Spitfire XIV & Hawker Tempest V - Unit Cost & Build Time?

[wellsprop]

Hi all,

 

I've got a great interest in late war fighters and I've always wondered which was the bet RAF fighter - but that's not what this thread is about.

 

I'm curious, in 1944/45, does anyone know the unit cost and build time for a Spitfire XIV and a Tempest V?

 

The Mk I Spitfire cost 13k in '39 and the Typhoon cost 11k in '43. I would guess that the XIV would cost more, but then again, the Spitfire had a long production run, which could reduce costs. Another guess, the Tempest V was likely better designed for manufacture due to the lessons learned and the later design.

 

I'm not trying to start the debate about Tempest V vs Spitfire XIV - that's been done http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14afdu.html

 

Cheers!

Ben

[tank152]

Just the book for you, maybe?

https://www.mortonsbooks.co.uk/product/view/productCode/15057

[At Sea]

But you can't turn a saucepan into a Tempest...

 

 

 

 

(You couldn't turn a saucepan into a Spitfire either)

[wellsprop]

17 minutes ago, tank152 said:

Just the book for you then.

https://www.aviationbookcentre.com/military_aviation_piston_era_193645/the_secret_horsepower_race__western_front_fighter_engine_development_rrp_3500__launch_special_/20895_p.html

Hrm, that's only engines rather than whole aircraft.

 

However, 480 pages of research on WWII piston engines, written by an engineer. Yes please! That will go very nicely between my Abbott & Doenhoeff - Theory of Wing Sections and my Thermodynamic and Transport Properties of Fluids

[Troy Smith]

7 hours ago, wellsprop said:

I'm curious, in 1944/45, does anyone know the unit cost and build time for a Spitfire XIV and a Tempest V?

 

The Mk I Spitfire cost 13k in '39 and the Typhoon cost 11k in '43. I would guess that the XIV would cost more, but then again, the Spitfire had a long production run, which could reduce costs. Another guess, the Tempest V was likely better designed for manufacture due to the lessons learned and the later design.

The Spitfire was famously labour intensive to build,  IIRC, Corelli Barnett quoted a figure of 12,000 man hours for a Spitfire vs Vs 5,000 for a Bf 109G in Audit of War,  but he was a was an academic historian with an agenda, (the British were amateur bumblers in short)  

Steven Bungay comments on this in Most Dangerous Enemy that he does not mention that a Hurricane took about 500 man hours, and the bf109 was designed from the outset for mass production, and the Spitfire wasn't, and even the Germans would have found the Spitfire difficult to build.

 

Hawker were quite conservative in many ways, and built on existing knowledge and techniques when possible,  so I expect the Tempest airframe was designed to be easy enough to manufacture, but this is supposition. 

For a far more researched view on Tempests,  @Chris Thomas is the chap you want.

 

For this kind of detail,  and comparisons, @Geoffrey Sinclair  studies British aircraft manufacture, and may have some hard data to add this.

 

Also, the unit cost of the Tempest airframe maybe cheaper than the Spitfire XIV, but I suspect a Griffon is cheaper than a Sabre? 

 

One final point, this kind of wooly " I suspect " witter of mine is sure to bring winkle out some proper answers for those who do to correct my suppositions  

 

HTH

T

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

xx

17 hours ago, wellsprop said:

I'm curious, in 1944/45, does anyone know the unit cost and build time for a Spitfire XIV and a Tempest V?

The short answer is no.  The longer answer follows.

17 hours ago, wellsprop said:

The Mk I Spitfire cost 13k in '39 and the Typhoon cost 11k in '43.

Where do the 13,000 pound Spitfire and 11,000 pound Typhoon prices come from?  The Spitfires sold to Turkey cost 11,700 pounds sterling, which would include a profit margin higher than charged to the RAF.  Pre war a Spitfire sold to France, plus a spare engine, cost 16,500 pounds Sterling, giving an indication of the cost of a Merlin engine.  

 

Welcome to the fun idea you an accurately determine the cost of a military aircraft in wartime, or anytime.  Start with how to factor in depreciation of the factory, how to allocate costs of senior management and others not directly involved in assembling the aircraft.  As an example a detailed break down of Australian Beaufort costs, per aircraft in Australian pounds and note it does not account for spares, which were a significant percentage of total production.

 

Tooling 1,895, preliminary expenses 532, Improvements and extensions to properties 893 (Railways 554, Holden 186, other contractors 10, stores, flight field and plants 143), Plant, machinery and equipment 1,136, office furniture 168, which gives a total of 4,623 of establishment costs per aircraft.
 
Newport Workshop 1,477 (Labor 622, overhead 693, sub contract 162), Chullora Workshop 2,019 (Labor 734, overhead 1,155, sub contract 130), Islington Workshop 1,342 (Labor 516, overhead 745, sub contract 81), Assembly Workshops Mascot/Fishermans Bend 2,510 (Labor 1,038, overhead 1,472), Holden production cost per aircraft set 2,321, Richards Industries production cost per aircraft set 292, freight 350, central office overhead 3,224, Materials (including sub contractors' costs other than Holden or Richards Industries) Holden 821 (746 plus 75 for ten percent allowance), Richards Industries 44 (40 plus 4 for ten percent allowance), Newport (795 plus 79 for ten percent allowance), Chullora (2,780 plus 278 for ten percent allowance), Islington 1,407 (1,279 plus 128 for ten percent allowance), Assembly (4,446 plus 445 for ten percent allowance).  Appendix A equipment including gun turret 2,627  (Which gives the airframe cost as 27,257), Engines and Propellers (Overseas costs, Wasp engines and Curtiss propellers) 12,546 (Which gives total aircraft cost of 39,803)
 
So 39,803 plus 4,623 gives total costs per completed aircraft as 44,426 pounds.  

 

BUYING AIRCRAFT: MATERIEL PROCUREMENT FOR THE ARMY AIR FORCES by Irving Brinton Holley, jr. is an official US history of the process.  Lots of details.

When the US looked into efficiency it seems productivity followed a curve that said it took 16 to 18 man hours per pound of aircraft for the first production example, dropping to around 7 man hours per pound by aircraft 10, 3 by aircraft 100, 1.2 by aircraft 1000 and 0.52 by aircraft 10,000.  Essentially saying in the quality versus quantity debate do runs of 100 to 1,000 aircraft at least.  Note the US system of modification centres was set up to minimise changes to production lines.

 

USAAF estimated costs as of 28 February 1943.  GFE = Government Furnished Equipment.

Model / Airframe / Engines(s) / Propeller(s) / GFE / Ordnance / Communications / Total / % airframe / Notes
B-29 /  $362,347  /  $101,685  /  $10,328  /  $125,341  /  $4,836  /  $34,738  /  $639,275  / 56.68 / Costs based on weighted average of uncompleted contracts
B-32 /  $522,613  /  $101,685  /  $23,310  /  $68,947  /  $3,247  /  $34,150  /  $753,952  / 69.32 / Costs based on weighted average of uncompleted contracts
B-17 /  $111,443  /  $34,287  /  $3,400  /  $45,606  /  $4,595  /  $9,040  /  $208,371  / 53.48 / Costs based on weighted average of uncompleted contracts
B-24 /  $115,338  /  $32,659  /  $4,220  /  $49,781  /  $3,205  /  $8,474  /  $213,677  / 53.98 / Costs based on weighted average of uncompleted contracts
B-25 /  $59,358  /  $29,131  /  $3,071  /  $19,805  /  $4,147  /  $8,337  /  $123,849  / 47.93 / Costs based on weighted average of uncompleted contracts
B-26 /  $106,677  /  $43,171  /  $14,110  /  $21,647  /  $3,547  /  $7,749  /  $196,901  / 54.18 / Costs based on weighted average of uncompleted contracts
A-20 /  $44,366  /  $30,795  /  $4,428  /  $18,364  /  $2,345  /  $3,813  /  $104,111  / 42.61 / Costs based on final production contract
A-26 /  $106,807  /  $33,466  /  $3,700  /  $29,277  /  $14,067  /  $3,948  /  $191,265  / 55.84 / Costs based on weighted average of uncompleted contracts
A-24 /  $33,172  /  $9,103  /  $1,739  /  $1,997  /  $1,640  /  $4,800  /  $52,451  / 63.24 / Costs based on final production contract
A-25 /  $67,492  /  $13,559  /  $3,988  /  $1,997  /  $2,240  /  $3,500  /  $92,776  / 72.75 / Costs based on final production contract
A-35 /  $36,874  /  $13,351  /  $2,353  /  $3,026  /  $2,270  /  $3,911  /  $61,785  / 59.68 / Costs based on final production contract
A-36 (P-51) /  $36,706  /  $12,000  /  $3,680  /  $2,670  /  $2,632  /  $2,516  /  $60,204  / 60.97 / Costs based on final production contract
P-38 /  $74,536  /  $18,866  /  $5,270  /  $5,293  /  $2,405  /  $3,631  /  $110,001  / 67.76 / Costs based on weighted average of uncompleted contracts
P-59 /  $157,295  /  $75,000  /  $-  /  $2,001  /  $4,034  /  $2,864  /  $241,194  / 65.22 / Costs based on weighted average of uncompleted contracts
P-61 /  $154,899  /  $44,714  /  $6,352  /  $14,507  /  $4,684  /  $19,758  /  $244,914  / 63.25 / Costs based on weighted average of uncompleted contracts
P-70 /  $79,865  /  $29,372  /  $5,186  /  $24,052  /  $1,341  /  $3,260  /  $143,076  / 55.82 / Costs based on final production contract
P-82 /  $86,540  /  $36,000  /  $7,471  /  $3,967  /  $1,870  /  $1,545  /  $137,393  / 62.99 / Costs based on weighted average of uncompleted contracts
P-39 /  $24,866  /  $12,545  /  $3,256  /  $2,673  /  $4,712  /  $2,633  /  $50,685  / 49.06 / Costs based on final production contract
P-40 /  $26,709  /  $7,714  /  $2,635  /  $2,068  /  $2,646  /  $2,904  /  $44,676  / 59.78 / Costs based on final production contract
P-43 /  $54,907  /  $12,635  /  $4,500  /  $5,231  /  $2,490  /  $3,160  /  $82,923  / 66.21 / Costs based on final production contract
P-47 /  $47,796  /  $22,608  /  $5,975  /  $5,651  /  $2,527  /  $3,295  /  $87,852  / 54.41 / Costs based on weighted average of uncompleted contracts
P-51 /  $23,583  /  $17,558  /  $3,740  /  $2,649  /  $1,905  /  $2,780  /  $52,215  / 45.17 / Merlin Versions.  Costs based on weighted average of uncompleted contracts
P-63 /  $28,049  /  $13,183  /  $3,540  /  $3,693  /  $4,296  /  $2,640  /  $55,401  / 50.63 / Costs based on weighted average of uncompleted contracts

The USAAF Statistical Digest has a table of aircraft costs by year, and it shows a steady decrease in unit costs 1939/41 to 1945.

 

Ford at Willow Run invested more in tooling, including for difficult assemblies other Liberator factories did by hand, the result was Willow Run had great output per worker and usually the highest price, as the tooling costs had to be recovered from a much smaller (versus automobiles) production run which had far more changes.  That remained the problem when it came to tooling or even types of tooling versus hand made.  Think of all those US Block Numbers and RAF modification orders.

Figures from Buying Aircraft by Halley,

Time and dollar costs encountered while making 73 modifications to a group of 1,000 P-38,

P-38F-5, 10,450 engineering hours, 6,200 tooling hours, $4,650
P-38G-1, 23,250 engineering hours, 23,760 tooling hours, $18,000
P-38G-3 to 5,  5,000 engineering hours, 4,000 tooling hours, $3,000
P-38G-10, 19,200 engineering hours, 18,480 tooling hours, $13,800

 

B-25 direct engineering hours to give an idea on how often design change actually was

1940 - 329,415 hours, 1941 - 419,060 hours, 1942 - 695,488 hours, 1943 - 461,213 hours, 1944 - 200,321 hours

 

Now when it comes to costs people say the Hurricane was easier to build than the Spitfire, which of course does not extend to the engine, armament, electronics etc., it means the airframe, which comes to something like half the total cost using the US figures above. In January 1940 the British estimated the work force was building near twice the weight of Hurricane airframe per man hour than Spitfire, 240 versus 135 pounds per unit time worked.  Yet as of 22 December 1941 a Hurricane IId was costed at 19,560 man hours, while at 23 April 1942 a Spitfire Vc was 19,086 man hours.  A preliminary estimate on 26 January 1942 for the Typhoon was 28,756 man hours, down to 22,349 man hours assuming "full advantage us taken of the best available manufacturing methods".

 

Oh yes, man hour cost estimates, 201st aircraft, Stirling I (Short Swindon) 129,944, Lancaster I (Avro) 74,319, Halifax II (Handley Page) 98,246.

 

The name the Spitfire had a long production run, but not the individual versions. Effort in man hours, Spitfire production, mark / design / jigging and tooling

I / 339,400 / 800,000
II / 9,267 / unknown
III / 91,120 / 75,000
V / 90,000 / 105,000
VI 14,340 / 50,000
IX 43,830 / 30,000
XII / 27,210 / 16,000
VII / 86,150 / 150,000
VIII / 24,970 / 250,000
XIV / 26,120 / 17,000
21 / 168,500 / unknown
PR XI / 12,415 / unknown
Seafire I / 10,130 / 18,000
Seafire II / 3,685 / 40,000
Seafire III / 8,938 / 9,000
Seafire XV / 9,150 / unknown
Spitfire on floats 22,260 / 35,000

Figures as of September 1943 for Supermarine works in Southampton.  Even what looks like trivial design changes imposed delays and loss of production.

 

The UK official history lists four Spitfire airframe types,

A, Merlin II, III, XII so marks I, II and IV (PR), it was stretched to do the marks V, VI, PR VII, PR XIII, and Seafire I.

B, Mark VC, based on the mark III fighter prototype, stretched to do the mark IX and XII

C, Mark VII and VIII, and the two stage Griffon variants to the mark XIX.

D, F.21 and later.

The airframe was successively strengthened, so A was stronger than B, C was stronger than B and D was stronger than C.  The mark III fighter had a strengthened fuselage and engine mounting, clipped wings and a strengthened undercarriage.  The changes were enough that the mark V was preferred.  Two prototypes were built and they went on to serve as prototypes for the mark VII and IX.

 

From an April/May 1941 UK aircraft production budget, 4 Hurricanes "absorbed from Dominion orders" 8,500 pounds each, while a proposed order for Spitfires said 10,123 pounds each, Typhoons 16,700 pounds each, Tornado at 14,400 pounds each including spare engines allowance (that is the cost of 1 spare engine per X new aircraft, NOT the price of the engine), not sure whether this allowance is in the Hurricane price.  But do not despair that these might be the answer, a hand written note has the Spitfire V and VI at 9,500 pounds each, with another 450 pounds spare engine allowance, the planned mark IV Griffon engined version 10,500 pounds plus 600 pounds engine allowance, while a Lancaster from Avro is 41,400 pounds, but 43,600 from Metropolitan Vickers, a Sunderland from Shorts 52,100 pounds, from Short Harland 60,100 pounds.

 

So assuming we can compare like with like in early 1941 a Spitfire cost 1,000 pounds more than a Hurricane, then assuming half the cost is airframe, a Hurricane airframe cost something around 4,000 pounds, a Spitfire 4,750 pounds.  That can compare with the report most of the initial order for 300 Spitfire mark I were costed at around 5,700 pounds payment to Supermarine, which would include fees for installing the engine etc.

 

I do not have the price for a Sabre or Griffon, but join the crowd that the extended development, low production and problems means the Sabre was the more expensive, by end November 1945 there were 5,756 production Griffons built to 2,905 Centaurus to 4,967 Sabre, despite the Sabre starting production at the end of 1940, the Centaurus end 1942 and the Griffon mid 1942.

 

In April 1938 the British presented Australia with a total cost of ownership of warships, that is running cost, replacement and modernisation cost over lifetimes of 20 to 25 years, and showed it as an annual cost, Battleship 706,800 pounds (Nelson class), large cruiser 323,600 pounds, small cruiser 225,400 pounds, Aircraft carrier with 36 aircraft, 894,000 pounds, with 15 aircraft 514,500 pounds, destroyer 66,000 pounds, 1,000 ton submarine 65,500 pounds.  They were pushing the idea of an RAN battleship, annual cost of an aircraft set at 11,500 pounds.  For any battleships versus bombers comparisons.

[wellsprop]

@Geoffrey Sinclair wow, thanks for such a detailed response!

 

In reply to the query regarding the figures I found for the Spitfire and Typhoon - The Spitfire figure should have been "£12,604, Unit cost for airframe complete with engine, armament and equipment. The Spitfire Story, Alfred Price, 1982 p67) and the Typhoon, £10500 https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=2sQwBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false p62.

 

It's always hard to put a unit cost on an aircraft as the cost is for an aircraft programme, rather than a single unit - still true today.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

23 minutes ago, wellsprop said:

In reply to the query regarding the figures I found for the Spitfire and Typhoon - The Spitfire figure should have been "£12,604, Unit cost for airframe complete with engine, armament and equipment. The Spitfire Story, Alfred Price, 1982 p67) and the Typhoon, £10500 https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=2sQwBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false p62.

So the references do not give dates and in the Spitfire's case mark number?  I hit Google's welcome to our warm and cuddly tracking system message and stopped without trying to look at the Typhoon book.

[wellsprop]

2 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

So the references do not give dates and in the Spitfire's case mark number?  I hit Google's welcome to our warm and cuddly tracking system message and stopped without trying to look at the Typhoon book.

 

1938 for the Estonian Spitfire bid. So early Mk I.

 

Mid '43 for the Typhoon according to the book. Although it gives the Spitfire cost as £5k - so I don't know how accurate it is.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Spitfire price from 1938 with pre war profit margins and assumptions about limited production runs, so plenty of hand made, including the engine.

Agreed, as usual, the prices need explanation or definition of what exactly they cover.  The 5,000 pounds to Supermarine/Vickers seems to be the fee to build the airframe and fit the engine etc.  Tare weight of a Typhoon was about 8,800 pounds, versus 5,800 for the Spitfire IX so the Typhoon has a bias to being more expensive, but twice the price is a big stretch.  Given the amount of subcontracting involved there is the complication of whether these were paid direct or via Supermarine/Vickers or Hawkers, and so on.