Jump to content

Pocher k72 Rolls Sedanca 1/8 rebuild - The Black Cat


Terryz
 Share

Recommended Posts

Thanks guys.... all in good fun. And yes, don't worry I did not take any offense or slight. I too, am perhaps a tad frustrated it wasn't a better start. And I eye this thing often trying to decide where to go next (and not to go). I too shall be hopeful. And a little humor is good for the mind..... mine anyway.

 

Once they glued that floor on solid and tied it to the bottom of the interior side beige trim panels that sort of 'did it'. Besides.... I've got a kitchen floor to get in, a 69 Triumph cycle seat I need to get back together once the skin comes back from the upholsterer. And I've got a 73 MGB GT that I need to refresh my amateur welding skills on. It needs work too. Keep at me.... all is good!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Terryz said:

Thanks guys.... all in good fun. And yes, don't worry I did not take any offense or slight. I too, am perhaps a tad frustrated it wasn't a better start. And I eye this thing often trying to decide where to go next (and not to go). I too shall be hopeful. And a little humor is good for the mind..... mine anyway.

 

Once they glued that floor on solid and tied it to the bottom of the interior side beige trim panels that sort of 'did it'. Besides.... I've got a kitchen floor to get in, a 69 Triumph cycle seat I need to get back together once the skin comes back from the upholsterer. And I've got a 73 MGB GT that I need to refresh my amateur welding skills on. It needs work too. Keep at me.... all is good!

Good to know.....As we get older we get more dedicated hey?---We should never stop learning otherwise we are done for.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I love it Ian..... anytime my friend. I like to stay busy with 'many irons in the fire'. Sometimes too many. On this front, all my 1.5 mm and 2 mm stuff came in yesterday. So between that and the 0-80 stuff I already have I hope that will help with some mends on this poor beast...... I want to get my solid 'tub' (coach) on the frame better. And if I get too frustrated..... maybe I'll convert it into a black '32 Ford 3-window coupe ala ZZTop. Cheers!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Hello all possibly still following. Yes I used the time and silence to ponder and consider. As one might suspect with this one I had become disillusioned. What better time to report I hope some promising news on my 'Little Shop of Horrors' than after Halloween.

 

Between raking leaves, house work, buying another used car (1:1 scale), and eyeing this Pocher 1/8 I have made progress. I think. As I noted earlier I plan to attach the coach to the frame at four points. Two in front near the existing mounts (which I will modify) and down low rear side bottom body panels. I believe my attempt to use PS blocks to span the width to the body and give a mount will work. Those I am considering strapping to them frame with brass straps. I will also likely attach PS blocks to the inside of the body panels at the opposing point to help narrow the distance. But I will leave room for shims so the body will be adjustable and can be removed. 

 

Earlier advice was correct. This coach needs to sit slightly down and back from original. I previously thought about 1/4" towards the rear. Work tonight to align all points suggests more like ~1/8" backwards. I also shaved about an 1/8" from the front of the floor lips. That allows the coach to slide forward into the firewall. (Recall, this floor is ON this one. Solid.) I will now do further alignment of the hood and firewall. It also appears I need to lower the firewall some as I believe others have told me. And use of either 1.5 mm, 2 mm, and 0-80 screws, rods, and nuts will help. I will persevere. I also realized this evening that it seems either from bad build or frustration (not mine yet), the prior builder clipped the top edge vertical front body panel lip on the driver's side of the coach. Now I know why I could see the silver firewall. I will use some PS sheet to fill that spot.

 

Thanks again for the thoughts and encouragement. In spite of a perhaps discouraging build/rebuild. I've not given up yet. Not entirely anyway.

 

Best to all.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ahh good that you found the motivation to continue and came up with solutions for the many challenges you have with this one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Half the problem here is solving what has gone wronge which you have. Now its time to fix it up....Dont worry about us lot we are awaiting progress with baited breath but we can wait.I had people waiting 10 years for an update on mine and still they are hanging on even though I sold it..We are getting emails when you post so take your time..Good luck..Ian.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a little update on my continued work to unhack the hacked project. Couple of positive reports on the front body edge, firewall, and bonnet covers and sides fitting, and frame mounts. I wanted to hurry to get a few things done since I need to vacate the kitchen a couple of days. The Covid-19 delayed floor install of marmoleum was held off for about two months. It starts Monday morning. - Back to the build - I used a cut piece/sheet of the PS I fashioned from an old floppy disc case to repair the driver's side front body edge. I am fairly pleased with it. (I mean for comparison - look at that nicely ripped edge I started with !) Heavily filed and sanded and shaped my PS sheet and a touch of CA with a toothpick (thank goodness for capillary action) and then filing and sanding to finish. Couple of pictures before and after on it:

spacer.png

spacer.pngspacer.pngspacer.png

 

The continued refinements and fitting also requires additional work to the bonnet and its covers as well as the firewall and its fit within the coach. Couple of things needed are shown here: a notch in the lip of the front body lower lip recess - to allow some movement and positioning for when it nears assembly - and chamfers to the rear of the bonnet/engine cover vertical edges:

spacer.pngspacer.png


I also heavily chamfered the rearmost edges of the firewall top and vertical / side edges. And speaking of the firewall, lever shocks, and firewall attaching blocks - if anyone ever decides to remake the Rolls Sedanca and similar kits - I think they need to reformulate/change the mix and filler on that stuff. From my observation it is quite brittle and not well suited for much. It is very unstable and loads with stress cracks over time and anywhere it was drilled, shaped, formed, or molded. I stabilized the stress cracks on the firewall with CA and it heavily penetrates into it; almost will haze and 'smoke' it if you use to much - so go sparingly. (Ok paint it one says...... that is not in my repertoire for this one, not yet.) That polymer mix I believe is highly filled with some pigment or perhaps metallic material. That same brittle polymer mix also gave way on the firewall attaching blocks as they were being fitted. So I stabilized the rear of each with black PS sheet and will use 2 mm screws and nuts to hold it. This also required considerable fitting and filing of the firewall lower edges, slots for the firewall lower horizontal edges in the 'concrete' blocks and the vertical frame mounts for the blocks. But it appears it will work:

spacer.png

 

Lastly I am working on my rig for the rig - i.e. how to attach the coach body to the frame. For whatever reason, likely fear, I am reluctant to want to drill heavily or modify this frame/chassis rails. At least not now. While stable, straight, and not appearing compromised or flexed, portions do have the slight surface oxidation and slight greying or haze in some places. (Nothing major, but with circa 40 year old polystyrene ..... well.... back to that fear component - and if it does continue to crystallize or harden, one bad cut or drill point and..... likely 3 more weeks of unplanned/unforeseen work.) I am convinced that the black filled polymer mix of the frame is not the same as the body and wing/fender panels which is more pliable or soft but not as strong. So here is what I am planning to try: PS blocks strapped to the frame, through which I will screw four mounts from the lower portions of the coach. Here are the pictures, the front needs a lot of work still. That included sawing/shaving the front screw mount with a 'gar fish' shaped X-Acto long thin saw blade. The last picture shows the rear block that I made for one of the two sides. 2 mm nuts are drilled into the back of the blocks and locked in with CA. (Those screws are for demo only; much shorter or cut screws will be used.) And quite the monkey puzzle to attach without drilling or cutting the frame. (The lower brass strip slides over the bottom frame lip and outward. The block slides into it from above. The top brass strip slides over the top frame lip - forward of the block and then slides rearward over the shaved edge of the block to clear it.) Once the body is finally position I will drill through the lower points into the four blocks. Where that occurs I will then drill from the rear of the frame blocks and place 2 mm nuts CA-ed into the rear of the block to receive the body screw. I know.... complicated, o well, it looks like an idea and I never do anything simple. I mean I am the idiot that bought this 'baby' from the impound lot at a sheriff's sale. (But alas - I chuckle to myself anyway....) Now off to finish stripping the kitchen and await the floor. Enjoy the fall weather and remaining leaves and colors til we next touch base. And thanks for the encouragement. (ps. I just noticed in the first picture below - you can see the brass clips of the left side rail as they fit over the other frame rails. I had not noticed that til just now.)

spacer.pngspacer.png

spacer.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Terryz said:

spacer.png

 

I'm enjoying this thread, as I enjoy all these Pocher classics, so thanks for the updates.

 

My reason for quoting this picture is something that has bugged me for a while about the Pocher Rolls-Royce Phantom is the arrangement for hanging the rear leaf springs.  It looks like there are swinging shackles at both ends of the spring.  I don't know if you or @Codger can satisfy my curiosity about whether the full-size Phantom employed such an arrangement?  It looks to me like the axle would wobble all over the place if this were a real car.

 

Anyway, that's no criticism of your work, you're doing something I'd love to do if only I had the space.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, johnlambert said:

  I don't know if you or @Codger can satisfy my curiosity about whether the full-size Phantom employed such an arrangement?  It looks to me like the axle would wobble all over the place if this were a real car.

 

Yes Phantoms did John but you don't have all the info to see that. There are hydraulic cylinder shock absorbers forward of the axle inside the frame rails. They connect to the axle with links and levers and there are trailing rods and brake actuator rods running from crossmembers to the axle, preventing fore/aft movement.

IMG-4083.jpg

11-pasted-Graphic.png

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Terryz said:

 I used a cut piece/sheet of the PS I fashioned from an old floppy disc case to repair the driver's side front body eI also heavily chamfered the rearmost edges of the firewall top and vertical / side edges. And speaking of the firewall, lever shocks, and firewall attaching blocks - if anyone ever decides to remake the Rolls Sedanca and similar kits - I think they need to reformulate/change the mix and filler on that stuff. From my observation it is quite brittle and not well suited for much. It is very unstable and loads with stress cracks over time and anywhere it was drilled, shaped, formed, or molded. I stabilized the stress cracks on the firewall with CA and it heavily penetrates into it; almost will haze and 'smoke' it if you use to much - so go sparingly. (Ok paint it one says...... that is not in my repertoire for this one, not yet.) That polymer mix I believe is highly filled with some pigment or perhaps metallic material. That same brittle polymer mix also gave way on the firewall attaching blocks as they were being fitted. So I stabilized the rear of each with black PS sheet and will use 2 mm screws and nuts to hold it. This also required considerable fitting and filing of the firewall lower edges, slots for the firewall lower horizontal edges in the 'concrete' blocks and the vertical frame mounts for the blocks. But it appears it will work:

Terry, I'll be direct; I think your profession of chemical engineer may be complicating you build immensely and the advice to others may mislead them. I sense you're over-thinking things.

My original kit being the first design by Pocher of the Phantom (there were 3) is probably older than yours. Yes it suffered from four decades of age, brittleness (mostly in the brown interior door and dash panels) warps and poor clearances.

But it is just old Italian plastic. Not filled with metallic particles or any strange combinations of molecules to make it necessary to use unorthodox assembly materials or adhesives. It responds to heat and conventional adhesives such as CA, regular model cement, epoxy and nuts/bolts as any other styrene does, new or old. Indeed styrene sheet  and, shapes, sourced from Evergreen or Plastruct was used everywhere in the extensive modifications I made and visible in the 950 photos I provide in my thread. The filler of choice is Bondo, an automotive 2 part catalyzed filler which bonds perfectly and sands to a professional surface. Soaking fractured parts in CA will not strengthen them - fabricate new parts from new styrene.

Making new attachments from ordinary styrene is quite easy without need for brass attachment straps. I do not advise using masking tape to hold parts for final securing - you never get accuracy that way. It's fine for mock-ups but no more. Which is why I showed you how to make truss rods to hold dimensions and alignments while final attachment takes place. I have presented all this earlier.

If you enjoy problem-solving to your own ideas I certainly respect that but I presented these methods to hopefully ease your rescue of this previously damaged project.

Anything of help to you is right in my thread.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello all, and thank you for the insight. And perhaps a few points of clarification are worth mentioning:

 

Any and all are welcome to ignore or modify or simply disregard any technique I have used or insight I contribute. This is only my experience and attempts to fix this mess. (On the other hand...... if anyone would like to acquire this puddle as it sits..... feel free to PM me .... I would be happy to consider any offer. And it will save me quite a bit of time. I already have many other projects waiting.)

 

Yes, perhaps some is overkill. Or unusual, but unfortunately many of the pieces are broken and brittle. So I am having to adapt. And I am trying to 'build' or stabilize it as best as I am able. I am using sparing bits of CA to fill a gap or secure a piece; e.g. the PS sliver used to refashion the clipped front edge of the coach.

 

What I did find is that whatever was done with the gray hard brittle shocks and firewall that polymer in my opinion differs from the others. And I envision some colorant (what I don't know) was used to impart the gray color which has some iridescence or shimmering sheen it seems, at least in certain lights. The firewall on this prior build had stress cracks throughout it. To the point I bet if I lightly twisted it in my hands I would easily have four or five pieces. Simply buying another of the same vintage did not seem worthwhile. So I tried to salvage it. And the CA glue tends to absorb differently with that polymer mix than the others - in my opinion. At least that is my observation. I also noticed when drilling it, that it feels different, harder - contrasted with the black PS components in this model. And the shocks and firewall blocks were prone to break easier or crack, for whatever reason. Even if simply drilled. The firewall block broke at one drilled hole. Yes, that is my chemistry observations perhaps. I am an organic chemist, not an engineer. (Obviously my poor engineering skills show...... i.e. my choice for body mounts :)) And Codger I appreciate the insight; the blue painters tape is a partial hold for some pieces while I work around this thing. And one is marking a centerline on the upper cowl. Further adjustment and fitting will be needed before I secure it. I am not relying on them for a hold or set. I have one door that swings like a bar room entrance and the other wouldn't budge with a chain.

 

One other thing I had forgotten which only applies to this "tub". So it is not recommended unless required for your build. I had to cut another 1/8" from the front of the floor lip. So now it is closer to 1/4" that was shaved so that it will fit within the firewall. Since the floor is on solid, this built kit needs that to allow the body to slide forward enough to meet with favorable lines for the rear bonnet edges - when the combination is set on the frame with the firewall within its blocks where some adjustment is allowed. But not enough for this one, taking into account the radiator which I have custom to leave where it is. It was removed once to set the front shocks on the frame earlier. And I don't intend to remove it or adjust it again. 

Edited by Terryz
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Hello Ian..... thank you for checking in. Great to hear from you. Yes all is well here. And no I have not binned it. Not yet. Still tempting though :) ... but kidding aside two things really. First I surrendered the kitchen and build workplace for the kitchen/dining room floor replacement. That tear out and install took about a week and is just complete. It turned out perfect and I absolutely love it. That only took 25 years to do. And I've not returned to this. No updates on the Rolls' floor unfortunately.

 

Second, in all honesty too, it was my impression that perhaps some of my input, approaches, or techniques and also the critiques of them were not particularly welcome or helpful. So I have somewhat retreated. Life is far too short for an unneeded or unnecessary 'fight' or what seemed to me as judgmental criticism of my apparent failings, flaws, or 'mistakes'. It is just not worth frustrating others or myself.

 

But please do keep in touch. I've also go a k73 Alfa Spyder that I may get to some day. I am more optimistic on that one. But maybe I am again simply naive.

 

And best wishes to you and others for the upcoming Christmas and new year holidays.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/4/2020 at 6:32 PM, Terryz said:

Hello Ian..... thank you for checking in. Great to hear from you. Yes all is well here. And no I have not binned it. Not yet. Still tempting though :) ... but kidding aside two things really. First I surrendered the kitchen and build workplace for the kitchen/dining room floor replacement. That tear out and install took about a week and is just complete. It turned out perfect and I absolutely love it. That only took 25 years to do. And I've not returned to this. No updates on the Rolls' floor unfortunately.

 

Second, in all honesty too, it was my impression that perhaps some of my input, approaches, or techniques and also the critiques of them were not particularly welcome or helpful. So I have somewhat retreated. Life is far too short for an unneeded or unnecessary 'fight' or what seemed to me as judgmental criticism of my apparent failings, flaws, or 'mistakes'. It is just not worth frustrating others or myself.

 

But please do keep in touch. I've also go a k73 Alfa Spyder that I may get to some day. I am more optimistic on that one. But maybe I am again simply naive.

 

And best wishes to you and others for the upcoming Christmas and new year holidays.

Hi Terry, Been away for a bit. Be assured that I would welcome all updates on your build. I’m sure there are many other on BM who agree to that. Pls continu with your updates when you commence your build. There is so much to learn from this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 5 months later...
Posted (edited)

Hello all brief update if so interested. Another item found along the road side. Pocher 1/8 k70 1907 Fiat F-2. Trailered it home and since resurrected. One advantage of a bought item, poorly packed by the shipper (not me), damaged in shipment - you can request monies back and build it as needed. Patterned the wheel color accents and the dash and floor aging off another k70 build I saw some months back. Credits really go to that unnamed builder - wish I knew who that was but I do not. Last picture shows portions of the opened spoils received early this spring. Yes I did salvage and rebuild the front suspension cross member and strengthened and stabilized it. I also had to add a plate to the outer frame surround holding the steering drive gear box; the narrow bottom red frame circular stirrup was compromised. That is also the cloth covered copper wire for the plug wires; tricky stuff to work with but used some ingenuity to work with it. And for those that know me, yes I also salvaged that broken steering wheel. It is rebuilt from the 4 or 5 pieces in the last picture. I also really like the case - very nice quality and readily shipped. Finishing up also a 1/8 k73 Alfa Romeo Gran Sport Spyder but a little ways to go. Have a case for it too when done.

Hope all is well. Best regards and wishes for the summer to those interested. Time for outside work. Terry.

ps Ian - no I have not binned the k72..... yet.....

 

 

spacer.png

 

spacer.png

 

spacer.png

 

spacer.png

 

spacer.png

Edited by Terryz
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ahaa.Wondered what happened to you..Not been on since so have had to redo the password milarky...Very nice work there and dont be so long away in future..Some of us have been waiting for an update I am sure.......

 

Keep smiling keep safe and stay alive thats the main thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...