T-38 Talon / F-5B differences. 1/72

[Lightningboy2000]

Recently acquired a 1/72 Twobobs T-38 Talon decal sheet with the intention of doing one of the black schemes with red codes. Got a thing about all black aircraft.

Since it appears that the Sword 1/72 T-38 kit is pretty much unavailable, I might have to convert one of my old Esci F-5B kits. 

I am aware of a few differences, wings, intakes & engine nozzles but I also understand that there might be a guide somewhere on how to make the changes. Maybe with some drawings?

 

I would also be interested if anyone is willing to part with a copy of the Sword kit.

 

Thanks

Martin

 

[Giorgio N]

There was an article in a magazine, I have a copy I can send you by email, give me a couple days.

Mind, the differences are many! Just off the top of my head, the lower fuselage is flat on the Talon and bulged on the F-5, the area before the windscreen is different, the landing gear and wheels are totally different.. and there should be more...in addition to the ones you have already found.

[Ossington 2]

Years ago I thought that a 'two seater Freedom Fighter' was the same as a Talon. Just needed different paint, right? Nope. biggest difference, and I didn't see it for decades, was the skinny bit in the middle area rule that the Talon has, never mind the height of the intakes etc. Don't go there, as they say!

[Lightningboy2000]

8 hours ago, Ossington said:

Years ago I thought that a 'two seater Freedom Fighter' was the same as a Talon. Just needed different paint, right? Nope. biggest difference, and I didn't see it for decades, was the skinny bit in the middle area rule that the Talon has, never mind the height of the intakes etc. Don't go there, as they say!

Well, you might have put me off hacking one of my kits up.

It might be a case of waiting around for the Sword kit or a bit more research.

Cheers

Martin

[Lightningboy2000]

10 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

There was an article in a magazine, I have a copy I can send you by email, give me a couple days.

Mind, the differences are many! Just off the top of my head, the lower fuselage is flat on the Talon and bulged on the F-5, the area before the windscreen is different, the landing gear and wheels are totally different.. and there should be more...in addition to the ones you have already found.

That magazine copy might be helpful thanks Giorgio. 

I have a feeling I'll find it hard to find the Sword kit. Sounds like a lot needs to be changed to the Esci kit then.

 

Cheers

Martin

[modelldoc]

Decades before I had build both planes.

The F-5B is an old Matchbox kit, but I used new markings for the ROKAF.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21603181@N08/16802816471/in/dateposted/

 

The T-38 Talon kit is from PM Models, also with new ROKAF markings.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21603181@N08/16802838862/in/dateposted/

 

The Hasegawa kit for the T-38 is a F-5b with a scratch build instruction , OMG

 

modelldoc

[Lightningboy2000]

19 minutes ago, modelldoc said:

Decades before I had build both planes.

The F-5B is an old Matchbox kit, but I used new markings for the ROKAF.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21603181@N08/16802816471/in/dateposted/

 

The T-38 Talon kit is from PM Models, also with new ROKAF markings.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/21603181@N08/16802838862/in/dateposted/

 

The Hasegawa kit for the T-38 is a F-5b with a scratch build instruction , OMG

 

modelldoc

Great looking kits. I was considering cross kitting some kits if I can find what I need.

Scratch building instructions in a Hasegawa kit? Whatever next?

I suppose it saves them having to creat a mould for new parts.

 

Martin

[Giorgio N]

Unfortunately life isn't easy for fans of the T-38 in 1/72 scale. The Sword kit is OOP and hard to find, particularly the T-38A (the C is slightly easier) while the Hasegawa and PM kits are not real T-38s and converting an F-5B is not easy.

In the end the easiest solution is to surrender to the 1/48 scale and buy the very nice Wolfpack kit, that cam often be found at great prices 

[CT7567]

The article alluded to above was by Paul Boyer in Fine Scale Modeler, IIRC sometime in the mid 90s. 

 

The discussion above suggests the Talon lacks area ruling, which isn't precisely correct. The "Coke bottle" central fuselages of the F-5B and T-38 are identical except for the belly, where the Talon has a "flatter" profile as well as different airbrakes.  Sword's kit - which was pretty clearly engineered based on the excellent ESCI F-5B - didn't get this quite right, and missed a couple of other distinctive Talon features such as landing gear and exhaust.  Sword is still by far the closest you can get out of the box, but I'll continue to hope Wolfpack will scale down their 1/48 kit rather than waste a penny on a kit in the wrong scale.

[72modeler]

There was a conversion article in the old Replica magazine, using the 1/72 Hasegawa T-38, which was actually a reboxed F-5B, but that issue is LONG OOP! I might have that issue, so will look for it to see what it has that might be useful. FineScale Modeler also did an article on converting the F-5 kit into a T-38, but I don't recall in what issue it was. - There was a Britmodeller discussion on this same topic back in 2016 by DMC, IIRC, that you could do a search for. In addition to the details already listed, the T-38 has different shaped speedbrakes, a landing light in the nose, pitot tube on the upper nose, and a sheet metal shroud around the burner cans. The T-38 had no leading edge maneuvering flaps and no wing chord extensions at the wing roots. Different nose gear strut, smaller mainwheels, and a flat belly without the bulges needed on the F-5B to cover the wider wheels and tires. T-38B's  had a gunsight and provision for a centerline pylon to carry a gun pod, fuel tank, or travel pod, IIRC. It's been a long, long time since I thought about the conversion, as I snagged the Sword kit as soon as it was released! Good luck!

Mike

Edited October 17, 2020 by 72modeler
added text

[Lightningboy2000]

3 hours ago, 72modeler said:

There was a conversion article in the old Replica magazine, using the 1/72 Hasegawa T-38, which was actually a reboxed F-5B, but that issue is LONG OOP! I might have that issue, so will look for it to see what it has that might be useful. FineScale Modeler also did an article on converting the F-5 kit into a T-38, but I don't recall in what issue it was. - There was a Britmodeller discussion on this same topic back in 2016 by DMC, IIRC, that you could do a search for. In addition to the details already listed, the T-38 has different shaped speedbrakes, a landing light in the nose, pitot tube on the upper nose, and a sheet metal shroud around the burner cans. The T-38 had no leading edge maneuvering flaps and no wing chord extensions at the wing roots. Different nose gear strut, smaller mainwheels, and a flat belly without the bulges needed on the F-5B to cover the wider wheels and tires. T-38B's  had a gunsight and provision for a centerline pylon to carry a gun pod, fuel tank, or travel pod, IIRC. It's been a long, long time since I thought about the conversion, as I snagged the Sword kit as soon as it was released! Good luck!

Mike

Many thanks Mike, very helpful thanks. Looks comprehensive.

I only ordered some TwoBobs decals a few weeks ago and this will be a project that I will come back to at a later date.

Just gathering info for this but currently on a few other builds at the moment & an EF-101B almost done.

I might actually go about converting the F-5B kit as I've got a few in the stash. Better than waiting ages for the Sword kit to come along.

 

One other question. How does the T-38 fuselage spine compare to the F-5B? Is it the same? 

 

Thanks for your help. 👍

Martin

[Lightningboy2000]

On 10/15/2020 at 2:37 AM, CT7567 said:

The article alluded to above was by Paul Boyer in Fine Scale Modeler, IIRC sometime in the mid 90s. 

 

The discussion above suggests the Talon lacks area ruling, which isn't precisely correct. The "Coke bottle" central fuselages of the F-5B and T-38 are identical except for the belly, where the Talon has a "flatter" profile as well as different airbrakes.  Sword's kit - which was pretty clearly engineered based on the excellent ESCI F-5B - didn't get this quite right, and missed a couple of other distinctive Talon features such as landing gear and exhaust.  Sword is still by far the closest you can get out of the box, but I'll continue to hope Wolfpack will scale down their 1/48 kit rather than waste a penny on a kit in the wrong scale.

Thanks for your help CT7567. I'll have to have a good look at that landing gear then & see if parts can be sourced from other kits or do some scratch building.

I won't be starting the kit for a while though, just pre planning for a future build & another excuse to build another all black jet aircraft.

Three other kits on the go & one almost ready to show at the moment, the all black EF-101B.

 

Cheers

Martin

[72modeler]

@Lightningboy2000

Here are some scale drawings that show the major external features of the T-38, including the spine.

http://misc.kitreview.com/bookreviews/t38bookpreviewbg_1.htm

 

Looking at numerous photos and the scale drawings and photos in the Squadron-Signal F-5/T-38 In Action, it looks to me like the canopies and spines of both the T-38 and the F-5B are the same. I'm still looking for my copy of the Replica Magazine that described what needed to be done to convert the Hasegawa T-38 (really an F-5B!) into an accurate T-38. If I can find it, I will post the details.

Mike

 

 

[Lightningboy2000]

32 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

@Lightningboy2000

Here are some scale drawings that show the major external features of the T-38, including the spine.

http://misc.kitreview.com/bookreviews/t38bookpreviewbg_1.htm

 

Looking at numerous photos and the scale drawings and photos in the Squadron-Signal F-5/T-38 In Action, it looks to me like the canopies and spines of both the T-38 and the F-5B are the same. I'm still looking for my copy of the Replica Magazine that described what needed to be done to convert the Hasegawa T-38 (really an F-5B!) into an accurate T-38. If I can find it, I will post the details.

Mike

 

 

Fantastic, thanks Mike! Much appreciated, that side drawing is very handy!

Never realised that Daco did a booklet on it! I know a good shop that sells those Squadron Signal books, I'll have to check see if they've got it.

The more I look at what needs to be done to convert the kit, it doesn't look like too bad a job.

Just need the right size wheels. Looking at a side view of 66-0332 the main wheels look very similar in diameter to the nose wheel which is unusual.

What we need is a jet trainer group build to get me started! 

 

Martin

[J.C. Bahr]

November 1995 was the Finescale Modeler issue that had the article on converting the ESCI F-5B and it was not Paul Boyer, but Tom Black who wrote that article.

 

Besides thinning the belly in the area of the main wheels, filling in the speed brakes/re-scribing them, removing the LERX leading edges, closing/filling-in the leading edge slats, re-shaping the intake lips, thinning the main wheels, using a nose-gear fork half from an Testors/Italeri F-5E, a nose-wheel from an ESCI F-104C, adding the landing light under the nose, back-filling/re-shaping of the drag-chute housing at the base of the tail, adding the sheet metal fairing bridging the tops of the exhaust cans, removing a tear-drop fairing on both sides of the vertical stab in front of the rudder, modifying the existing ejection seats to have chute housings for the head-rests and a few other blade antenna additions... there's not a whole lot of other heavy work to get a passable (early) T-38.

 

In regards to the wheels... I have some thoughts on this...  since the article was written in 1995, the after-market has matured and here is what I've been eyeing towards my own conversion...

 

ResKit has recently released a couple of Navy T-28 sets that I believe their nose-wheels could be used for the cause:

 

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/RS72-0206?result-token=zXtV9

 

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/RS72-0208?result-token=zXtV9

 

For the early style mains (that I believe there were two styles of also)... I think early/late A-4 Skyhawk mains would be passable:

 

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/AIRE7238?result-token=JPv4F

 

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/AIRE7242?result-token=JPv4F

 

As for the later style mains with the holes in them?... jury is still out on that one... I have not ran across anything else that seems close... unless anyone else can weigh in with ideas?

 

Other thoughts?

[RAGATIGER]

On 10/13/2020 at 1:15 AM, Giorgio N said:

There was an article in a magazine, I have a copy I can send you by email, give me a couple days.

Mind, the differences are many! Just off the top of my head, the lower fuselage is flat on the Talon and bulged on the F-5, the area before the windscreen is different, the landing gear and wheels are totally different.. and there should be more...in addition to the ones you have already found.

 

Hi there

I remmember reading something about it written by Paul Boyer noneless in Fine Scale Magazine in the 90s

Regards

 

Armando