discernable.

 

Not sure if I could help you with my wall of text though. As we all know, Luftwaffe colours are a 

Cheers

Markus

[modelling minion]

Just been looking at some 1/48 decals for Do 215's by Owl and noticed they have a couple in what appear to be kind of desert scheme, one of which it claims is Rommel's transport, and another used by ZG1 wearing that units famous wasp marking on the nose. My question is does anybody know if these are factual or not as I can't find any pictures to corroborate them but they would certainly make for interesting models.

[Shorty84]

Regarding the ZG1 machine the profile could be legit. Although it does not show the code, there were machines sporting the wasp emblem: https://www.facebook.com/luftwaffe2019/photos/our-friend-michael-gt-send-us-this-beautiful-photograph-of-a-dornier-do-215-with/767321660484739/

 

Regarding desert schemed Do 215s, they are even rarer (if they exist at all) than photos of similar coloured Do 17s. I guess you are referring to Do 215, T5+NC from the Owl decal sheet, right? One fact that makes me suspicious is that the code 'T5' is usually assigned to Aufkl. Gr. Ob.d.L (a recce unit) and not Flugbereitschaft Italuft. While some Do 215s were used as personal machines for high ranking officers they were in standard camo. The only photo which remotely looks like a desert camo can be found here although its quality is too bad to be certain: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=32596

 

Cheers

Markus

 

[modelling minion]

10 hours ago, Shorty84 said:

Regarding the ZG1 machine the profile could be legit. Although it does not show the code, there were machines sporting the wasp emblem: https://www.facebook.com/luftwaffe2019/photos/our-friend-michael-gt-send-us-this-beautiful-photograph-of-a-dornier-do-215-with/767321660484739/

 

Regarding desert schemed Do 215s, they are even rarer (if they exist at all) than photos of similar coloured Do 17s. I guess you are referring to Do 215, T5+NC from the Owl decal sheet, right? One fact that makes me suspicious is that the code 'T5' is usually assigned to Aufkl. Gr. Ob.d.L (a recce unit) and not Flugbereitschaft Italuft. While some Do 215s were used as personal machines for high ranking officers they were in standard camo. The only photo which remotely looks like a desert camo can be found here although its quality is too bad to be certain: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=32596

 

Cheers

Markus

 

Thanks Markus,

 

Yes they are the ones I was referring to. I thought that the one from ZG1 was the more likely of the two as I am well aware of various fighter or zerstorer units using various bomber types as transports so thanks for linking the picture, I think a diorama with a Do 215 parked next to one of the units Bf 110's would look quite good.

 

The desert coloured ones do seem to be more problematic, although the picture in your link from 12oclockhigh does clearly show an aircraft that has a light colour scheme. Now whether that is a desert colour or all over RLM65 as seen on some Ju 88's is just about impossible to tell, perhaps Owl have access to other pictures that show the codes of the 2 aircraft they depict in these schemes.

 

🇺🇦

[Shorty84]

10 hours ago, modelling minion said:

perhaps Owl have access to other pictures that show the codes of the 2 aircraft they depict in these schemes.

Maybe, or they were a bit 'creative' in order to offer interesting marking schemes. Not to accuse Owl of anything but with the years I grew cautious about profiles/decal schemes one cannot find any photo to verify. I mean, there are enough publications which show the original picture and profile next to each other and still the profile has notable errors which are visible even at a casual glance.

Just take the desert scheme Eduard supplies with their reboxed ICM Do 17Z. This profile was published in various books and offered by a few decal manufacturers but no definitive photo seems to exist which verifies a desert camo. Unfortunately, too often such things get repeated for years and years and become 'facts'.

 

So for me (and your mileage may vary of course), either there is a photo verifying a profile or I treat it as speculative.

 

On the other hand, if you want to see something really rare: How about a Do 217 in desert camo?

 

Cheers

Markus

Edited May 23, 2022 by Shorty84

[modelling minion]

38 minutes ago, Shorty84 said:

Maybe, or they were a bit 'creative' in order to offer interesting marking schemes. Not to accuse Owl of anything but with the years I grew cautious about profiles/decal schemes one cannot find any photo to verify.

Very true Markus, I always try to find pictures to back up any profiles/decal options.

41 minutes ago, Shorty84 said:

Just take the desert scheme Eduard supplies with their reboxed ICM Do 17Z.

And this proves my point perfectly, which is why I am not building mine in that scheme as much as I would have liked to. As you say this scheme (with slight differences) has been offered by quite a few manufacturers with absolutely no clear pictures to back up their interpretation.

51 minutes ago, Shorty84 said:

On the other hand, if you want to see something really rare: How about a Do 217 in desert camo?

I came across that picture whilst trying to look for pictures of the desert Do 17Z, and have been looking for a reasonable priced Do 217 since! It has everything we need really, its in colour, is quite clear and even shows the code letters on the fuselage. Makes you wonder why nobody does decals for it doesn't it.🤔

 

🇺🇦

[vppelt68]

I'm getting more and more interested in building my Do 215B-5 night fighter in day fighter colours. How many Luftwaffe subjects are there in RLM 74/75/76 without any theater bands or -wing tips, mottling or even a splinter scheme but in curvy blotches? Not that many, I believe! V-P

[modelling minion]

9 minutes ago, vppelt68 said:

Not that many, I believe!

Hardly any, and it makes for a striking scheme VP.

 

🇺🇦

[81-er]

I really like the look of the 74/75/76 scheme (and yes, I did go to the ICM website just to have a look). I may be slightly biased due to the colours on my Ar 555 I'm finishing off though 

 

James

[vppelt68]

Doing some "research" (I'm a lurking member at the Luftwaffe Research Group) resulted in finding this post by Canadian illustrator David E. Brown:

 

"For this particular machine, the existing photo is rather poor. Thus the camouflage interpretation is speculative but based on the photo itself, availability of colours at that time, etc. We believed that "R4+DC" wore a unit-modified camouflage of patches of RLM77 light grey applied over the factory scheme of RLM22 black upper surfaces, with RLM76 undersides. For the latter, RLM65 is possible. Again, this interpretation cannot be considered definitive, but however a reasonable one given the available information."

 

Now that doesn't make it any less interesting, but do I dare to jump on it?  V-P

[81-er]

So RLM 22 instead of the RLM 74, and RLM 77 instead of the RLM 75? Interesting, and not in a bad way...

 

James

[vppelt68]

That's how I'd interpret it. 22 black instead of 74 green grey and, 77 light grey instead of 75 violet grey. My 215 already has its first layer of light blue 76 brushed below her wings and I'll stick with that. For the topside colours, the jury is still out.

(Add 5*RLM and 1*Do to text above, shake well and enjoy in darkness )

[Andwil]

This is very interesting as I plan to finish my 215B-5 as R4+DC.  I cannot find any paint for RLM 77, any clue as to what shade of grey to use?  I’m thinking maybe Sky Grey?

 

AW

[81-er]

There's a couple of suggestions on these links (both of which give an overview on options for RLM colours)

 

https://www.cybermodeler.com/color/rlm_table.shtml

 

https://www.ipmsstockholm.org/colorcharts/stuff_eng_colorcharts_germany.htm

 

James

[vppelt68]

*Your host IS still here*

 

I'm helping my daughter do a renovation in her apartment and oh yes it has kept me busy, so busy I haven't had time to build any kits lately - but I'll be back building soon! I made myself a deadline that Do 215 B-5 must be finished before I can get my hands on a Monogram Classic build . V-P

[Andwil]

Things have gone a bit quiet around here of late, seems a number of builds have bogged down.  I know I’m stuck in a cycle of fill, sand, prime, repeat on the underwing nacelle joints on my 215 B-5 with not a lot of progress to be worth posting.  Hopefully that should change soon.

 

AW

[81-er]

Mine's stalled while I get the last bits of DIY sorted so the house can go on the market, but that should be finished after the weekend. Then it'll be all systems go again

 

James

[Andwil]

12 minutes ago, 81-er said:

Mine's stalled while I get the last bits of DIY sorted so the house can go on the market, but that should be finished after the weekend. Then it'll be all systems go again

 

James

Good luck with the sale of your house.  I hope its not too stressful for you.

 

AW

[vppelt68]

Instead of posting on each build thread, I chose to click there a " " and now write a collective "good job, you're getting there!" just not to flood the forum front page! V-P

[vppelt68]

Oh! Wow! Too late for this GB, but in time to stock up for the Luftwaffe Twins, comes this new release from Airfix

https://uk.airfix.com/community/blog-and-news/workbench/new-schemes-luftwaffe-flying-pencil-bomber

Dang, look at that new boxart! It's one of the best, ever!

V-P

[vppelt68]

On the heels of the previous post, I'm so happy to tell you that we've been granted a two week extension . I hope this helps you (and me!) to finish our builds and get them in the gallery. Many of you have plans to finish your builds before the original deadline, well done and do stick to those plans anyway 👍. V-P

[psdavidson]

Thank the deity of your choice or at least @Enzo Matrix

My build still ain't gonna look pretty but at least it might be a bit more presentable

[Enzo the Magnificent]

I put the finishing touches to my two builds this afternoon.  It will be a novelty to have them in the gallery before the last day.   

[Marklo]

3 hours ago, vppelt68 said:

I'm so happy to tell you that we've been granted a two week extension

Ah now everything makes sense. I’m still aiming to finish by the weekend because otherwise it’ll go the way of my Olympic and I’ll miss the revised deadline