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Blast from the past! Monogram 1/72 P-51B


opus999

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5 hours ago, silverkite211 said:

Here's how I did it in 1/48 scale.

That looks great! I think I will simplify that approach since I've determined that all I will really be able to see is the radio.

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All right, then... @silverkite211 and @Jackson Duvalier.... you guys gave me a nudge and I'm glad you did, so thank you!! :)  Last night I thought about how to make a box with the materials at hand.  My wife had some good ideas as well.  In the end I decided to cut rectangles from my thickest sheet styrene and stack them.  Then when the glue dried, I sanded each side flat.

 

vHMGlyH.jpg

 

The caps on top are from styrene rod.  Once I decided it was going to look OK, I did the dirty deed and used my trusty Dremel to get rid of the molded in radio.

 

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A little painting and drybrushing with silver later...

 

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I then fabricated a ledge, representing the top of the fuel tank, glued it in and painted the interior.

 

1ThelCX.jpg

 

A note about the interior:  Monogram wanted me to paint it Zinc Chromate, but I knew that it had to be an "Interior green" of some sort.  Eduard instructions for a P-51D, found on line, would have me mix Mr. Color Zinc Chromate with Black at 9:1.  But, when I looked at the Mr. Color Zinc Chromate, it was not as neon looking as the Testors stuff.  A little more research on cockpits on the internet and I decided that FS34102 (Mr. Color C303) was the best match to what I saw on line.  The wheel wells, however will be a straight ZC.  

 

So, once the radio was glued in, and the fuselage halves were dry fitted, I was a little disappointed to find that the radio sat a little lower than I wanted, despite all my careful dry fitting.  Not a huge deal, I doubt many will notice, but still....

 

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I detailed the seat:

 

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...and glued the whole kit'n'kaboodle together

 

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Monogram had me do the old cut-out-the-decal-and-glue-it trick for the instrument panel, but it looks reasonably good.

 

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 Lots of glue on the seams, so sanding will obliterate some of the raised detail.  Which is OK, because I found that filling the lines back in with a 0.2 mm pencil works well enough; you can't tell unless you get out a magnifying glass.

 

That's probably it for today....

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Simple modification, excellent result!  It takes some courage to attack a perfectly good kit with power tools, but once you're actually doing it, it feels good (fnaar).  🙂

 

I'd forgotten just how good that seat assembly part is, especially considering its vintage and the short shrift everything else in the cockpit received.

 

Have you given any thought as to how you'll add the rear quarter windows?  I'd have been tempted to get them situated before sticking the fuselage halves together.

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21 hours ago, Jackson Duvalier said:

It takes some courage to attack a perfectly good kit with power tools, but once you're actually doing it, it feels good

Heh. :devil:

 

21 hours ago, Jackson Duvalier said:

I'd forgotten just how good that seat assembly part is, especially considering its vintage and the short shrift everything else in the cockpit received.

Yeah, the seat is pretty nice.  The control stick looked like a broom handle.  Still... It's hard to see, so I'm not terribly concerned.

 

21 hours ago, Jackson Duvalier said:

Have you given any thought as to how you'll add the rear quarter windows?  I'd have been tempted to get them situated before sticking the fuselage halves together.

Well, the canopy is one piece so it shouldn't be a problem.  The old P-51 is going to get re-done with a Malcolm hood, so that will be the build where I need to plan the rear quarter windows ahead of time.

 

13 hours ago, silverkite211 said:

I think that is even more practical in 1/72 scale.

yeah, I agree.  It seems like over kill to paint a plastic IP and then put a decal on it when it will be hard (if not impossible) to see through the canopy.

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I finally made the decision to sand off all the raised panel lines and pencil them in at the end.  So, I made some rubbings on tracing paper of all the parts.

 

utQFrVc.jpg

 

The idea is I can measure them and then re-draw them on the model using the measurements.  We'll see how well that goes.

 

I also had some time to sand the seams on the fuselage.  There weren't any gaps, but there were some steps, especially on the bottom.  I suppose I could've cut off the alignment tabs and tried very hard to glue them so there were no steps, but it seems that sanding is easier! :)

 

qUs9pOA.jpg

 

Tomorrow I need to sand down the raised panel lines on the fuselage.  If I have time.  If I have more time, I need to glue the wings together.

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20 hours ago, Jackson Duvalier said:

I hadn't ever noticed this before, but the ammo bay door looks kind of long, more like on a P-51D.  Might want to check references before your final rescribing.

I took a look at several references, and as far as I can tell, the ammo bay door is the right size.

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Busy week, but I was able to grab a few minutes here and there to sand the raised detail off.  I tried to save some of the detail that would be hard to replicate, but unfortunately I didn't think of that until after I'd sanded the fuselage.

 

SiRgaFr.jpg

 

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It's interesting that I can still see the raised detail even though it is smooth under my fingernail.  Hopefully that will work to my advantage and it will still be visible after painting, which will help with penciling the panel lines back in.  That's how it worked with my F/A-18 and I'm hoping that's not a fluke!

 

I hope I can get to painting tomorrow I feel like I'm stuck in first gear... :) besides, I got some goodies in the mail today that I want to try on this build... 

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Had a little time after the family went to bed last night to paint the wheel wells, put the wings together and put the wings on the fuselage. The fit was mostly good.  The joint at the wing roots was probably the best I've ever had on a model, which is great!, The leading edges were very bad, with quite a step between the top and bottom, but luckily that's a very easy fix.  Probably the most troublesome part was where the wing assembly joins the fuselage on the underside behind the engine.  I think all models have a bit of a problem there, so that was nothing new.  Some patient filling and sanding took care of that this morning.  In general I think I spent an average amount of time sanding on the seams and I think it looks pretty good now.

 

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Since it's already the right color, I'll just put the decals on and call it good. :D Just kidding!  

 

Seriously, it's time to mask and primer.  I'm pretty excited about painting because I have some new things to try. My general plan is to follow what I did in my P-40M build, where I was really pleased with the realistically worn O.D. finish I was able to achieve. This time though, if I do any 'post-shading', I will try it with the airbrush rather than oil paint dot filtering, since I've gotten a little better at doing that kind of thing with the airbrush.

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Opus, coming along nicely—really great work on the color matching for the cockpit.  Question, as I always learn more from folks, what drove you to go with interior green for the wells? I have seen/heard of YZC, NMF, variations of the 2 and completely understand that there are valid colors I am not aware of—I could always be crossing P-51D info into B build as well.   Regardless, you are doing a simply spectacular job with this kit—given what you have done so far, I am sure it will turn out to be a masterpiece—best, Erwin

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2 hours ago, VT Red Sox Fan said:

Opus, coming along nicely—really great work on the color matching for the cockpit.  Question, as I always learn more from folks, what drove you to go with interior green for the wells? I have seen/heard of YZC, NMF, variations of the 2 and completely understand that there are valid colors I am not aware of—I could always be crossing P-51D info into B build as well.   Regardless, you are doing a simply spectacular job with this kit—given what you have done so far, I am sure it will turn out to be a masterpiece—best, Erwin

Hey thanks Erwin! Actually, I painted the wheel wells with Testor's Model Master Zinc Chromate.  It could look like interior green because of the black primer and my camera settings.  Although I confess I didn't stop to think whether it was Green or Yellow Zinc Chromate.  I grew up only knowing Green Zinc Chromate and I still forget to check whether I should be using green or yellow.

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38 minutes ago, opus999 said:

Hey thanks Erwin! Actually, I painted the wheel wells with Testor's Model Master Zinc Chromate.  It could look like interior green because of the black primer and my camera settings.  Although I confess I didn't stop to think whether it was Green or Yellow Zinc Chromate.  I grew up only knowing Green Zinc Chromate and I still forget to check whether I should be using green or yellow.

Opus, your vector may be more accurate—really appreciate you sharing your info—best, Erwin 

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5 minutes ago, VT Red Sox Fan said:

Opus, your vector may be more accurate—really appreciate you sharing your info—best, Erwin 

Well, I have new info!  I decided to do some research and found that the topic of wheel wells is somewhat unclear. First I read a discussion here: http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/2/t/155123.aspx?page=1 where many believe the wheel wells to be "silver" on B/C variants and ZC on D variants.  There is a picture of a bare metal P-51 under construction on that page that shows what appears to be ZC wheel wells.  That article linked to a couple other sources.  First, https://modelingmadness.com/review/allies/cleaver/tmc51d.htm says:

Quote

  Wheel wells: when all P-51s - from the A onward - came out of the factory, the wheel wells, the inside of the wheel well doors, the gear leg and the wheel hub, were all painted with aluminum lacquer.  The main wing spar - which forms the rear “bulkhead” of the wheel well - was painted yellow zinc chromate. As a matter of fact, the rear wall of the Mustang wheel well is the main spar, even in the area where the lower wing surface comes forward, which is wrong and has been universally done by all model companies as a wall that comes forward.

 

and

Quote

 Yes, some P-51s had zinc chromate wheel wells - but all evidence is this was either an “in the field” bit of work on a repaired airplane, or the result of a postwar IRAN rebuild.

 

However, I don't know what his basis for that is since he doesn't reference any sources.

 

The other link at the finescale forum  is https://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2004/02/stuff_eng_interior_colours_us_part2.htm.  IPMS Stockholm usually does a pretty good job of researching. This is a 3 part article about US interior colors.  Part one talks about the different colors used and why and I learned a lot from it.  Part 2, which I linked to above, says this about the P-51:

 

Quote

Similarly to other aircraft types, the camouflaged P-51 most probably had wheel wells painted in Neutral Grey. On later-production natural metal aircraft, the wheel wells were Interior Green. Additional piping and wiring inside the wheel well area was painted in Aluminium lacquer.

 

Neutral grey is a new one to me!  And he says "most probably" which doesn't fill me with confidence because it sounds like speculation. He does provide a bibliography of references at the end of part one, but using a statement like "most probably" makes me think it's his opinion.

 

There are a lot of pictures of "Shangri-La" out there, even some genuine color ones.  Unfortunately, this is the best photo of the wheel wells (which is not saying much):

 

DGentile.jpg
DGentile
U.S. Army Air Force, Public domain, via Wikimedia Commons

 

Looking carefully at the port-side wheel bay, you can just make out some silver colored framework in the wheel well.  This implies to me that the entire wheel well would be aluminum lacquer, because, why would they paint the framework one color and the rest of the bay a different color?  Additionally, I took this photo and lightened it up and zoomed in on the interior of the starboard gear door.  It's hard to tell, but I would say it looks more like aluminum than any green or yellow.

 

This photo of another famous P-51B shows the wheel bays better. It seems to confirm what modellingmadness said: the spar at the back is yellow ZC, and the other framework pieces are silver, implying that the rest of the bay is silver.  Additionally, the interior of the landing gear door is silver.

 

1024px-356FS_-_North_American_P-51B-5_Mu
356FS - North American P-51B-5 Mustang 43-6315 Ding Hao
United States Army Air Forces, Public domain, via Wikimedia Commons

 

So, I think maybe the wheel bays should be aluminum lacquer.  Of course, I can be persuaded differently if someone has different info!  At any rate, it will need to wait because my wheel bays are all masked for painting right now.

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1 hour ago, opus999 said:

This photo of another famous P-51B shows the wheel bays better. It seems to confirm what modellingmadness said: the spar at the back is yellow ZC, and the other framework pieces are silver, implying that the rest of the bay is silver.  Additionally, the interior of the landing gear door is silver.

 

1024px-356FS_-_North_American_P-51B-5_Mu
356FS - North American P-51B-5 Mustang 43-6315 Ding Hao
United States Army Air Forces, Public domain, via Wikimedia Commons

 

So, I think maybe the wheel bays should be aluminum lacquer.  Of course, I can be persuaded differently if someone has different info! 

Well when I built the 1/48 version of Monograms “B” earlier this year I used this very photo. ⬆️ I went the exact same route you're planning. Yellow ZC spar & Aluminum bays/doors. 

Edited by Corsairfoxfouruncle
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2 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

I went the exact same route you're planning. Yellow ZC spar & Aluminum bays/doors.

I'm in good company then! :)  Hey, would you happen to know how wide the white stripes on Shangri-La are?  The instructions that came with the decals aren't very helpful.

2 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Looking great, and I love the pics of Shangri-la and Ding Hao! Always wanted to do Shangri-la, but such a well-known plane needs to be done right!

 

Kind regards,

 

Mark

No pressure! :D  I agree though, one reason I've put this build off for so long is that I wanted to get my skills sharpened enough to make a decent attempt at it.

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In all the pictures I've found of Shangri-La with drop tanks, it has the teardrop shaped tanks.  The kit came with the longer, more cylindrical type tanks.  I wonder if Shangri-la was ever fitted with those? I thougt I read some where that those types of tanks were aluminum lacquered.  The Monogram instructions have you paint them O.D., but I don't think that's right.

 

Any opinions/information out there?

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Opus, I believe you are on totally on target--about the only thing guaranteed when if comes to Mustang wheel wells is controversy--for your P-51B, I hands down endorse the YZC spar and potentially stringers.  As I understand it, on Lopes Hope, Air Corps Aviation's research led them to paint the entire bay YZC (albeit P-51C vs the B you are building).  Eduard's P-51D instructions & OLeary's book building the P-51 seem to indicate YZC was used in the entire well starting on the D-15 and fwd.  That, said on the D's (block 1 - 10) the concesus seems to be NMF roof with a YZC spar and stringers--I believe it is a reasonable assumption that B were finished the same.  As I understand it, the A-36's well's were NG which would seem to mirror what I have learned on my P-40E build--I know, different companies.  All this said, I apologize for brining this up--BL, your build is awesome, & I don't think there really is anything definitive.  Here is a link to my P-51D build that should have some of my wheel well research and show how I used foil in the wheel wells (dull side).  All this said, there is a tremendous bench of understanding on this subject as you know--and I don't want to be known as that guy--particularly on subjects I enjoy typing a beer and learning from folks like you 🙂 😎  Best, Erwin 

  

https://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?/topic/19879-mustang-wings/

 

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1 hour ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

You're talking about the Theater I.D. Bands on top and bottom of wings and stabs ? If so then 15”

Yeah, that's what I meant.  Perfect, thanks! I didn't want to have to try and eyeball it. :)

 

I'm pretty sure I can get the positioning from the photos I collected.

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1 hour ago, VT Red Sox Fan said:

I apologize for brining this up

No need! Half the fun for me is learning and I appreciate when others who know something different than me teach me something new (or at least make me aware there's something to learn!).  Plus, I'm glad to get the info while I can still do something about it... ;) 

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1 hour ago, VT Red Sox Fan said:

Here is a link to my P-51D build that should have some of my wheel well research and show how I used foil in the wheel wells (dull side)

That build turned out beautifully! I have that kit in the stash and have been thinking a lot about it since starting this build.  That foiling looks great... nothing looks quite like real metal more than real metal!  I tried foil once on a spare MiG-15 kit I have and got about half done.  It looks fantastic, but frankly I got bored.  So it is still sitting half finished in a box.

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