Possible Obvious Question- RAF/RN Initial Colours

[neilfergylee]

This might get an '"RTFM" response but I would like to ask about the colours used for the initial deliveries of RAF and RN Phantoms in the late 1960s: were they in BS318c colours or FS equivalents?

 

I have tried to look on the forum was was swamped with no many posts!

 

Thanks,

 

Neil

[iainpeden]

That's a question and a half and I don't know the definitive answer. However a few bits of logic may (or may not apply). The Spey Phantoms underwent final assembly in St Louis and there are pictures of them under test, in camo, in the states so I'd assume they underwent painting over there, which means either US paints were used or gallons of BS spec paint were shipped over. I also seem to remember having seen pictures of the parts we made in this country unpainted prior to shipping over; as the painting appears to be uniform on colours I'd suspect the St Louis paint shop got the job.

 

However (again) I'm just going over Close up no.1 by Richared Caruna and 2 things stand out; first a statement that the F-4M underwent it's first flight from Holloman AFB - which if correct suggests a construction facility there and the ad. on the back which gives FS equivalents for BS paints.

 

There's also the fact that FS paints were used for the F-4J (UK)s.

 

Interesting question to research once lockdown gets us again.

[neilfergylee]

24 minutes ago, iainpeden said:

That's a question and a half and I don't know the definitive answer. However a few bits of logic may (or may not apply). The Spey Phantoms underwent final assembly in St Louis and there are pictures of them under test, in camo, in the states so I'd assume they underwent painting over there, which means either US paints were used or gallons of BS spec paint were shipped over. I also seem to remember having seen pictures of the parts we made in this country unpainted prior to shipping over; as the painting appears to be uniform on colours I'd suspect the St Louis paint shop got the job.

 

However (again) I'm just going over Close up no.1 by Richared Caruna and 2 things stand out; first a statement that the F-4M underwent it's first flight from Holloman AFB - which if correct suggests a construction facility there and the ad. on the back which gives FS equivalents for BS paints.

 

There's also the fact that FS paints were used for the F-4J (UK)s.

 

Interesting question to research once lockdown gets us again.

Hi Ian,

 

Thanks for coming back to me so quickly.  It is indeed a knotty problem and I would bet that the aircraft would be FS equivalents.  Researching this would be about the only advantage of a lockdown!!!

 

Thanks again,

 

Neil

[John Laidlaw]

It's possible @Tailspin Turtle has knowledge of this, or may be able to point you to sources.

[Tailspin Turtle]

49 minutes ago, iainpeden said:

That's a question and a half and I don't know the definitive answer. However a few bits of logic may (or may not apply). The Spey Phantoms underwent final assembly in St Louis and there are pictures of them under test, in camo, in the states so I'd assume they underwent painting over there, which means either US paints were used or gallons of BS spec paint were shipped over. I also seem to remember having seen pictures of the parts we made in this country unpainted prior to shipping over; as the painting appears to be uniform on colours I'd suspect the St Louis paint shop got the job.

 

However (again) I'm just going over Close up no.1 by Richared Caruna and 2 things stand out; first a statement that the F-4M underwent it's first flight from Holloman AFB - which if correct suggests a construction facility there and the ad. on the back which gives FS equivalents for BS paints.

 

There's also the fact that FS paints were used for the F-4J (UK)s.

 

Interesting question to research once lockdown gets us again.

The F-4M first flight was from St. Louis’ Lambert Field. The F-4K/Ms were painted there. I do not know what paint was used but it seems likely that it was to Brit specification.

[Tailspin Turtle]

http://aviationarchives.blogspot.com/2015/11/f-4k-paint-and-color-drawing.html

[Tailspin Turtle]

Holloman AFB was used as a refueling stop from time to time on ferry flights from St. Louis to Edwards. Some testing of the F-4M was accomplished at Edwards, which may have led to a gargled observation about an F-4M first flight from Holloman. 

[David Womby]

1 hour ago, Tailspin Turtle said:

http://aviationarchives.blogspot.com/2015/11/f-4k-paint-and-color-drawing.html

Any chance of a larger version of that drawing, please?  When I click on the link for the larger version it says 'not found'.

 

David

[Tailspin Turtle]

38 minutes ago, David Womby said:

Any chance of a larger version of that drawing, please?  When I click on the link for the larger version it says 'not found'.

 

David

I’ve reported it to the blog administrator. I’ve got the large version (1.4 MB) that I can email you if necessary. Bottom line, it’s Brit paint specification for the dark sea gray, e.g. MMS 405 epoxy enamel, color No.. UK33b/1527 glossy dark sea gray; the white is FSN 17875

Edited October 26, 2020 by Tailspin Turtle

[David Womby]

3 minutes ago, Tailspin Turtle said:

I’ve reported it to the blog administrator. I’ve got the large version (1.4 MB) that I can email you if necessary. Bottom line, it’s all Brit paint specifications, at least for the major colors.

No need.  I just wanted to read the spec and you've answered that.  Thanks

David

[71chally]

There is a good thread on all this somewhere, but need to locate it.

 

The Royal Navy FG.1s were delivered across the Atlantic by McDonnell Douglas in a grey which was noticeably lighter than the standard Extra Dark Sea Grey BS381C-640 then in service, which I'm guessing is the glossy sea grey that Tommy mentions.

These jets were repainted in Extra Dark Sea Grey quite early on. I cant remember if this was undertaken on a service schedule or not.

 

Some of the RAF Phantoms had white weapons pylons and underwing tanks, rather than the standard Light Aircraft Grey of the aircraft undersides.

The mid grey of the upper camo of some of these seems a lighter tone than the standard RAF Dark Sea Grey BS381C-638 then in use.  There are pictures of some of these with 23 MU at Aldergrove (Where RAF Phantoms were received from MDD) seemingly being prepped for repaint, so maybe the paint was rectified then.

 

I've always taken it (assumption?) that the British Phantoms were delivered in a US Spec paint, done to a 'near enough' of British specified colours.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2020 by 71chally

[neilfergylee]

5 hours ago, Tailspin Turtle said:

I’ve reported it to the blog administrator. I’ve got the large version (1.4 MB) that I can email you if necessary. Bottom line, it’s Brit paint specification for the dark sea gray, e.g. MMS 405 epoxy enamel, color No.. UK33b/1527 glossy dark sea gray; the white is FSN 17875

 

4 hours ago, 71chally said:

There is a good thread on all this somewhere, but need to locate it.

 

The Royal Navy FG.1s were delivered across the Atlantic by McDonnell Douglas in a grey which was noticeably lighter than the standard Extra Dark Sea Grey BS381C-640 then in service, which I'm guessing is the glossy sea grey that Tommy mentions.

These jets were repainted in Extra Dark Sea Grey quite early on. I cant remember if this was undertaken on a service schedule or not.

 

Some of the RAF Phantoms had white weapons pylons and underwing tanks, rather than the standard Light Aircraft Grey of the aircraft undersides.

The mid grey of the upper camo of some of these seems a lighter tone than the standard RAF Dark Sea Grey BS381C-638 then in use.  There are pictures of some of these with 23 MU at Aldergrove (Where RAF Phantoms were received from MDD) seemingly being prepped for repaint, so maybe the paint was rectified then.

 

I've always taken it (assumption?) that the British Phantoms were delivered in a US Spec paint, done to a 'near enough' of British specified colours.

 

 

 

 

 

Thank yo both for your comments: it looks like another conundrum!  I wold like to do an early F4K / M and may well go for some FS equivelent colours but more research on my behalf is cleary required.

 

@Tailspin Turtle might I possibly have a copy of the full-resolution diagram too?  I shall PM you my email address.

 

Thanks again,

 

Neil

[Tailspin Turtle]

31 minutes ago, neilfergylee said:

 

Thank yo both for your comments: it looks like another conundrum!  I wold like to do an early F4K / M and may well go for some FS equivelent colours but more research on my behalf is cleary required.

 

@Tailspin Turtle might I possibly have a copy of the full-resolution diagram too?  I shall PM you my email address.

 

Thanks again,

 

Neil

The link is now fixed.

[neilfergylee]

11 minutes ago, Tailspin Turtle said:

The link is now fixed.

Brilliant, thanks!

[neilfergylee]

Oh God, can of worms opened...

 

"Apply MMS 405 Epoxy Enamel Color no. UK33B/1527 glossy dark sea gray per MAC P.S. 13415"

 

I suspect the MAC spec. is a McDonnell Douglas spec but UK33B/1527 and just Dark Sea Grey, not EXTRA?

 

The plot (if not the paint) thickens...

Edited October 27, 2020 by neilfergylee

[iainpeden]

9 hours ago, neilfergylee said:

 

Thank yo both for your comments: it looks like another conundrum!  I wold like to do an early F4K / M and may well go for some FS equivelent colours but more research on my behalf is cleary required.

 

@Tailspin Turtle might I possibly have a copy of the full-resolution diagram too?  I shall PM you my email address.

 

Thanks again,

 

Neil

This may help. The Close-up by Richard Caruna - introduction is dated October 1984 - has an advert for Humbrol paints on the back which gave equivalents; these being:

Dark Sea Grey        FS36118        (Humbrol Authentic HX2)

Dark Green             FS34079        (HX1)

Light A/c Grey        FS36357         (HX5)

Extra Dark Sea Grey  FS16099       (HB7)

Underside White       FS17038       (HB11)

 

All logical, except when the F-4J (UK)s were painted they are reported to have used Light Gull Gray (FS36440) as a substitute for LAG. I know at least one paint producer uses the same formulation for both.

What a wonderful range the Humbrol authentics were!

 

(If you disagree don't shoot the messenger)

 

Neil - just read your latest post - there's a recent discussion somewhere about McAIR using their own formulation for the KC-10 which didn't fit the FS system so your idea makes sense.

 

(but then I'll throw in the old one about scale colour and say any old dark gray will do!)

[perdu]

6 hours ago, iainpeden said:

What a wonderful range the Humbrol authentics were!

They certainly were.

 

I was heartbroken when I returned to my first-loved hobby after a while out 'doing' classic cars to find that the 'Authentic Humbrol Paints' train had left the station never to return.

 

I don't think Humbrol's changes of ownership and production bases did us any favours, ever.

[neilfergylee]

On 27/10/2020 at 14:45, perdu said:

They certainly were.

 

I was heartbroken when I returned to my first-loved hobby after a while out 'doing' classic cars to find that the 'Authentic Humbrol Paints' train had left the station never to return.

 

I don't think Humbrol's changes of ownership and production bases did us any favours, ever.

 

I remember the sheer unadulterated excitement of finding Humbrol paints with high numbers that were authentic.  As a twelve year old, that was biiig news.

 

The upside is that we have a teriffic range of colours available to us today and at least Humbrol is safely in the Hornby stable.

[Antti_K]

Hello all,

 

I have a couple of photos I've downloaded from the Internet showing brand new FG.1s and FGR.2s side by side. Okay, one should never trust on old photos and all that, but the grey colour looks exactly the same on both variants. At least FG.1s should look somewhat darker than FGR.2s if a different grey paint was used, but they don't. To my eye it looks like Dark Sea Grey and the original American paint on FG.1s also faded considerably when exposed to elements at sea.

I used Hu 27 and Hu 34 for my FG.1 with a satin top coat of Hu 135. When comparing my model against photos of XT596, Hu 27 looks rather good.

 

 

I'm also building a FGR.2 and one possible paint sceme is the original camouflage and No 6 Squadron markings. Let's see...

 

Cheers,

Antti

[neilfergylee]

On 26/10/2020 at 18:46, 71chally said:

There is a good thread on all this somewhere, but need to locate it.

 

The Royal Navy FG.1s were delivered across the Atlantic by McDonnell Douglas in a grey which was noticeably lighter than the standard Extra Dark Sea Grey BS381C-640 then in service, which I'm guessing is the glossy sea grey that Tommy mentions.

These jets were repainted in Extra Dark Sea Grey quite early on. I cant remember if this was undertaken on a service schedule or not.

 

Some of the RAF Phantoms had white weapons pylons and underwing tanks, rather than the standard Light Aircraft Grey of the aircraft undersides.

The mid grey of the upper camo of some of these seems a lighter tone than the standard RAF Dark Sea Grey BS381C-638 then in use.  There are pictures of some of these with 23 MU at Aldergrove (Where RAF Phantoms were received from MDD) seemingly being prepped for repaint, so maybe the paint was rectified then.

 

I've always taken it (assumption?) that the British Phantoms were delivered in a US Spec paint, done to a 'near enough' of British specified colours.

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 26/10/2020 at 15:26, Tailspin Turtle said:

http://aviationarchives.blogspot.com/2015/11/f-4k-paint-and-color-drawing.html

 

On 27/10/2020 at 08:37, iainpeden said:

This may help. The Close-up by Richard Caruna - introduction is dated October 1984 - has an advert for Humbrol paints on the back which gave equivalents; these being:

Dark Sea Grey        FS36118        (Humbrol Authentic HX2)

Dark Green             FS34079        (HX1)

Light A/c Grey        FS36357         (HX5)

Extra Dark Sea Grey  FS16099       (HB7)

Underside White       FS17038       (HB11)

 

All logical, except when the F-4J (UK)s were painted they are reported to have used Light Gull Gray (FS36440) as a substitute for LAG. I know at least one paint producer uses the same formulation for both.

What a wonderful range the Humbrol authentics were!

 

(If you disagree don't shoot the messenger)

 

Neil - just read your latest post - there's a recent discussion somewhere about McAIR using their own formulation for the KC-10 which didn't fit the FS system so your idea makes sense.

 

(but then I'll throw in the old one about scale colour and say any old dark gray will do!)

 

 

OK, so there might be a pattern emerging.  To begin, the diagram unearthed by @Tailspin Turtle makes for interesting reading as it refers to 'Dark Sea Grey', not Extra DSG.  Now this might be nothing more than semantics but I wonder if, as @71chally said, the aircraft as delivered were pale.  Therefore, were F-4Ks painted FS36118?

 

 

 

Now, I could be putting two and two together and making five, but perhaps Royal Navy F-4Ks were finished initially in FS36118, which is noticeably lighter than EDSG, but then refinished in the proper BS shade?

 

Just a thought.

 

Cheers,

 

Neil

 

[neilfergylee]

1 hour ago, Antti_K said:

Hello all,

 

I have a couple of photos I've downloaded from the Internet showing brand new FG.1s and FGR.2s side by side. Okay, one should never trust on old photos and all that, but the grey colour looks exactly the same on both variants. At least FG.1s should look somewhat darker than FGR.2s if a different grey paint was used, but they don't. To my eye it looks like Dark Sea Grey and the original American paint on FG.1s also faded considerably when exposed to elements at sea.

I used Hu 27 and Hu 34 for my FG.1 with a satin top coat of Hu 135. When comparing my model against photos of XT596, Hu 27 looks rather good.

The post I just committed shold have gone up last night but I had a glitch.  It's interesting that you have noted how the RN FG.1s looked to be in Darke Sea Grey without the 'Extra'at the front.  Picking up on the comparison above, here is e-Paint's comparison between FS36118 and Dark Sea Grey.

 

 

Could it have been a simple misinterpretation of colour and was FS36118 used?

 

Note: I am very aware that colour comparisons on computer monitors are dodgy!

 

What do we think?

 

Cheers,

 

Neil

Edited October 30, 2020 by neilfergylee

[neilfergylee]

All three colours side-by-side:

 

[Antti_K]

It would be nice to visit the RN museum at Yeovilton "armed" with few colour fans and note book... Any volunteers🙂

 

Cheers,

Antti

[neilfergylee]

Just now, Antti_K said:

It would be nice to visit the RN museum at Yeovilton "armed" with few colour fans and note book... Any volunteers🙂

 

Cheers,

Antti

There's also a very useful bluetooth gizmo that will do the same thing using your phone!

[iainpeden]

It would be interesting to compare the colours of the 2 Phantoms at the FAA museum; the one on the carrier deck was basically a test a/c which may never have been repainted whereas the restored one (to state the bloomin' obvious) has been.