First USAF loss SEA. C-47B 44-76330?

[Killingholme]

Hi all,

 

On 23 March 1961, during the early period of US intervention in South East Asia, a specially modified SC-47 intelligence gathering aircraft was lost while travelling from Vientane to identify Pathet Lao forces on the western edge of the Plain of Jars. The aircraft, 44-76330 was there to identify frequencies used by the Soviet pilots operating in the area. The Pathel Lao anti-aircraft batteries opened fire and downed the aircraft. Only one crew member, a US Army Major, survived and was captured by the Pathet Lao. 

 

Photographs are obviously very allusive of these semi-clandestine aircraft. So would anyone be able to chime in on the two questions most pertinent to anyone trying to model this aircraft:

 

1) What were the visual modifications made to a C-47 to turn it into a SC-47?

2) What markings/camo (if any) was 44-76330 wearing at the time of its loss?

 

Any pointers greatly appreciated.

 

Will

 

[TheyJammedKenny!]

SC-47?  Are you sure of the designation?  That would make it a rescue aircraft, rather than a SIGINT bird.  My guess is that it was bare metal with a white upper fuselage, and black-painted areas around the engines to protect them against exhaust.

 

 I had no idea there were Soviet pilots in the area.  What were they doing?  Flying in air-drops with IL-14s?  

 

More likely the SIGINT aircraft was used to HFDF manual-morse radio signals from Pathet Lao ground forces.  That's what our EC-47s did during the major part of the war, and it was dangerous work.  There's a website dedicated to it here: http://ec47.com.  Almost anything and everything you want to know about what we did in Vietnam, SIGINT-wise, is located there.  I believe Norm Taylor, one of the biggest U.S. collectors/suppliers of aviation photos, was a "back-ender" on the EC-47.

[TheyJammedKenny!]

@Killingholme: I just checked the web-site I recommended earlier, and recommend you navigate to this page to see an early EC-47 painted in exactly the scheme I described in my previous post: http://ec47.com/4-widening-the-war-in-64.  This excellent site also gives you the antenna configurations of the aircraft at various times in their careers.  

[Guest]

Here is a Douglas SC-47. Resue plane? Doesn't look very covert.---John

[RidgeRunner]

I can see reports of it being an "SC-47" but also as a C-47B. I suspect that officially she was the latter. Given the nature of the operations could it have been that she was maarked as a RESCUE machine for pausibility? Its probably a good cover story if you are drifting around enemy territory? Just a thought. :)

 

Martin

 

[alt-92]

Cover blown: what exactly are you trying to rescue in territory you're not supposed to be in?

 

[Egi vandor]

21 hours ago, TheyJammedKenny! said:

SC-47?  Are you sure of the designation?  That would make it a rescue aircraft, rather than a SIGINT bird.  My guess is that it was bare metal with a white upper fuselage, and black-painted areas around the engines to protect them against exhaust.

 

 I had no idea there were Soviet pilots in the area.  What were they doing?  Flying in air-drops with IL-14s?  

 

More likely the SIGINT aircraft was used to HFDF manual-morse radio signals from Pathet Lao ground forces.  That's what our EC-47s did during the major part of the war, and it was dangerous work.  There's a website dedicated to it here: http://ec47.com.  Almost anything and everything you want to know about what we did in Vietnam, SIGINT-wise, is located there.  I believe Norm Taylor, one of the biggest U.S. collectors/suppliers of aviation photos, was a "back-ender" on the EC-47.

Yes, Farm Gate planes realy had designation SC-47. They were modified for special missions: night penetrations and supply of friendly guerrillas or Special Forces, day penetra­tions and drops, medical evacuations, leaflet and loudspeaker operations, and forward field operations. Planes had larger fuel tanks, hand pump to refuel from fifty-five-gallon drums, ultra high frequency (UHF), very high frequency (VHF), and high frequency (HF) radios, exhaust flame dampeners, at­tachments for jet-assisted takeoffs, loudspeakers, and litter supports. Later Farm Gate used also usual C-47's, that had lighter weight, than SC-47. At the pic one of SC-47.

This photo in larger size you may find here: https://www.airforcemag.com/PDF/MagazineArchive/Documents/2005/December 2005/1205farmgate.pdf

I would like to built the model of SC-47, but found no good photos of them.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Egi vandor

[Graham Boak]

I suspect that the S for Search and Rescue designation was obsolete, no longer in use at this time.  Though of course any possibility for misdirection may well have been taken.

[Egi vandor]

Also, if we're talking about C-47 in NAM, does anybody know anything about this strange plane?

Photo from C-47 in action.

[TheyJammedKenny!]

58 minutes ago, Egi vandor said:

this strange plane?

It IS strange.  That's for sure.  I doubt very seriously that the nose radome was SIGINT-related, however.  Its location and small size suggests more of a small weather radar for the crew than anything else.  My guess is that if this aircraft had a SIGINT role at all, the antennas were either roof-mounted whip-type, or long-wire, anchored at the front of the fuselage roof and tip of the vertical tail.  Also, I can't imagine this aircraft "trolling" up and down the coast of North Vietnam looking for ELINT targets farther inland--that was reserved for the much more capable EC/RC-121s. 

 

IL-14s: Perhaps you can tell us something about Soviet IL-14s supplying Pathet Lao forces?  How were drop-zones identified?  This seems like a bold move on the USSR's part, particularly given its limited airlift capabilities at the time.  Did it have something to do with China's increased competitive stance in the Communist world?

 

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

S for Search and Rescue designation was obsolete

Not in 1961.  Secretary of Defense MacNamara changed the designations in 1962, so SC would have still been in use then.  Ah, the big conference that followed shortly thereafter "ended" the "problem" of Laos by "guaranteeing" its neutrality.  

[Egi vandor]

18 minutes ago, TheyJammedKenny! said:

It IS strange.  That's for sure.  I doubt very seriously that the nose radome was SIGINT-related, however.  Its location and small size suggests more of a small weather radar for the crew than anything else.  My guess is that if this aircraft had a SIGINT role at all, the antennas were either roof-mounted whip-type, or long-wire, anchored at the front of the fuselage roof and tip of the vertical tail.  Also, I can't imagine this aircraft "trolling" up and down the coast of North Vietnam looking for ELINT targets farther inland--that was reserved for the much more capable EC/RC-121s. 

 

IL-14s: Perhaps you can tell us something about Soviet IL-14s supplying Pathet Lao forces?  How were drop-zones identified?  This seems like a bold move on the USSR's part, particularly given its limited airlift capabilities at the time.  Did it have something to do with China's increased competitive stance in the Communist world?

Early and mid-sixties were time of experiments. Then in SEA flew different exotic platforms, like Hilo Hattie RC-54 and Brave Bull RC-97. Probably, this naval C-47 was one of those experimental planes, used to test new equipment. But i can't find any info about it.

 

According Il-14. For example, this one was caught over Plain of Jars while providing Patet Lao forces. Can't remember source, ACIG maybe.

And here's soviet Li-2, crashed in Laos

 

[TheyJammedKenny!]

I believe the U.S. defense attache officer (USDAO) assigned to Laos filmed the IL-14, but I'm unsure under what circumstances.  What's interesting to me about the LI-2 is that there is a clear effort to conceal the markings, whereas the IL-14 has its commercial registration in full view.  Anyway, it's fascinating to me from a historical perspective, because two ideas that don't go together easily are "Soviets" and "air drops."  I think the USSR's preferred method for delivering contraband supplies was overland, or by sea.  Ours was by air, because as Americans, we do often things in the most expensive way possible!

 

As for the R4D-6Q's presence in 1964, who knows what the Navy was trying to do?  They probably didn't bother to tell the USAF, much less the U.S. Army.  Each of the separate services largely ran its "own" war in Southeast Asia, with limited joint coordination at the strategic level.  So (bad) political decisions made by elected officials were made worse by the military's inability to effectively operate as a collective.  

[TheyJammedKenny!]

If you are still interested and haven't had enough detail, NSA's (mostly) declassified history of the Vietnam War is available here at George Washington University's National Security Archive: https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB260/nsa-4.pdf

 

While there are major deletions for classification reasons, nowhere in this document is there reference to loss of an SC-47 during the Laotian Crisis, at least in the context of SIGINT operations.  It does, however, mention that the USAF deployed cryptologic support to Thailand during the Laotian crisis.

 

Credit for this goes to whomever filed this FOIA request!  The NSA historian pulls no punches either.

 

Alex

[Egi vandor]

3 hours ago, TheyJammedKenny! said:

If you are still interested and haven't had enough detail, NSA's (mostly) declassified history of the Vietnam War is available here at George Washington University's National Security Archive: https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB260/nsa-4.pdf

 

While there are major deletions for classification reasons, nowhere in this document is there reference to loss of an SC-47 during the Laotian Crisis, at least in the context of SIGINT operations.  It does, however, mention that the USAF deployed cryptologic support to Thailand during the Laotian crisis.

 

Credit for this goes to whomever filed this FOIA request!  The NSA historian pulls no punches either.

 

Alex

Thanx, i will read this while i stay home with COVID.

C-47, shot down 23 march 1961, wasn't SC-47, it was ELINT plane from 315 AD on TDY from Osan.

[Killingholme]

Thanks everyone. It's turning out to be a really interesting topic!

 

Will

[Dervish]

44-76330 was indeed an SC-47D, converted from a TC-47D.

[Egi vandor]

57 minutes ago, Dervish said:

44-76330 was indeed an SC-47D, converted from a TC-47D.

According to Joe Baugher's database, 44-76330 was built as TC-47B, but there's no info about it's modification into SC-47.

Also, first four Farm Gate aircraft, modified into SC-47, left Hurlburt  for Bien Hoa on November 5, 1961, and arrived on November 16, so none of them could be shot on March 23.

In Midland's book about Vietnam war losses we may find this info:

During the increasingly tense situation in Laos in 1960 the USAF had detached a small number of aircraft from the 315th AD to monitor the Soviet airlift and locate airfields that were being constructed with Soviet and North Vietnamese assistance. On 23 March 1961 a C-47 took off from Vientiane for a flight to Saigon via the Plain of Jars region where it was intended to gather radio intelligence from several Soviet-built airstrips in the Xieng Khouangville area.

So we may be sure that this plane was not SC-47 but C(TC)-47B with some equipment for SIGINT and maybe ELINT.