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No. 3 Squadron Hawker Tempests - history needed


Jeff G

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Hey all, these pictures seem to be quite well known but are not often modeled. So, does anyone have any information on these specific aircraft pictured? Just interested to know if they had any kills, V-1's or otherwise!

 

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Thanks very much,

 

Jeff

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JF-M was JN812, the 3 Sqn CO's aircraft - Sqn Ldr Alan Dredge; it was one of the first Mk V Series 2 aircraft and was used by the squadron from 4 June 44 to 1 October 44 (when it was shot down by flak with the loss of its pilot, Wt Off Reid, during the unit move up to its winter base, B.80 Volkel).  I don't know how many V-1s it shot down but Dredge claimed 5, at least two in JN812.  In theory you could trawl through 3 Sqn's ORB to see if other pilots made claims in it, but I'll leave that to you (from downloads from the National Archive at present).

 

Incidentally, for 2 days or so, JN812 carried 3 Sqn's codes 'QO' before they were painted out on 5 June and replaced by 'JF' (you can see the overpainting in the photo).  Eduard provide these short-lived codes in one of their Tempest V boxings.

 

JF-G was JN769, a Series 1 Tempest V.  It was badly damaged on 23 June when it undershot the airfield our engine trouble. It went to Hawkers for repair.

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Using Diver,Diver,Diver - Brian Cull

Flt Lt A.R.Moore claimed a V-1 destroyed on 13/7/44 in JN812.

 

JN769 was used to claim 9kills and one shared.

17th June Flt Sgt Rose shared with Flt Sgt R.W.Cole

19th June 2 x V-1 with A.RMoore and one with Flg Off K.E.Kosh

22nd June V-1 kill by Flg Off R.H.Clapperton

27th June one V-1 kill each for Flt Sgt Everson and Flg Off R.H.Clapperton

28th June 2 x V-1 kills by Plt Off K.G.Slade-Betts

29th June V-1 kill again by Plt Off Slade-Betts.

 

It's interesting that Flt Lt Moore used both aircraft.

 

I have JN769 as crashing in take off after a burst tyre at North Weald whilst with 287 Squadron 3rd February 1945. Anyone confirm? (The Typhhon & Tempest Story - Thomas/Stores)

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1 hour ago, Gomtuu said:

I have JN769 as crashing in take off after a burst tyre at North Weald whilst with 287 Squadron 3rd February 1945. Anyone confirm? (The Typhhon & Tempest Story - Thomas/Stores)

No confirmation, just an anomaly, the Delivery Logs say Taken On Charge 23 March 1944, Category E 23 June, Brought Back On Charge 30 June.

 

https://steemit.com/history/@len.george/hawker-siddeley-tempest-mk-v-486-nz-squadron-1944-to-1945-part-1 agrees about the loss date.

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23 hours ago, Gomtuu said:

 

 

I have JN769 as crashing in take off after a burst tyre at North Weald whilst with 287 Squadron 3rd February 1945. Anyone confirm? (The Typhhon & Tempest Story - Thomas/Stores)

Yes, I can confirm it, I wrote it. I didn't make it up - the information came from a Form 1180 Accident card.

 

After the accident on 23 June 44, JN769 was recategorised as Cat B (ie. repairable at a major repair facility) and allocated to Hawker for repair.  It was ready for collection on 11 October 44 and was reported at 20 MU, Aston Down, two days later.  By 6 December it was reported with 287 Sqn - a second-line unit with anti-aircraft co-operation duties at Gatwick.  As it was a Series 1 Tempest V with no facilities for LRT, RP or bombs it was of no use to the 2nd TAF Tempest units.  Most of the surviving Series 1 Tempests ended up with 287 Sqn.

On 10/17/2020 at 7:56 PM, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

No confirmation, just an anomaly, the Delivery Logs say Taken On Charge 23 March 1944, Category E 23 June, Brought Back On Charge 30 June.

 

Whose Delivery Logs are you quoting Geoffrey?

CT

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11 hours ago, Chris Thomas said:

Yes, I can confirm it, I wrote it. I didn't make it up - the information came from a Form 1180 Accident card.

 

No worries. The only reason I queried the info was that I had seen a publication stating that it was JN759 in that particular accident. It was accompanied by a photo of a Tempest on its nose with (off the top of my head) 7 or so white/black stripes that I gather were recognition for the AA Co-op duties. 

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I haven't heard of any particular markings for AA Co-op duties,  However narrower black stripes on white underside areas were the recognition markings for Typhoons, so it would not be beyond possibility for an early Tempest: unless Chris knows better.

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5 hours ago, Geoffrey Sinclair said:

The RAF delivery logs, RAF Museum, ex MF-5.

 

So it seems JN769 was originally classified as E, then B and the anomaly is it is unlikely it was shooting down V-1 post 23 June.

Thanks for that info.  Yes, I am afraid that 3 Sqn's ORB is awash with similar anomalies, which is one of the reasons I did not wish to attempt to list individual aircraft V1 scores.  I have found that the accuracy of ORBs varies from unit to unit and period to period and 3 Sqn's is (engage polite mode) one of the most challenging to the researcher.  One Typhoon in 1943 was recorded as lost in action on 3 separate dates.

1 hour ago, Gomtuu said:

No worries. The only reason I queried the info was that I had seen a publication stating that it was JN759 in that particular accident. It was accompanied by a photo of a Tempest on its nose with (off the top of my head) 7 or so white/black stripes that I gather were recognition for the AA Co-op duties. 

Thank you Gomtuu; that is very interesting indeed.  I've been searching in vain, for a long time, for a photo of a 287 Sqn Tempest V.  I'd be very grateful if you, or anyone else who reads this, can direct to the source.  

 

287 Sqn used 15 of these early Tempests (including the famous JN751, formerly R-B) apparently with KZ codes but JN759 was not one of them - having been destroyed in a crash on 6 August 44.

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1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

I haven't heard of any particular markings for AA Co-op duties,  However narrower black stripes on white underside areas were the recognition markings for Typhoons, so it would not be beyond possibility for an early Tempest: unless Chris knows better.

Aah. Good thought Graham.  They could well be Typhoon style identity stripes which were carried by Tempests from entry into service through to 20 April 44 when they were ordered to be removed.  It is unlikely they would have survived on any of the Tempests until February 1945 (the date of the 287 Sqn Tempest crash) which suggests to me that the photo has been misidentified and actually does depict JN759 which was 'Cat B' due battle damage on 10 May 44.  The stripes should have been removed by then but ....?  It was SA-R of 486 Sqn at the time and went to Odiham two days later, presumably for repair at the Forward Repair Unit or  which was based there.

Edited by Chris Thomas
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3 hours ago, Chris Thomas said:

 I've been searching in vain, for a long time, for a photo of a 287 Sqn Tempest V.  I'd be very grateful if you, or anyone else who reads this, can direct to the source.  

 

287 Sqn used 15 of these early Tempests (including the famous JN751, formerly R-B) apparently with KZ codes but JN759 was not one of them - having been destroyed in a crash on 6 August 44.

Chris there's this page https://john-caulton-spitfire-pilot.com/post-war/   he flew Spifires and became POW , and flew with 287 post war after returning to the UK. It shows Tempests , but no codes are visible. You could try contacting the family via the contact page for other photos. 

 

Diver ect mentions to loss of JN759. I have rechecked the photo and it is indeed a Typhoon, thanks Graham. The photo is tiny and as the text subject was about a Tempest it must have stuck in my mind. It's my age 🤔

Edited by Gomtuu
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2 hours ago, Gomtuu said:

It shows Tempests , but no codes are visible. 

 

I took a look and about 1/6th of the way down the page, there is a photo of a pilot standing in front of a 287 Tempest. The identifier M is shown on the nose, presumably KZ-M?

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On 10/19/2020 at 2:07 PM, Gomtuu said:

Chris there's this page https://john-caulton-spitfire-pilot.com/post-war/   he flew Spifires and became POW , and flew with 287 post war after returning to the UK. It shows Tempests , but no codes are visible. You could try contacting the family via the contact page for other photos. 

 

Great find Gomtuu, very helpful indeed.

 

On 10/19/2020 at 4:15 PM, Jeff G said:

 

I took a look and about 1/6th of the way down the page, there is a photo of a pilot standing in front of a 287 Tempest. The identifier M is shown on the nose, presumably KZ-M?

 

I looked at all the Tempest photos (including the one just before the Spit Pilots Notes - captioned as a Spit 16) An there was no trace of codes either side of the roundels - where I would have expected to see some indication at least.  So codes on the nose only - apparent from 'M' there is another, 'U', visible in the Tempest line-up.  I have only ever found one report (from an immediate post war 'spotter) of a KZ code (JN764 KZ-R, widely reported in other reference books), so I am wondering how certain that code is.

 

The shot of the 'Spit 16' is very useful as it shows the small blister mid-way along the wing root fairing, that was unique to the Series 1; it covered the Typhoon centre section (from a cancelled Typhoon contract) which was used on the first 50 aircraft - to expedite production.The protruding cannon of the Mk.V series one are visible in several shots.  

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mk16-spitfire.jpg?w=768&h=560

2 hours ago, Chris Thomas said:

(including the one just before the Spit Pilots Notes - captioned as a Spit 16) An there was no trace of codes either side of the roundels - where I would have expected to see some indication at least

There looks to me to be faint traces of the squadron codes KZ forward of the roundel on this photo, quite dark but not quite as dark as the dark green camo - possibly roundel red?

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1 hour ago, Dave Swindell said:

 

 

mk16-spitfire.jpg?w=768&h=560

There looks to me to be faint traces of the squadron codes KZ forward of the roundel on this photo, quite dark but not quite as dark as the dark green camo - possibly roundel red?

I was actually at Specsavers this morning, ordering some new glasses!  Good spot Dave.l can't think why the codes should have been overpainted ... so maybe they were red. But why?  Answers in large print please.

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10 hours ago, Chris Thomas said:

l can't think why the codes should have been overpainted

I don't think they have been overpainted, fresh paint would tend to look darker and wouldn't normally be applied just on the letters, it usually overlaps onto the surrounding background. Although faint, the outline of the letters, or at least the lower half of them which aren't exposed to the sun's glare, is very clear. The original paint of the letters has either been very carefully removed (if so, why, if the photo was taken whilst still on squadron strength as appearance in the photo album would suggest?) or they're painted in a colour that doesn't contrast much from the dark green in the photo process used. I've assumed the latter, and the shade is close to the roundel centre, hence my suggestion of red  - as to why, I haven't a clue, I was rather hoping you might have an idea!

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On 10/20/2020 at 10:36 PM, Chris Thomas said:

I was actually at Specsavers this morning, ordering some new glasses!  Good spot Dave.l can't think why the codes should have been overpainted ... so maybe they were red. But why?  Answers in large print 

There's a guide in  British Aviation colours of WW2, RAF museum guide that says squadron codes for AA-Co-Op aircraft should be 'dull red' and serials 'night'.

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.seawings.co.uk/images/colour%20charts/British%20Aviation%20Colours%20of%20WWII.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjG0dLLpsjsAhX0pHEKHZNkAHkQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw1MnoVi6mDajf6tPYeGtqV0

Edited by Gomtuu
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23 hours ago, Gomtuu said:

There's a guide in  British Aviation colours of WW2, RAF museum guide that says squadron codes for AA-Co-Op aircraft should be 'dull red' and serials 'night'.

 

Excellent!  Many thanks for doing the legwork.

CT

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