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Confused about British aircraft naming convention


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On 10/10/2020 at 2:28 PM, Dervish said:

The U.K. no longer has a system for naming aircraft and allocating role prefix letters and hasn’t had for some time. It is up to the MOD service department introducing a new aircraft to give it a name or designation. They only have to have mark numbers starting at ‘1’ although even that has gone by the wayside for, as previously mentioned, the F-35B along with Airseeker don’t even have mark numbers. Military Aviation Authority Regulatory Article 5307 refers.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/863141/RA5307_Issue_2.pdf

Ah RA mind throbbingly confusing and vague just made to cause an arguement between the pointy end and the Delivery team...(IPT in old money).

Meanwhile as for SHARS .As someone mention the Mk2 was for a short time FRS 2 however with the removal /non included Bucket of sunshine role ...changed to FA2 ....but guess what still had a recce role with the F95 camera which was still fitted as required so errr....

 

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14 hours ago, Dave Fleming said:

 

No, those were official too. For example. in July 1918, it was decreed that Rolls Royce should use Birds of Prey, Napier, Arms and Weapons, Armstrong-Siddely cats, Bristol, stars and Planets and Wosley , Snakes.

 

The allocations did change later, and as more companies became engine manufacturers and others faded into obscurity

The system also collapsed due to mergers, which led to combinations like the Rolls Royce Olympus (originally a Bristol design), etcetera. 

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

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Why is the RAF’s latest trainer the Beechcraft Texan T.MK called that? Why not the Harvard T.MK1? The RAF never flew Texans (or SNJ’s for that matter) so logically Harvard makes more sense. After all the Canadians call theirs Harvard’s!

 

Trevor

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20 minutes ago, Max Headroom said:

Why is the RAF’s latest trainer the Beechcraft Texan T.MK 1called that? Why not the Harvard T.MK1? The RAF never flew Texans (or SNJ’s for that matter) so logically Harvard makes more sense. After all the Canadians call theirs Harvard’s!

 

Trevor

Logic? Isn't this the Government we're taling about? ;)

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

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The Harrier was often referred to as Harrier I or Harrier II, denoting 1st or 2nd generation: hence "Harrier I" included GR1, T2, GR3, T4, Sea Harrier, AV-8A etc;  "Harrier II" covered the GR5/AV-8B and subsequent versions.

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1 hour ago, Max Headroom said:

Why is the RAF’s latest trainer the Beechcraft Texan T.MK 1called that? Why not the Harvard T.MK1? The RAF never flew Texans (or SNJ’s for that matter) so logically Harvard makes more sense. After all the Canadians call theirs Harvard’s!

 

Trevor

 

On the other hand the US aircraft is named Texan and names different from the original US oned stopped being used with the Hellcat, when the British name Gannet was replaced by the US name. 

Using the Harvard name would have been just a historic touch with no connection to the naming convention in place on the day the current type was adopted.

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5 minutes ago, Giorgio N said:

 

On the other hand the US aircraft is named Texan and names different from the original US oned stopped being used with the Hellcat, when the British name Gannet was replaced by the US name. 

Using the Harvard name would have been just a historic touch with no connection to the naming convention in place on the day the current type was adopted.

 

Not quite. I refer you to the Boeing Washington.

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19 minutes ago, Truro Model Builder said:

 

Not quite. I refer you to the Boeing Washington.

 

Good point, had forgotten this one. Wonder if it was the last time a US aircraft got a different name? Later types like Sabre, Phantom, Skyraider, Hercules, they kept the original name. 

Some helicopters differed but then these types often had more than one name even in US service..

 

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16 minutes ago, Giorgio N said:

 

 

 

Good point, had forgotten this one. Wonder if it was the last time a US aircraft got a different name? Later types like Sabre, Phantom, Skyraider, Hercules, they kept the original name. 

Some helicopters differed but then these types often had more than one name even in US service..

 

 

Probably the current Beech King Air variants - Avenger and Shadow - are the only ones I can think of since the Washington. 

Edited by Dave Fleming
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I'm not at all sure that the Royal Navy King Air is officially called Avenger. I have seen it often referred to as such, but have seen it called King Air just as often.

 

Not long after they had arrived at Culdrose, when they were still grounded prior to being cleared for service, I was on an enthusiasts tour and remarked to 750's Senior Pilot that perhaps they ought to name the four aircraft Emma Peel, Tara King, Cathy Gayle and Purdey. He quite liked the idea.

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3 hours ago, Max Headroom said:

Why is the RAF’s latest trainer the Beechcraft Texan T.MK 1called that?

 

I find it amusing that the Pilatus PC-9 was rejected all those years ago in favour of the Shorts Tucano - and here we are years later purchasing the Texan - which is, essentially a warmed over PC-9 !!

 

Full circle...

 

Ken

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On 10/10/2020 at 6:21 PM, Jabba said:

 

You also had Nimrod MR1 and Nimrod R1 (which were new builds).

 

There are suggestions that this was a mild piece of deception (to allow 'accidental on purpose' typographical errors), although the source material for that is a couple of ex-543/51 Sqn mates armed with a pint glass at the time, so I'd not place a high degree of confidence in that particular bit of intelligence...

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57 minutes ago, junglierating said:

Bet it's still king air still since 846 have an Avenger call sign 

 

It's  listed in the Airfield Fire Fighting Plan document as Avenger (and Shadow), P6 of the linked document https://www.aidu.mod.uk/aip/pdf/ad/AD-1-2.pdf. (Safety documents are often a good source of such intel, I was always surprised that the Aircraft Crash hazards documentation was on the public side of the MOD website - apparently so were the Americans,as it's now been removed due to ITAR (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/mod-aircraft-crash-hazards-achaz-document-set) - it was another that gave full designation info (e.g. the Army Dauphins are designated AHmk1)
 

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3 hours ago, Dave Fleming said:

 

It's  listed in the Airfield Fire Fighting Plan document as Avenger (and Shadow), P6 of the linked document https://www.aidu.mod.uk/aip/pdf/ad/AD-1-2.pdf. (Safety documents are often a good source of such intel, I was always surprised that the Aircraft Crash hazards documentation was on the public side of the MOD website - apparently so were the Americans,as it's now been removed due to ITAR (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/mod-aircraft-crash-hazards-achaz-document-set) - it was another that gave full designation info (e.g. the Army Dauphins are designated AHmk1)
 

Hmm well if I pop down to the Cornish air station ill make it a mission Dave🤪 Wonder what the official title for the King Airs at Waddington are......they were called King Airs in Afghanistan ....i guess things find an equilibrium 

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32 minutes ago, junglierating said:

Hmm well if I pop down to the Cornish air station ill make it a mission Dave🤪 Wonder what the official title for the King Airs at Waddington are......they were called King Airs in Afghanistan ....i guess things find an equilibrium 

They are Shadow R Mk 1s.

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23 hours ago, Dave Fleming said:

 

Probably the current Beech King Air variants - Avenger and Shadow - are the only ones I can think of since the Washington. 

 

Thanks ! Have to say that however even the US military never used the name King Air, as the C-12 is named Huron and the RC-12 is named Guardrail. Makes sense that the UK gave whatever name they liked to these aircraft.

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On 10/10/2020 at 10:27 PM, Truro Model Builder said:

ANDOVER (Avro and Hawker Siddeley)

ATLAS (Armstrong Whitworth and Airbus)

BULLDOG (Bristol and Scottish Aviation)

FIREFLY (Fairey (biplane) and Fairey)

FURY (Hawker and Hawker)

HORNET (Hawker (prototype only) and de Havilland)

LIGHTNING (Lockheed, English Electric, and Lockheed Martin)

NIMROD (Hawker and Hawker Siddeley)

SCOUT (Bristol and Westland)

TEMPEST (Hawker and (possibly!) BAE Systems)

TORNADO (Hawker and Panavia)

TYPHOON (Hawker and Eurofighter)

WHIRLWIND (Westland and Westland)

WILDCAT (Grumman and AgustaWestlnd)

 

Two more for the list: Tutor and Prefect (in both cases, Avro and Grob). 

On 10/12/2020 at 12:48 PM, Dave Fleming said:

As Dervish says, there is no standard (even for what the designators mean) and they make it up as they go along. So 'A' can mean Attack, Army, Anti (submarine) or Airborne (as in AEW) or whatever the project team want it to. Even the same designator can have different meanings - AH was traditionally Army helicopter, but i believe for the Apache it stands for Attack Helicopter.

 

A can also be Air, as in HAR2, 3 and 3A (Helicopter Air Rescue) 

Edited by torqueofthedevil
Clarity (maybe!)
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On 10/12/2020 at 12:48 PM, Dave Fleming said:

As Dervish says, there is no standard (even for what the designators mean) and they make it up as they go along. So 'A' can mean Attack, Army, Anti (submarine) or Airborne (as in AEW) or whatever the project team want it to. Even the same designator can have different meanings - AH was traditionally Army helicopter, but i believe for the Apache it stands for Attack Helicopter.

That's a bit unfair.  Yes, the same letter appears in multiple designators (you omitted A for All in FAW) but that isn't quite the same as "making it up as they go along".   The system has merely evolved over time, with any number of old designators becoming obsolete eg NF, FAW, S and even B  and new ones needing to be created.  That's not to dispute your general point that the system is now descending into disrepair/anarchy, with some types apparently receiving old-style designators eg Poseidon MRA.1 and Avenger T.1 and others not (RC-135, F-35B Lightning): perhaps the guiding principle is not to require our allies to think too hard about what the UK types are talking about.   For me the rot set in with the faddish F/A.2 for the Sea Harrier in emulation of the F/A-18.  Anyway I expect nowadays MoD have greater concerns on their minds, like where the next £ is coming from.

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