Vlad Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 I just got myself a Trumpeter JF-17. Their instructions give colour call outs for half a dozen manufacturers but they all boil down to US Compass Ghost scheme. I'm a bit suspicious of this, there's no reason a Chinese built jet in Pakistani service should be wearing USAF colours. I also say this because it looks different when pictured alongside Pakistani F-16s. But, I'm happy to go with it if there's at least a consensus that this is "close enough". Can anyone help with some more info on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/9646536 It is definitely lighter than the F-16's top colors... Pakistani JF-17s are build and painted in Pakistan... so why no FS colors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted October 5, 2020 Author Share Posted October 5, 2020 Do we know for sure that the Pakistani aircraft factories do use FS colours? And are their F-16s in standard US factory finish or also something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT7567 Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 Pakistan's F-16s were delivered in FS colors, and any repaints/touch-ups since appear to be the same colors so they do have those colors on hand (or local equivalents close enough to meet the FS 595 standards). It's very common for kit & decal manufacturers to quote FS colors as a commonly used standard in the hobby when the "real thing" may not be to that standard but is close enough to be effectively a match. Just because a given country doesn't use FS 595 as such doesn't mean they don't have local color standards that are very close equivalents. Example is the RAF air defence grey scheme, in which Medium Sea Grey and Light Aircraft Grey are effectively the same as FS 36270 and FS 36440 respectively (particularly for modeling purposes). For what it's worth, @CaracalModels in their decal instructions for the Pakistani JF-17 call for FS36375 over FS36495 with a nose cone in FS36320. This tracks well with the photo @exdrakenposted, bearing in mind the F-16 is known to be painted in FS36118 and FS36270. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted October 6, 2020 Author Share Posted October 6, 2020 Thank you! Trumpeter's instructions call for 36320 over 36375. This doesn't look right to me, not so much because it's too dark, but more because the lightest colour on the JF-17 doesn't look blue-ish enough to be 36375. I think I will go with the Caracal interpretation you quoted, it does look right based on pictures. However now I'm very much dreading painting this plane, light colours on large surfaces are such a pain in the back side 😝 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 You can go green if you fear light grey.... https://www.globalvillagespace.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/JF-17-Thunder-BlockIII-Upgrades-that-bring-it-at-the-Top.jpg Or red/ green as in the kit, Or protoype yellow... https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQilZOOMJIFVvPsX2RY0M8KOux8CiuP-qRqzw&usqp=CAU Or simply weather it heavily... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted October 6, 2020 Author Share Posted October 6, 2020 (edited) The jets are pretty new and pretty clean, not a big fan of heavy weathering anyway but in this case it wouldn't even be realistic. Part of me really wants to do that airshow scheme, but I also want to load it full of weapons (will be stealing some from weapon packs and other kits I have). I have a plan to put small magnets in the pylons and the weapons for a changeable loadout. Is there a good acrylic rattle can option for FS 36495? Tamiya or Humbrol maybe? That would make my life a lot easier. EDIT: Tamiya TS-81 Royal Light Grey maybe? Edited October 6, 2020 by Vlad 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 https://www.globalvillagespace.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Pakistan-Set-to-Export-JF-17-Thunder-Fighter-Jets-to-4-Countries.jpg Not very dirty, but also not fully uniform.... The jet furthest away does look different/ darker/ more F-16 like.... what do you think? https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/56236275_2063493363757947_2555875599797190656_o.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_sid=8024bb&_nc_ohc=yurNeKCSLyQAX_p8VWj&_nc_ht=scontent-vie1-1.xx&oh=cd08a1f63f11c11835c8df7cca792e02&oe=5FA1F5D4 By the way these carry some bombs, quite rare! .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted October 6, 2020 Author Share Posted October 6, 2020 I was just going to point out that the one furthest looks different. There is generally some inconsistency in how they appear in pictures. In the one you just posted I can believe they are overall Ghost Grey for example. Do you mean it is rare to see them armed, or just rare for them to carry dumb bombs? I have some Exocets I am planning to turn into C-802s 😁 like this: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 Rare to see photos of in service planes armed I meant The above is a Chinese prototype with mock-up misskes of course. Color determinatiob in photos is always tricky, that is why the one with the F-16 above is quite valuabe for comparisson! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT7567 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 7 hours ago, Vlad said: Is there a good acrylic rattle can option for FS 36495? Tamiya or Humbrol maybe? That would make my life a lot easier. EDIT: Tamiya TS-81 Royal Light Grey maybe? Can't vouch for TS-81, but if "royal light grey" is the same as the British Standard Light Admiralty Grey then it's in the ballpark. My recommendation would actually be Tamiya's light gray primer spray paint - a very close match to FS 36495. I don't think it's acrylic but should be compatible with other Tamiya paints. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted October 7, 2020 Author Share Posted October 7, 2020 7 hours ago, CT7567 said: Can't vouch for TS-81, but if "royal light grey" is the same as the British Standard Light Admiralty Grey then it's in the ballpark. My recommendation would actually be Tamiya's light gray primer spray paint - a very close match to FS 36495. I don't think it's acrylic but should be compatible with other Tamiya paints. Thank you, looks like it could be a good option. I also noticed that Rvell do 371 as an acrylic spray. I have a conversion chart that matches that to FS 36495, would you agree with that match? I have used Revell 371 from the pot in the past, it comes out very light, almost white looking especielly if there are any darker colours on the same model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 more interesting color variations, check the tail! https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/9367640 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted October 7, 2020 Author Share Posted October 7, 2020 (edited) 41 minutes ago, exdraken said: more interesting color variations, check the tail! https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/9367640 That is interesting, looks like a touch-up with whatever they had available. Trumpeter sadly doesn't provide decals for squadron specific emblems e.g. the spider, panther or phoenix. Also, Trumpeter shows the dark patch on the back and upper wing surfaces mirrored on the underside, which I have never seen in a photo of the real thing but it's also hard to tell since this area is in shadow. Edited October 7, 2020 by Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exdraken Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 3 minutes ago, Vlad said: That is interesting, looks like a touch-up with whatever they had available. Trumpeter sadly doesn't provide decals for squadron specific emblems e.g. the spider, panther or phoenix. Also, Trumpeter shows the dark patch on the back and upper wing surfaces mirrored on the underside, which I have never seen in a photo of the real thing but it's also hard to tell since this area is in shadow. Trumpeter released this model before squadron markings were applied/ photos published etc. as far as I remember.. do not trust those instructions therefor if you want to make a current model! decals were available from Caracal, or those: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Frontpenny-Decal-1-48-JF-17-FC-1-Pakistan-Air-Force-PAF-decals-/112484830915 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted October 7, 2020 Author Share Posted October 7, 2020 (edited) 18 minutes ago, exdraken said: decals were available from Caracal, or those: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Frontpenny-Decal-1-48-JF-17-FC-1-Pakistan-Air-Force-PAF-decals-/112484830915 Ah, forgot to mention I have the 1/72 version. I found some decals but with postage from US, not worth it just for a little spider on the tail.😉 Also just to backtrack, the lightest colour on F-16s, FS 36270, is still visibly darker than both FS 36320 and FS 36375. So the JF-17 could be those two colours and look lighter than F-16s in photos. While looking around, I noticed the Bronco kit instructions agree with Trumpeter on this, only Caracal proposing the lighter FS 36495, that now looks too light to me. EDIT: To add to this, I believe the lightest colour, around the nose of the Kuwait F/A-18C near the back of this photo, is FS 36375. The JF-17 at the front looks the same color. Edited October 7, 2020 by Vlad 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 10 hours ago, CT7567 said: Can't vouch for TS-81, but if "royal light grey" is the same as the British Standard Light Admiralty Grey then it's in the ballpark. According to Tamiya's website TS-81 Royal Light Grey is "A light tone of gray perfect for recreating that seen on WWII British vessels." If their swatch is representative then its RGB values are 193 202 201 or in a useful colourspace L80.6 a-3.3 b-0.6 giving a Light Reflectance Value of 58%. It's therefore a very light greenish grey and wholly unsuitable for recreating that seen on WWII British vessels except perhaps in giving a mediocre match for MS4A used in smallish areas on small vessels between late 1941 and early 1943. It looks a bit like the post-1964 Light Admiralty Grey providing one doesn't have a direct comparison or indeed something to juxtapose them. BS381C-697 Light Admiralty Grey is distinctly darker with L value 75 (and Light Reflectance Value of 48%) and much more saturated at a-8.2 and b-0.8. They're in the same quadrant of the colour wheel but most people could clearly tell them apart without need of colour instrumentation. TBH I'm not really sure what TS-81 Royal Light Grey was based on, if anything. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AaCee26 Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 (edited) Hi all, What it is worth Frontpenny Decals gives only Gunze Mr Color mixing ratios for darker grey 2*316 + 1*307 and lighter 4*316 + 1*308. Cheers, AaCee Edited October 10, 2020 by AaCee26 Typo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted October 8, 2020 Author Share Posted October 8, 2020 (edited) Well, Gunze 307 and 308 are FS FS 36320 and FS 36375. The varying amounts of additional white are confusing though. Edited October 8, 2020 by Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT7567 Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 On 10/7/2020 at 5:27 AM, Vlad said: Thank you, looks like it could be a good option. I also noticed that Rvell do 371 as an acrylic spray. I have a conversion chart that matches that to FS 36495, would you agree with that match? I have used Revell 371 from the pot in the past, it comes out very light, almost white looking especielly if there are any darker colours on the same model. Revell paints aren't widely available in the U.S. so I can't comment on how any of their colors match FS 595 standards. With respect to appearance, keep in mind the same light gray can appear much darker or lighter based on lighting and evenn more importantly the adjacent color(s). For example, it's a common misconception that the undersides of USAF Vietnam-era Phantoms in the Southeast Asia camouflage were white, but in fact they were actually FS36622 gray. This is one of the lighter grays in FS595, but compared to "pure white" it is very clearly a gray. Obviously anything "in the ballpark" is fine for one model, but if you plan to have more than one model displayed together then it will quickly become obvious if you've used a color that is darker or lighter than what should be the same color (or lighter/darker) on another type. That's why photos like the one @Vlad posted are so helpful to nail down how colors from different (or in some cases undocumented) standards compare. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT7567 Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 On 10/7/2020 at 7:19 AM, Vlad said: Ah, forgot to mention I have the 1/72 version. I found some decals but with postage from US, not worth it just for a little spider on the tail.😉 Also just to backtrack, the lightest colour on F-16s, FS 36270, is still visibly darker than both FS 36320 and FS 36375. So the JF-17 could be those two colours and look lighter than F-16s in photos. While looking around, I noticed the Bronco kit instructions agree with Trumpeter on this, only Caracal proposing the lighter FS 36495, that now looks too light to me. EDIT: To add to this, I believe the lightest colour, around the nose of the Kuwait F/A-18C near the back of this photo, is FS 36375. The JF-17 at the front looks the same color. That in-flight image is a great reference, but something important to keep in mind is the differences in angle of lighting and how it falls on each aircraft. The sun is obviously high and at or near directly ahead of the aircraft (top right of photo) so the top nose section of the KF-18 is getting the most light, while only a small portion of the JF-17 that's visible would have equivalent illumination in this photo. The FS36375 area immediately above the Hornet LERX is closest to the predominant lighting on the side of the JF-17 fuselage. Comparing the two directly, they are close but the JF-17 color is (IMHO) lighter and "cooler" (more blueish), both of which are consistent with 36495. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted October 16, 2020 Author Share Posted October 16, 2020 (edited) I did a quick test with what I had on hand (apologies for the air bubbles in the paint, just slapped it on, but you get the idea with the colour). Closest I had to FS 36495 was Revell R371. The other four colours are Light and Dark Compass Ghost Greys from different manufacturers, Humbrol and Xtracrylix. H127 & XA1136 are FS 36375 H128 & XA1135 are FS 36320 I see now that the compass greys look too dark as a pair. But R371 looks a bit too light, with too much contrast to my FS 36375 options. Thoughts? Edited October 16, 2020 by Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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