Anyone use AK paints?

[Spruetastic]

Hi Guys,

 

I am currently finishing off an Eduard 1/48 scale Yak-3. All was going well until I needed to paint the darker of the two camouflage greys.

 

For this I had bought a bottle of AK RC317 (AMT-11). The paint looked thick I decided to thin it and injected some X20A thinners into the cup of my airbrush then added the paint. To my horror it formed large gelatinous globules.

 

I thought this paint was an Acrylic, nowhere on the labelling does it say otherwise, yet it clearly reacted badly with the X20A.

 

I have just tried the paint with white spirit and it separated out into white and grey parts, clearly not good either - what are you supposed to thin this stuff with?

 

Thank your your help.

 

Stay safe.

 

Regards,

 

Dave

 

 

[Mark Harmsworth]

I always use the same brand thinner for my paints to avoid this sort of problem but AK seems to respond well to Mr Color thinner as well as the AK brand thinner.

 

Discussed on Hyperscale: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hyperscale/thinning-ak-interactive-real-colors-t515870.html

 

And as this is a paint topic I'm guessing it'll be moved to the appropriate section.

Mark

[Ray_W]

Hi Dave,

 

I have used AK Real Color with their purpose designed thinner and they were brilliant.

 

Even though they are an acrylic does not mean that water or an alcohol based X-20A is a suitable solvent. In simple terms, paints have 3 components - pigment, binder and solvent. The binder in this case is acrylic and there a range of acrylic binders with different performance characteristics including, importantly, which solvent to be used. It does not mean washes out in water. Although we have come to expect it and herein lies the problem.   I have got into the habit of referring to acrylics that wash out in water as "aqueous" acrylics. 

 

The AK Real Colors are not an aqueous acrylic. They do not wash out in water, but they do mix with the Gunze and Tamiya Aqueous acrylics. If you had used a lacquer thinner like Tamiya's brand or Mr Color Levelling thinner I expect then no problem. They seem to have a performance sitting between the aqueous acrylics like the Gunze and Tamiya aqueous acrylics and not at the extreme acrylic lacquer end like Mr Color.

 

With their thinner they are some of the best self-levelling paints I have used.

 

Ray

 

 

 

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

I'm on record saying numerous times already and will say it again.

 

The word "acrylic" is a meaningless marketing buzzword which people with no chemistry knowledge assume means "brilliant".

 

All it means is that there is some acrylic resin somewhere in the composition. You can make a paint and call it acrylic that is water dispersible, alcohol dispersible or solvent dispersible. You can make them dry in 30 seconds or over 3 days. It's still technically an acrylic paint and writing such on the label will have people falling over themselves to buy it.

 

Absolutely no information about the properties of any paint can be inferred from the word acrylic on the container, besides of course marketing appeal.

 

[Spruetastic]

Hi Guys,

 

Thanks for your input. Although your responses go way beyond what I asked for. I am aware of all you say Jamie, and although I did not ask for a lecture on paint bases I take on board your comments due to my lack of specifics in defining my choice of the word Acrylic.

 

That said, as most modelling paints that are not stated as being enamels can be thinned with a mixture of water and IPA I think it strange that AK should go down a totally different route to everyone else. I am sure you will agree that most proprietary paint thinners are ridiculously expensive and being forced into using a particular manufacturer's type is not the way I want to work. Normally I mix my own thinners from 99.99% pure IPA (20%) and distilled water (80%) to cut costs. Up to now I have had no issues with  any other "Acrylic" modelling paint.

 

This is my very first pot of AK paint and it will now be trashed, I will go with Vallejo Model Air (paints I know well) 71.304 AMT-11 instead. It will be cheaper to do that than purchase thinners for just this one pot of paint.

 

What bugs me is the lack of information on both the AK bottle and on the AK web site! Other AK products I have are "paneliner" washes and pigment powders, neither of which have I had any issues with.

 

Take care all.

 

Regards,

 

Dave

 

 

[Graham Boak]

I think your comment that most non-enamels can be thinned with water (with or without IPA) is optimistic and you've just been very lucky.  If you don't know the chemical constituents of any paint, what Jamie said.  Go with the recommended thinners until you find out for sure that something else will work.  Many paints will work with cheaper alternatives if you are prepared to buy chemicals in (comparative) bulk, but not everything with anything.

[alt-92]

3 hours ago, Spruetastic said:

For this I had bought a bottle of AK RC317 (AMT-11). The paint looked thick I decided to thin it and injected some X20A thinners into the cup of my airbrush then added the paint. To my horror it formed large gelatinous globules.

Which is why I test mixing newly bought paint with %randomthinners% outside the airbrush

Out of curiosity, how do you get on with Vallejo thinned with X-20A?

 

[Troy Smith]

3 hours ago, Spruetastic said:

what are you supposed to thin this stuff with?

 

 

I was unsure of the paint type,  @Ray_W is right

https://ak-interactive.com/product/amt-11-blue-grey-10ml/

 

"May be diluted with AK-Interactive’s specific thinner, or thinners from other manufacturers intended for acrylic lacquer paints (non-vinyl)."

"

FOR DILUTION,
OUR REAL COLOR THINNER
WORKS REALLY GREAT...
BUT OTHERS TOO.

Can be diluted with our own specific thinner or the ones from other brands and types: acrylic lacquer (non-vinyl), lacquer thinner, alcohol.."

 

You should be able to thin this with cellulose thinners, it will stink, but will dry really fast and hard, other laquer thinners or alcohols, presumeably Iso Propyl alcohol.

 

As @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies says, there are many 'acrylics'  and they are not all intercompatible..  

 

[alt-92]

50 minutes ago, Spruetastic said:

I think it strange that AK should go down a totally different route to everyone else. I am sure you will agree that most proprietary paint thinners are ridiculously expensive and being forced into using a particular manufacturer's type is not the way I want to work.

In the case of AK, they offer distinct products. 

The 'acrylics' you're used to that are similar to VMA come in dropper bottles. They also do 10ml bottles, and that's not the same stuff. 

At a guess, the AMT-11 is one of those 10ml bottles. Works fantastic with Mr.Color Self-leveling thinner (SLT) though.

 

 

 

[John Thompson]

FWIW, the darker of the two VVS greys is AMT-12, not AMT-11. And AK's colour matches aren't great. Sorry...

 

John

[Asmodai]

2 hours ago, John Thompson said:

FWIW, the darker of the two VVS greys is AMT-12, not AMT-11. And AK's colour matches aren't great. Sorry...

 

John

FWIW, Vallejo’s color matches for WW2 are basically nonexistent. They take whatever FS color in their line is close enough, slap a WW2 color designation name on it, and call it a day. Sorry. 

[Spruetastic]

Hi Guys,

 

Thanks for your opinions and comments.

 

In answer to a question posed to me above about Vallejo Air paints - generally I don't thin these paints unless I want to work at low pressure and specifically need a well thinned paint, i.e. for highlights and mottling.

 

When I do thin them I use the 20%/80% mix that I mention above without any problems at all, the same for Tamiya paints. I do not like to use flow enhancers or retarders in any form. They take far too long to dry and I feel are unnecessary and risk dust inclusions.

 

I use my thinners mix for Vallejo varnishes and Micro Gloss and Micro Satin varnishes as well - again without issues.

 

Quote: "As @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies says, there are many 'acrylics'  and they are not all compatible." - I never said they were, just that I did not want to work with paints requiring multiple types of thinners over and above the ones I can buy cheaply or mix myself in bulk. Please bear in mind that originally I asked only for the type of thinners required specifically for the AK 317 paint.

 

Now, the last comment from John above intrigues me and I am curious to ask what references to WWII colours he thinks can possibly be accurate? No early colour photos of these planes are anywhere near reality, Anything in a museum has either been repainted with a best guess, or are damaged by the environments they have been stored in for the last 75 years. Only if there is a specific mix listed as used by a manufacturer - RAL or CMYK for example can a colour be matched with reasonable accuracy. We can only expect to be close IMHO, and I am happy with that.

 

What is anyone's opinion of the coloured pamphlets supplied with model kits, would you work to one or would you spend tons of money on reference books?

 

Regards,

 

Dave

 

[John Thompson]

2 hours ago, Asmodai said:

FWIW, Vallejo’s color matches for WW2 are basically nonexistent. They take whatever FS color in their line is close enough, slap a WW2 color designation name on it, and call it a day. Sorry. 

 

I never said anything about Vallejo, since I've never tried them. I have tried AJ Interactive, and they don't match what I consider to be credible standards. So you needn't apologize, at least not to me.

 

 

1 hour ago, Spruetastic said:

Now, the last comment from John above intrigues me and I am curious to ask what references to WWII colours he thinks can possibly be accurate? No early colour photos of these planes are anywhere near reality, Anything in a museum has either been repainted with a best guess, or are damaged by the environments they have been stored in for the last 75 years. Only if there is a specific mix listed as used by a manufacturer - RAL or CMYK for example can a colour be matched with reasonable accuracy. We can only expect to be close IMHO, and I am happy with that.

 

What I "think" can possibly be accurate are actual Russian paint specification samples from 1948, which include the colours under discussion. This document is called Albom Nakrasok. It was used as a reference by the creator of Akan paints in order to achieve as accurate a representation as possible. So it's not a matter of what I "think", thank you very much, nor is it a matter of your opinion of contemporary colour photos, etc., nor is it a matter of RAL or CMYK, blah, blah, blah.

 

For a well-studied and authoritative discussion of this subject, go here:

https://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/color-table.html

or:

https://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/colors/quickguide/quickguide.htm

 

 

John

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Spruetastic said:

What is anyone's opinion of the coloured pamphlets supplied with model kits, would you work to one or would you spend tons of money on reference books?

Hi Dave

All I know is you are new here,  so no idea if you have been lurking, or are on other forums. 

If you are not a long time lurker,  then this maybe of help. 

The two places i would go for up to date information on aircraft colours are here and Hyperscale (less so there but good for US information and some Luftwaffe) and there is a cross over of members., though for research on Soviet colours the English language site is Sovietwarplanes,  again,  members cross over.

The best place for Japanese colours os Aviation of Japan blog. 

 

We have noted colo(u)r researchers post here pretty regularly as well. Some of them do infact write the books,  honorable mention here to @Dana Bell @Mike Starmer  @iang,  or @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies  who runs perhaps the only model paint company to take part and utilise the resources available from the consensus I mention below, as well as having done primary research,  including making up paint samples from original formula.

 

The search function here is 'not great'  but you if you add britmodeller into  a search engine term, that works,  and over the years pretty much everything has been discussed.

the relevance here you can skip over getting expensive reference books unless you like that sort of thing,  or at least get to know what are the really essential ones, and get answers here that as as good as you will get on the subject.  

 

The only caution I would give is this, that there is a reasonable consensus on most of this, even if that consensus is that "we don't really know, but the informed opinion from what evidence there is is this" but on occasion we get a new member who comes along,  and makes statements (the classic is "but i think this" ) and get put out when told something else with supporting information,  and then seeming to think this is some kind of snobby club,  which is why I mention the consensus,  which is really a distillation of the best available information and research, that can be accessed for free by asking,  even if the answer are a various links to previous discussions,  which if you have the time and interest will show the information as to how the consensus has been reached.

And useful additions to enhance knowledge are always welcome,  as are polite discussion. 

I have learned a vast amount from threads on here over the years, which is why I'm making the statement above.   And has lead me to purchase specific reference books as well.

 

You mention the VVS colours,  well, there are surviving artefacts that are in decent condition,  in the case of AMT-11 and 12,  the yak-3 at le Bourget has been a very useful source, as the original paint was over painted.

There are also relics in Finland,  as well as Russian sources.

There is also a US color pics taken at Bari in Italy during a shuttle mission

 

https://attachment.tapatalk-cdn.com/45241/202006/2015849_ab8d0a90393689ab2b09be5f39e05217.jpg?Expires=1603843223&Signature=Faq-korZ9GjXDa7BQUUnMl-87baSS64D2pJq31Upw7kbER0fswEhkaYUJtt7WvVdZIGM0-5KPAkhbRkTS5nBU9Zepf~DecRv228ciz-V4VI7pglnleYRqxsifSzwb5CM84x93t95wjM0ul3cFdut3FkWgMaoGvhyNc-YfwG1Ad1Y8ojGd6sZpxF2kYMxaJKxTzmjbq1ScCru4x7X0OA3IVo-ICKK5GVoAI72B5Jdqx-7N3cvb~g3O6E4gzQNkrf63scmIRVhMy0PQcUg4JmQ~pEby-20gcDXjekOY6OPWreg6byhRiXIAgjuU-yBYYhXoBuJ-HeUduahX-I3jFJ2hA__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJS72YROXJYGYDADA

which shows a good match to what was found on the Le Bourget Yak-3

 

There is also this image,   which is helpful as the Bf109 colours are known

along with more German colour photos of wrecks

for more on VVS colours

https://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/index.html

 

There are A LOT of photos now being posted of VVS types on Russian web pages,  which is really helping build up a detailed picture of VVS unit markings for example.

 

HTH

Edited October 25, 2020 by Julien
no copyright pic pls

[Julien]

moved to the pint section, pls post in the right area.

[Spruetastic]

Guys,

 

This has got seriously out of hand as far as I am concerned. Clearly I have inadvertently made comments/asked questions that have upset some of you - that was not my intention! My questions were of innocent curiosity and not a put down of anyone here.

 

I am not a "lurker" (whatever that is) and this is the first and only scale modelling forum that I have joined. I think it might be the last though as I don't like the way this post has gone. Frankly, and this is a criticism, some of you need to chill a bit. Why would you think my intentions were anything other than as stated? It seems that I am very naive about this modelling world!

 

I had no idea colour reference data was available for Russian fighters (or where to find it), that is excellent news and most relevant to my last question. I thank you for that information. That said, and again this is not a personal criticism, I personally would take the photo of the fighters above with a grain of salt. My reasoning behind that is the poor colour film technology available at the time the image was taken, the processing involved and the age of the photo. That is my opinion based on 50 years of photography.

 

Finally, before I leave this post for good, I would still like an answer to my question of what you think of model kit colour pamphlets and "box art" images?

 

Stay safe all.

 

Regards,

 

Dave

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2020 by Spruetastic

[Graham Boak]

Box art and model instructions vary from very good to absolutely awful, although fortunately the latter are rarer nowadays.  The colour advice given is however often unreliable.

 

You are quite right to doubt the majority of colour representations, and any advice based on a single photo.  I think that Troy was only using this as an example (and quite a good one).  However, there are many hundreds of such photos, contemporary reports, results from wreck sites, and respectable sources of the original colours (including paint mixes made by the original manufacturer).  All of this evidence has been much discussed over the years, and continues to be so.

 

Re-reading the thread, I think you've been given some excellent advice without personal criticism.  Had you been a little clearer at the start, then perhaps some of the confusion could have been avoided.  You do however give the impression of being upset at discovering that the modelling and historic aircraft world is very large. widespread and complicated.  It doesn't fit into simple preconceptions.  Britmodeller is one of the friendlier and more helpful websites to guide your way through the morass.  Which may sound a little complacent: but sorry, try your own advice before letting off steam.

[Troy Smith]

3 hours ago, Spruetastic said:

I am not a "lurker" (whatever that is)

Just a internet forum term for someone who looks in, but does not post.  

which lead onto...

3 hours ago, Spruetastic said:

and this is the first and only scale modelling forum that I have joined. I think it might be the last though as I don't like the way this post has gone. 

Well, I did try to explain how it works,   I was pondering on this,  it's a bit like a good village pub, you have the regulars,  and they know each other and their foibles, and if you cause a bother, you get a warning and if ignored  asked to leave.

And as such, strangers do get checked out, and it can take a while to get used to the place.

 

If you stick with it,  there is a vast store of information,  and it really is a friendly and helpful place. 

 

3 hours ago, Spruetastic said:

I had no idea colour reference data was available for Russian fighters (or where to find it), that is excellent news and most relevant to my last question. I thank you for that information. That said, and again this is not a personal criticism, I personally would take the photo of the fighters above with a grain of salt. My reasoning I'm happy to have pointed you in behind that is the poor colour film technology available at the time the image was taken, the processing involved and the age of the photo. That is my opinion based on 50 years of photography.

 

 

I'm happy this was of use.  VVS colours are considered contentious from the work of a one of one researcher, who has created quite a controversy

see,  

http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/Colour_2014/colour_2014.html

 

He published a book, Soviet Air Force fighter Colours in the early 2000's,  which was the first English language book, it looks very impressive, until the Russian got hold of it and started commenting, negatively.  

This lead to a degree of hysteria in responses. 

As can be seen from the colour chips,  he believes the VVS used acid green and screamingly bright blue, along with colours that there are no references to in Soviet sources. 

 

If you have 50 years in photography, you might find this of interest

http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/AGFA_Photo_colour/AGFA-colour.html

 

and you may wish to compare

http://www.redbanner.co.uk/History/nkap/misunderstanding_nkap.html

 

with 

http://massimotessitori.altervista.org/sovietwarplanes/pages/il-2/il-2.htm

 

In particular, re the hysteria in the NKAP link above, and fantasy profiles,  note this image

 

HTH

[Spruetastic]

Graham Boak – How much clearer can I be by asking one simple question – what paint thinners work with AK paints!

 

I haven’t the patience to point out the flaws in some of your comments, but as a final one from me I strongly disagree with your statement, quote “Britmodeller is one of the friendlier and more helpful websites” – you have to be kidding!

 

To those of you not up their own @rs*s and that have been patient and helpful – thanks and good luck with your modelling.

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Spruetastic said:

what paint thinners work with AK paints!

Hi Dave. 

I posted what AK say to use on their website up the page,  this should link it.

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235082179-anyone-use-ak-paints/&do=findComment&comment=3864871

 

HTH

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

13 hours ago, Spruetastic said:

Graham Boak – How much clearer can I be by asking one simple question – what paint thinners work with AK paints!

 

I haven’t the patience to point out the flaws in some of your comments, but as a final one from me I strongly disagree with your statement, quote “Britmodeller is one of the friendlier and more helpful websites” – you have to be kidding!

 

To those of you not up their own @rs*s and that have been patient and helpful – thanks and good luck with your modelling.

 

If my response about acrylic marketing was taken as prickly or unwelcoming then I offer my apologies. It wasn't meant that way. You're also not the first person on here to have done exactly that with those paints based on the same assumption... The last guy toasted a whole boxed set doing it!