Confused about British aircraft naming convention

[DrumBum]

Hi all,

 

I thought I had a handle on British aircraft as far as the abbreviations used for various roles.

 

But there are some that I don't yet understand.

 

The F-4 in RAF guise was called an FGR, fighter, ground attack and recon. But in the Navy it was an FG, no recon.

Did the Navy not conduct a recon role and also what recon gear did the FGR have that the FG did not?

 

Then I noticed a Sea Harrier F(A)2.

My understanding was that the Navy Harrier was an FRS, fighter, recon and maritime strike but then the FA2 came along which I guess is for Attack?

So is there a difference between strike, attack and ground attack?

 

Thanks for any input

 

Yours confusedly,

 

DB

 

 

Edited October 8, 2020 by DrumBum
spelling mistake

[Mr T]

Someone more knowledgeable will be along in a minute, but so far as I remember.

The Phantom FG1 was bought as a Fleet defence fighter with a secondary attack role with no provision for reconnaissance. The Phantom FGR2 was bought initially as a ground attack and reconnaissance aircraft with an external centre line pod with a secondary air combat role. The FGR2 was then re-roled as an interceptor as a Lightning replacement when the Jaguar entered service

The S in FRS1 stood for strike which in Navy terms meant nuclear strike (the Buccaneer was designed to toss nucs or nuclear missiles at Soviet cruisers). The Sea Harrier FA2 did not have a nuclear role. 

Role designations are subject to change, thus ground attack Hunters were FGA9 or FR10 and Harriers and Jaguars were GR1. 

[Boman]

Not an expert, but found some interesting info: 
Phantom FG1: (F-4K) Ordered as fleet air defence fighter for the RN with secondary ground attack mission. Hence "FG"

Phantom FGR2 (F-4M) Orderer largely as the FG1 but intended for close air support. I guess this will account for the "FGR". 

In all fairness, it would probably be more sensible to put the number before the letters (Phantom 1 vs. Phantom 2), as the number otherwise have no function as I understand it? Might be wrong though? 

 

For Typhoons, you have a somewhat similar arrangement: 
Two-seaters are essentially "Typhoon 1" while single seaters initially were "Typhoon 2" This explains why the dual seateres were called "T1" and the single seater "F2". 

(T is for Trainer while F is for fighter). The F2's where eventually upgraded and mission profile expanded from pure A2A to full multirole. This upgrade led to the upgraded Trainers (dual seaters) becoming "Typhoon 3" while the upgraded F2's (single seaters) becoming "Typhoon 4" (= FGR4)

Again, the number comes in an "odd" place compared to the letters denoting the mission profile. 

 

Then the fun begins, as the RAF Harriers are actually consistent in their numbering and evolution through GR1, T2, GR3/A, T4, GR5, T6, GR7, T8, Gr9, T10 and eventually T12. (No GR 11 as far as I know. Again, the number is located in an "odd" position compared to the lettering But consistent atleast and in line with Typhoons and Phantoms. Those Harriers with an -A in addition is used to differentiate the upgrade engine as opposed to those with "ordinary" engines. THis practice was also used on the Jaguar, but not others. 

 

Tornado's will follow a similar path, however the "Tornado 1" is the inital close support version, with F2 being the first Interseptor. Then the interceptor is upgraded to the F3, followed by the GR1 upgrade to GR4(A). Again, Tornado 1, 2, 3 and 4. As the Tornado is dual seat, a (T) is added for the dedicated trainers, and the A is for dedicated recon versions. Go figure? 

 

Jaguars follow suite with the above, so not repeating this 

 

For the F-35B, I belive the UK was denied the option of introducing local designation as this would by definition make the UK versions differ from the similar US F-35B and subsequent upgrades to come. Hence they were "persuaded" to maintain the F-35B designation  as opposed to "Lightening FG1" 

 

Just my 2cc
 

Edited October 8, 2020 by Boman

[Graham Boak]

S was also used for RAF Buccaneers.  However, the FGA Mk 9 Hunter had a different role from the FR Mk.10, which contained cameras.  Note that Mk. is an abbreviation for Mark Number, which is part of the official designation but often omitted in casual use.

 

The role letters come first, then the Mark number, then any additional code for a sub-variant.  These can simply be sequential A, B, C but in the case of the Tornado the two-stickers have T as a suffix because retain the full attack capability. Usually the Mark number would rise when a significantly different engine was installed

 

It seems that the system has fallen into some decay with time: the Jaguar was considerably modified and uprated without a change of designation until late in its career.

[AMB]

Another conundrum relates the the Sea Vixen FAW.2s converted to drones for use by the RAE at Lanbedr. Whilst some were given D.3 as the mark number, they were never converted to tow targets and sources quote them as Mark FAW(TT)2, yet how can that be as they are no longer 'Fighter All Weather' fighters? Should they all be D.3s? Apparently they were even referred to as 'TT.4s'!!!

Edited October 8, 2020 by AMB

[exdraken]

nice summary thanks!

 

there was also a Tornado GR1 B, for anti shipping role, no?

 

and the UK F-35B is Lighting only, opposed to Lightning II, no?

[Giorgio N]

Of the various designations IMHO the really unusual one is the Sea Harrier FA.2, particularly as this was for a while known as F/A.2, a type of designation that was not typical in UK service. Later the designation became FA.2, that makes some more sense... only some, as the FG or FGA designation would have been more in line with the tradition.

I don't have any source confirming this, but I always felt that the F/A.2 designation was a commercial gimmick to try and cash in on the similarity with the F/A-18 designation, implying that the new Harrier was a carrierborne multirole aircraft in the same league as the US design

[alhenderson]

30 minutes ago, exdraken said:

nice summary thanks!

 

there was also a Tornado GR1 B, for anti shipping role, no?

 

and the UK F-35B is Lighting only, opposed to Lightning II, no?

There was a GR.1B briefly in the mid nineties when the buccs were withdrawn. Operated by 12 sqn (and 617?).  I don't think GR.4s were Sea Eagle capable.

 

Also don't think there was, technically, a GR.4A. Think the internal recce gear was ditched in the GR.4 upgrade and the RAPTOR pod took over.  The windows were still present, though.

 

F-35s don't have a UK designation either, e.g FGR.1 etc. Maybe that's to do with the supporting computer systems and paperwork being US based?

 

Al

[iainpeden]

Just to add another discrepancy; the F-4Js which the RAF got post Falklands were designated F-4J (UK) not as is sometime reported Phantom F.3 (which would have been confusing and probably got them mixed up with the Tornado F.3s also around at the time)

[RichG]

1 hour ago, Giorgio N said:

Of the various designations IMHO the really unusual one is the Sea Harrier FA.2, particularly as this was for a while known as F/A.2, a type of designation that was not typical in UK service.

I agree, definitely an odd man out.

Following the Sea Harrier's mid-life update, the resulting aircraft was initially designated FRS.Mk 2.  In May 1994 the official designation was changed to Sea Harrier F/A.Mk 2 – indicating a dual Fighter/Attack role. The replacement of ‘Strike’ by ‘Attack’ to indicate the formal abandonment of nuclear weapons delivery as an operational role. In March 1995 the unusual ‘/’ in the official designation (presumably originally influenced by the USN designation of the F/A-18  ) was dropped, becoming Sea Harrier FA.Mk 2.   

 

Natural order restored... although the distinction between the "G", "GA" and " A" has never been clear to me - maybe a respective Service thing. 

 

Rich

 

PS Hadn't really thought about the F-35B in RAF/RN service, but yes it should really be the Lightning FG.1 - what a shame it sounds much better.  I'd have loved to have been a fly on the wall at the meeting that agreed to that...

 

Edited October 8, 2020 by RichG

[Boman]

The Jaguar GR1B was dedicated to carrying the sea skua (?) missile, however I understand the capability was incorporated into the GR3/GR3A upgrade. 

 

RAF Tornado GR1 came in 2 versions: Ordinary GR1 and GR1A. The GR1A is a dedicated recon version where the guns have been removed in favour of recon equipment. These naturally became GR4 and GR4A respectively. Compared to the Jaguar, the -A doesn't denote upgrade enginre, but recon version. 

 

The F-35 is the Lightening II as it carries the name over from the P-38 LIghtening of WW2. 

 

The F-4J (UK) was used as they never updated the F-4J's to full UK standards as per FG1/FGR2, they even retained US radios as I understand them. 

 

One must remember that across aircraft types (Jaguar vs. Tornado vs. Typhoon vs. Harrier) the UK system isn't very generic, so you have to look at each type to fully understand what the numenclature is for each. I think it's gotten better in modern times, but still "deviating" a bit compared to other countries practices. 

 

The Wiki article on ie. the Phantom and Jaguar is actually quite good of explaining this without digging to the bottom, so recommend this for those interested.
(No point in discussing accuracy of Wiki, that is not the intention of refering to it )  

[Giorgio N]

36 minutes ago, Boman said:

The Jaguar GR1B was dedicated to carrying the sea skua (?) missile, however I understand the capability was incorporated into the GR3/GR3A upgrade. 

 

 

 

No Sea Skua was ever used on the Jaguar, the GR.1B designation was assigned to a dozen or so aircraft made compatible with the TIALD pod. The previous GR.1A had seen the introduction of avionics and engine upgrades

 

36 minutes ago, Boman said:

RAF Tornado GR1 came in 2 versions: Ordinary GR1 and GR1A. The GR1A is a dedicated recon version where the guns have been removed in favour of recon equipment. These naturally became GR4 and GR4A respectively. Compared to the Jaguar, the -A doesn't denote upgrade enginre, but recon version. 

 

 

There was also a Tornado GR.1B, as mentioned above identifying those aircraft wired for the Sea Eagle antiship missile.

 

36 minutes ago, Boman said:

The F-35 is the Lightening II as it carries the name over from the P-38 LIghtening of WW2. 

 

 

I know, I'm being an annoying nitpicker today... its Lightning, as in the electrical discharge in the sky. Lightening has a different meaning.

It is indeed strange that the F-35 has not received a "standard" UK designation but is named according to the US system even in RAF service. In theory should have become something like Lightning FGR.1 or FRS.1 or whatever mission designator would be found more suitable. I guess only Lightning as I can't remember the RAF or the FAA having ever added a "II" to any aircraft in their designation. Not that there have been many names reused over time, only that comes to my mind is Atlas, the AW biplane in the '20s and today's transport. There could have been a Fury if the RAF had adopted the Hawker fighter in the late '40s, but only the FAA got them as Sea Fury.

 

36 minutes ago, Boman said:

The F-4J (UK) was used as they never updated the F-4J's to full UK standards as per FG1/FGR2, they even retained US radios as I understand them. 

 

 

Even if the type remained pretty close to its previous US standard, it could have easily been renamed Phantom F.3, afterall it was a Phantom. The RAF kept the name Spitfire for variants that were very different between each other and the same occurred for other types. That they didn't was probably mainly due to the some administrative reason more than else.

 

Hope you don't mind these corrections... as I said I know that today I'm being a total annoying nitpicker... 🤣

Edited October 9, 2020 by Giorgio N

[tweeky]

Quote

The F-4J (UK) was used as they never updated the F-4J's to full UK standards as per FG1/FGR2, they even retained US radios as I understand them.

The F4J (UK) was totally American the engines were J79's and the aircrew use US spec survival gear.  Can't remember  what style of bone dome they used.

[Hook]

18 hours ago, iainpeden said:

Just to add another discrepancy; the F-4Js which the RAF got post Falklands were designated F-4J (UK) not as is sometime reported Phantom F.3 (which would have been confusing and probably got them mixed up with the Tornado F.3s also around at the time)

Well, when the Tornado F.3 became operational, Binbrook still flew a number of Lightning F.3's... nobody mixed those two up, to the best of my knowledge.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[Sky dancer]

1 hour ago, tweeky said:

The F4J (UK) was totally American the engines were J79's and the aircrew use US spec survival gear.  Can't remember  what style of bone dome they used.

At least up to the late 1980's the helmet worn was the U.S. Navy HGU-33/P.

 

There are photo's that appear to show that at that stage British G-suits were worn, but the life preserver appears to be U.S., harness has the Koch fittings for the U.S. standard MB Mk. H-7 seat.

[XV107]

2 hours ago, Hook said:

Well, when the Tornado F.3 became operational, Binbrook still flew a number of Lightning F.3's... nobody mixed those two up, to the best of my knowledge.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

 

Well that was because you just waited for 10 minutes and if they'd not declared Bingo fuel by that point, they were Tornados. If they had...

 

[Ex-FAAWAFU]

And just going back to your original post, the RN Tooms (FG1) didn’t gave recce specified because the Buccaneers did it

[Boman]

12 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

 

Hope you don't mind these corrections... as I said I know that today I'm being a total annoying nitpicker... 🤣

No problem, thanks for the correction - you're right about the Jaguar GR1B beind adapted for TIALD while the Tornado GR1B was adapted for the sea skua. Mixed them up myself 🤣

[Julien]

12 hours ago, tweeky said:

The F4J (UK) was totally American the engines were J79's and the aircrew use US spec survival gear.  Can't remember  what style of bone dome they used.

In typical MOD style they upgraded all the Crew gear to UK spec, just before retiring them!

[Julien]

6 hours ago, Boman said:

No problem, thanks for the correction - you're right about the Jaguar GR1B beind adapted for TIALD while the Tornado GR1B was adapted for the sea skua. Mixed them up myself 🤣

That would Be Sea Eagle, the Sea Skua was a helicopter missile for the Lynx.

[Dervish]

The U.K. no longer has a system for naming aircraft and allocating role prefix letters and hasn’t had for some time. It is up to the MOD service department introducing a new aircraft to give it a name or designation. They only have to have mark numbers starting at ‘1’ although even that has gone by the wayside for, as previously mentioned, the F-35B along with Airseeker don’t even have mark numbers. Military Aviation Authority Regulatory Article 5307 refers.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/863141/RA5307_Issue_2.pdf

[Truro Model Builder]

It has become something of a nonsense in recent years, and although in the past there has been the occasionally oddity (Sea Prince C. Mk.1 and T. Mk.1, Shackleton MR.2, T.2 and AEW.2) I think the rot set in when the AEW variant of the Sea King was designated AEW. Mk.2 (as they were modified from HAS. Mk.2s) when they should really have become the AEW. Mk.6.

 

The F-4J(UK) Phantom II was indeed the official designation within the MoD, and it was apparently to avoid administrative confusion with the Tornado F. Mk.3.

 

The F-35B Lightning II has had the 'II' dropped by the MoD, and is officially F-35B Lightning.

 

The C-17A Globemaster III was never given a British mark number as it was originally a leased aircraft, and following outright purchase has stayed that way.

 

The RC-135W is the RC-135W. Airseeker is the name of the overall programme, and not one applied to the aircraft (thankfully).

 

The EMBRAER Phenom has not received a mark designation, while the Grob Prefect and Beechcraft Texan have (although I still say the Texan should be named Harvard).

 

On transfer to the RAF from the Army Air Corps, the Islander AL. Mk.1 and Defender AL. Mk.1 have been redesignated Islander R. Mk.1 and Defender R. Mk.1.

 

All Typhoon single seaters are referred to FGR. Mk.4s, but the differences between Tranche 1, 2 and 3A are such that really they warrant new mark numbers.

 

I did hear a rumour that the MoD dropped the 'Mk' from designations due to the inability of software to deal with it, but have never had it substantiated.

 

Basically, the whole thing has become an absolute mess, and I really think they ought to pass the job over to someone with an interest in the subject. Naturally, I offer my services.

Edited October 10, 2020 by Truro Model Builder

[Jabba]

36 minutes ago, Truro Model Builder said:

It has become something of a nonsense in recent years, and although in the past there has been the occasionally oddity (Sea Prince C. Mk.1 and T. Mk.1, Shackleton MR.2, T.2 and AEW.2) I think the rot set in when the AEW variant of the Sea King was designated AEW. Mk.2 (as they were modified from HAS. Mk.2s) when they should really have become the AEW. Mk.6.

 

 

You also had Nimrod MR1 and Nimrod R1 (which were new builds).

[Phone Phixer]

The adoption (or not) of role designation letters just can't be followed lately. The US built and supplied F-35B has none. But the US built and supplied Poseidon is given MRA 1. Go figure. 

[SAT69]

2 hours ago, Truro Model Builder said:

 

All Typhoon single seaters are referred to FGR. Mk.4s, but the differences between Tranche 1, 2 and 3A are such that really they warrant new mark numbers.

I'm open to being corrected, but I thought the early single-seaters were designated F. Mk.2 and when updated became F. Mk.2A. Whether they were subsequently brought up to FGR. Mk. 4s I can't say. Early trainers were T. Mk.1 and T. Mk.1A when updated, as I recall.