Jump to content

Pocher k72 Rolls Sedanca 1/8 rebuild - The Black Cat


Terryz
 Share

Recommended Posts

Well i figured it out.......... Thanks for the support and ideas, input and inspiration. Went with Imgur. And did not add any extensions. Sorry I am not gone yet.....

 

Here is my stray cat. Beautiful in all her glory. I've not decided yet whether it is feral or not, time will tell. Yes pretty much as was received. But well packed. I got right into it and forgot to get a bunch of good pictures early. But never the less here it is. Two pics of what it started as.

spacer.png

spacer.png

 

I was fortunate and unfortunate in two respects. Well packed so arrived soundly. Yet when the prior builder had either run out of patience or lost screws, small items etc.... yep... here comes cyanoacrylate (CA) glue. And not always just a little. But lucky devil I am, they did not clean anything or sand it, so was for naught. And pretty much flaked right off. Whew.

 

First order was to repair the wings. Front left fender front tab rear race was gone entirely. So I cut and shaved my old 3-1/2" floppy disk cases. Couple pics shown below. Then well sanded all mating surfaces, and yes CA with a round toothpick. Progress good so far. And I added gussets to the other tabs and strengthened them too.

4Iiycq4.jpg

l076oJG.jpg

 

I'll also post on the rear suspension shackle/plate repair and horn bell build. One of the horn dome was missing. But hard to believe, lucky again..... that horn trumpet somehow stayed in that channel all those years. Because when I picked up something and moved it the trumpet fell to the floor.

 

For now I will attest that some of the work on these things is four letter word territory.

 

Thanks again.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello,

 

I realized with some good input I should have moved or started my rebuild on a new tab. Apologies for outstaying my hello / greetings on the new members page. Let me see if I can get this moved and going.

 

kind regards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello all, for those still reading..... as I envisioned this did turn out to be a feral stray cat. I think I will be making a hard left turn to stay off the wall. More on that in a second, but first a couple small accomplishment victories. No, not teasers..... just want to say something positive first. Most importantly I've tightened up all the nuts, screws, etc. so that this thing doesn't drop nuts or bolts every time I get near it or touch it. I figure with 40+ year old plastic and metal components I need to take it slow.

 

I've gotten the fender attaching tabs nicely braced and complete. I used cut and shaped slivers of 3-1/2" floppy disc hard cases of polystyrene (PS) or ABS black plastic. Then well sanded mating surfaces and cyanoacrylate (CA) glue. A final picture of them is below. I also fashioned a missing horn dome/cap. I mentioned earlier that magically the passenger side horn trumpet had stayed in the horn mount all these years with no cap or bell/dome. Rather than buy every bag of bits known I made one. Again using PS/ABS cut sheets, then screwed to the end of a dowel, in the drill, and mini lathe with files and sandpaper. I then shaved it to the correct height using a Sandvik Razor dovetail saw. Painted and it is not that bad see below, I agree not 100 points. (But when you read the bad news below maybe you will agree with my latest opinion.... it is good enough. For now.)

 

I also fashioned a missing rear shackle clip/cover (whatever it is called) part # 72008-04-K from 0.025 stainless. I am happy with it as pictures below show. And best yet the rear suspension no longer flops around like a fish in water. Also glad to report, that after eyeballing this sagging and misaligned suspension for quite a while, I was able to loosen all read suspension nuts/attachments and rotate the entire rear end assembly forward ~40 degrees on its shackle pivots. Now the driveshaft stays in place. But still not sure on where I am with rear wheel alignment in the rear fenders. That shall have to wait. I also fashioned a rear clip to hold the broken rear muffler tip hanger from 0.025 stainless. Better than using a coat hanger, and now the muffler will quit dragging as I fly down the freeway in my new ride.

 

Now for the gem and (bad pun - the rabies bite)....... the body center tub assembly. Well, this poor thing did not entirely escape CA as I first suggested, nor did it miss a hidden CA glacier from the prior builder. Actually two CA glaciers. I shall not refer to the builder as a modeler. Sure enough....... when the center body was being assembled (upside down) the lower body to floor didn't fit and probably didn't fit on the frame either, and when all the needed screws were lost, well..... have I got a solution for you - lots of CA. Yep. Lots. Gallons of it. 'But wait there's more'. So much it appears that it seeped down well below the floor and has captured the deepest recesses of both the lower body side panel mounts that sit on the floor and the lower edges of the beige body inner side panels that grip the upper edge of the inner floor above the step plate into the cab. So I have not had much luck yet liberating the tub from the floor. I was so close. So unless I simply step on it (just kidding) this will be quite a feat. (I had hoped to rescue this better, use dental floss garrotes and tourniquets to get the cowl sitting correctly, screwed together properly, and align and straighten the center tub better on the floor. And to better narrow it so it will fit on the frame and mate with the bonnet covers better.) Sorry, no pictures of this treat yet..... too disgusted. What I might do is get a new floor section and Dremel cut the old one and try to free it - but I fear if I do I will then damage all and simply need all new center panels. This one is not worth that. Maybe the other option will be to Dremel cut small slots or slivers out of the floor and narrow it. You know, chopped and channeled. Then I'll put a Ford 428 in it while I am at it :) 

 

I am also now working on aligning the firewall and blocks. Ok, I agree..... why I ask myself? Well I don't give up that easily. And whomever factory drilled the screw receptacles on the gray concrete blocks that hold the firewall - well they were out to lunch and missed it by a country mile. See below. I have redrilled those a bit better. As it was, the firewall would not even slide into the slots. (It was simply 'dumped' inside on top of the frame before the solid body was placed on it. Seriously..... but at least I got the firewall to use.)

 

Well enjoy the pictures and I am going to take a break for a bit. Before I get to a point of no return. And then the next thing I will be offering tons of nice vintage parts from a bodged k72 build and hoped rebuild - right here on this forum. (Just kidding I don't typically give up that easily.)

 

I am also going to plow into Paul Koo's DVD on this k72 and learn some other great tricks.

 

And thanks to the words of encouragement and suggestions. Much appreciated! Enjoy and please don't laugh too loudly or hard..... I will probably hear you.

 

Take care til next time.

spacer.png

spacer.png

6L91DLw.jpg

spacer.png

TkWwT6e.jpg

cKtWW4C.jpg

spacer.pngspacer.png

spacer.png

k5heGcU.jpg

Edited by Terryz
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some thoughts for you before you invest a ton of salvage work and expense. This thing is more than just a 'rough' assembly or derelict kit. It looks like it suffered a malicious attempt to destroy it.

Examine all parts to determine if it's worth trying to fix the major and basic problems. For instance, the plated parts (wheels, lights, grille) are very corroded and even machine polishing may not bring them to a 'Rolls standard'. Is the outer body able to take a good priming and finishing or too much glue damage?

Is the frame itself sound and not warped? ModelMotorcars can supply new and beautiful replacements (for the polished and suspension  parts) but they add greatly to cost. Ponder if it's worth the investment to you.

If you want to press on there are possibilities for help. Ebay sellers frequently offer parted-out Pocher parts and you may be able to get a new floor / interior / body panels. Depends on how much you want to add to the overall expense. Plated parts - not so much; they are seldom seen.

But scratchbuilding is a viable possibility if you're talented and motivated. A new floor is relatively easy from sheet styrene for example.

In short, try to size up what it can look like when complete and if that's the presentation you want.

Almost forgot; it is vital to check early on for the symmetry of the body panels. Curvatures and shapes of all the fenders and body halves probably don't match each other due to warping and/or poor Pocher mold making. Determine if you can rectify that first. I show this near the end of my thread.

This applies to all Pocher classic kits. I learned this from experience...

Edited by Codger
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Codger, thanks and I fully concur. Appreciate the wisdom. This one won't be a gem or top shelf. Not close. Not even diamond in the rough. But it gives me something to waste some time on this winter. And that way I am not making a mess of something else and ruining a fresh kit. Yes this one suffered badly.... but just so y'all know (and I know you do), this was not due to me. At least not yet. I simply made the mistake of acquiring it.... (hehe). As to the upsides - frame is straight as an arrow. Wheels and tires (all 5) are great. The body visible outer surfaces are perfect. (How the ah hummmm former builder kept CA off of it while they dipped all else in CA I shall never figure out.) But yes it would take paint nicely. I'm on watch for a spare floor.

 

I think I will just keep taking careful measure. And will - if I get the courage - probably take a fine saw or Dremel to both outer sides of the floor on the dropped edges that surround the frame and maybe take ~1/8" of each side. Not sure yet. And need to measure well. And you are right, the nickel and chrome is rough. I'll try some Mother's Al and Mag polish and see if I can do anything. It helped with the radiator grille surround (at least I keep telling myself that). Otherwise, this is just a Rolls that sat out in someone's front yard and sun and snow for 30 years. Instead of that heated, carpeted, air conditioned sealed garage I always wanted. And if I ever do paint it Goldfinger light yellow on the lower sides - this poor gal doesn't deserve a nice set of white wall tires - unless they fall into my lap.

 

I hear ya too - I've got lemons, so I need to make lemonade. Or as a dear colleague used to say ..... well typical day in the office, need to make chicken salad out of chicken s.........t. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ah you are planning to spend the whole winter on this one. I guess you will need that. Hope it will work for you. 
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks and yes I fear I will. Or at least what is left of the sanity I have and that it will consume to do this. Thank god time is free. I did finally get the courage and mocked it up just now as bad as it seemed. Ok, I know.... not Pocher museum quality, not worthy of this forum appearance....., and not winning any awards unless it is the Minnie Pearl, but with the placed firewall and bonnet cover and tub laying there actually not as bad as I feared. Course this is just sitting there. And I still need to join the engine covers at the hinge. Still I have a long long ways to go - and try to get the tub centered along the wheel and axle lines. Baby steps..... 

Thanks!

And I think I will just paint the entire firewall and engine all flat black - then none of us will know..... (Just kidding...) Besides, this one will have a 20 foot paint job, or I guess I should say a 3 foot paint job.

 

ps. yes the horrid kitchen floor is waiting for a renew. Covid-19 has slowed arrival of one of the 2 styles 10x10" Forbo Marmoleum flooring that is on order. That Armstrong 1986 solarian has to go! Enjoy it while it lasts.

spacer.png

spacer.pngspacer.png

spacer.png

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the coach is beyond salvage, you can always create a highly detailed chassis.

Btw, the carton on the floor is assumably to catch all spills during this restoration. Right?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Poul.... yes, that is true. Greetings to you over there! I still hope I can salvage it to a nice visual. Somehow. And as one could expect, the prior 'builder' didn't do a full job in other areas. So even as a naked or bare chassis it falls a little short. Yes the carton lid will catch things. Besides, it drips oil :) And I hate to get a good setup before the kitchen floor is done not til the end of this month. It actually is easier sizing it up at a low level too. The cardboard also makes it easy to see anything that does fall - against that floor. And since it is on the floor..... what drops doesn't fall far or bounce. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Y'all got me to thinking so I went after that poor chrome on this thing last night. Not too bad for progress. But please put away the magnifying glasses and binoculars. This car is not going to win Pebble Beach or St. Simon's/Jekyl Island.... but it did not turn out too bad. Here is a pic with the drivers (right) side lights polished lightly. And a second pic with both sides done. Used Mothers Aluminum and Mag polish paste. Great stuff. It takes very little of it. I use a Q-tip. And I figure that what is left of the chrome/nickel is so thin so I went carefully. If it is lacquer or clear coated metal I doubt it will work. If your Q-tip/cloth blackens its working. The stuff is amazing. And Codger was right.... sure enough, there were three dribbles of CA on the right front fender, buried near the headlight. I used a small Swedish flat file carefully, 1200 and 2000 grit, 3M fine cut, and Mother's cleaner carnauba wax and it turned out pretty nice. I have a nice fresh horn dome and some other bits for the chassis coming from Paul Koo in the next few days. I'll post pics of the finished fender then. Still needs a bit more polishing. Take care all.spacer.png

spacer.png

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That’s a smart looking save, Terry. Are you going to gloss the nickel plated parts? On my Alfa I never leave any factory plated parts untreated, because they will dull over time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Poul, thanks. It didn't do that bad. Yes I might clear them eventually. And if I do I will need to keep that lacquer away from the PS shells..... MEK (methyl ethyl ketone) and acetone love that stuff.

 

I still haven't stepped on the center body or decided to make a hearse flower car out of it yet. So there is still hope. I think. I'm making some PS/ABS sheet blocks. Reasoning is that when I sized up/set the coach/tub on the frame, I believe I will need to position the coach slightly forward of it's actual mount. And also quite possible I will need to slightly tip it one way or the other front to back and up and down forward or aft. I am thinking I will probably screw wider block bases to the forward body mount screw and the rear compartment rearward mount. Then I can position it as needed. And I will place the mounting screws wherever they fall. For now I am going to stabilize the cowl and center forward body panels. Only driver's side cowl was attached. The left front was left loose...... and yep, CA was used as the body work and fine lead filling for the seam.

 

ps. Thanks to who (I forget who....) that nicely reminded me this Rolls had a coach section. Heck, how many times in high school I looked at the inner door sill of my 64 Chevelle Malibu SS...... "Body by Fisher".... 

 

Best to all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, Terryz said:

I think. I'm making some PS/ABS sheet blocks. Reasoning is that when I sized up/set the coach/tub on the frame, I believe I will need to position the coach slightly forward of it's actual mount. And also quite possible I will need to slightly tip it one way or the other front to back and up and down forward or aft. I am thinking I will probably screw wider block bases to the forward body mount screw and the rear compartment rearward mount.

Only driver's side cowl was attached. The left front was left loose...... and yep, CA was used as the body work and fine lead filling for the seam.

I spoke at length in my thread how the body (with rear fenders attached)  position should be determined by centering the rear wheels in the fender opening. Almost always, it needs to move rearward not forward. Of course, we don't know what horrors the first owner committed on the car's basic fits and proportions.

The basics are most important first. Get the chassis square and level to a flat base and build upward from there. Measure carefully the wheelbase on both sides to make sure it's even before trying to get body positioned. Screwing the forward body section to the frame as Pocher directs is never a good idea. Repeated assembly/disassembly will make junk of the frame hole. Make new forward mounts from brass and when the final body position is determined, drill through both body and brass frame mount and bolt together with 0-80 hex. This will make it easily removable. Making a re-inforced rear mount to bolt (not screw) the body to is also preferable. Using styrene shapes (square rods and sheets) from Plastruct or Evergreen is excellent building material. I show how to make 2mm studs to make things safely and easily repeatedly removable.

The cowl attachment in stock form is terrible and probably accounts for un-even twist of the body shell. First - work on a flat level surface. Remove it and make a truss brace to hold the sides evenly (I show how) then tack the cowl in position with CA and when all aligned, epoxy over the joint full length. Just don't make it a gloppy mess because there's very little clearance when placed over the firewall.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have a positive update on a few fronts. The horn and the coach (or tub).

I got the horn dome/bell from Paul Koo and set to place it. Well, now I see why it was not finished properly before. True to fitment, the horn trumpet sits too proud in the channel for the dome to place properly. So I shaved/flatspotted the top of the rear horn mounts with a file. And then while placing and tightening the screw rotated the trumpet slightly so that it did not have too much droop. Couple pics below. I know it is much nicer chrome..... but it is better than the pit helmet I made for it.

spacer.png

spacer.png

I also set to work on the coach build. Those reading may remember that the builder for this one had used 40' pile drivers and cement (ok cyanoacrylate/CA - but two glaciers of it......) - as they gave up late in the build. I'm too embarrassed to show pics of that unshown beauty for now. And I can't free the floor without likely serious damage to the side panels, floor, and inner door panels. So I have adjusted. If I can resurrect it fairly I will eventually show the original mess.

I set to proper positioning of the cowl; at least as the 'original fit' and panels will allow. Only driver's side was attached with Pocher screws and it was a poor fit.. The passenger side drooped free - held by scotch tape. Until now. I filed the vertical screw slot recesses closer to the outer body panel to help with positioning so that it would narrow both sides. Also squared and roughened with file all of the hidden mating surfaces.

 

Before shot of the driver's side

spacer.png

 

after

 

spacer.png

I made a 'cheater' screwdriver from a coat hanger. It is about 8" long and works like a charm. And it is better than having to drill access holes everywhere. I also mocked up the front panels lightly. Next will be to place all on the chassis/frame and see how it does and adjust plenty. I am also thinking I will have to either Dremel or file/bevel the inner rear edges of the vertical bonnet panels to have them better clear the narrow lip on the forward body panels. And I will go with Codger's great suggestions to differently attach the coach to the chassis than original. And I am also figuring what braces I will build to support the chassis/frame rails upwards on the leaf springs to get ride height as best I can.

For those using any of the Pocher screws, the 1.3mm drill bits from Paul are essential. It was suggested in the build directions to use a #91 screw (4 actually) to hold the cowl/windshield to the forward coach skirts. Well, I didn't measure all exact but that is too long and didn't dare try that. So I clipped #91 screws closer to a #90 and used them on the passenger side. Yes.... horrors.... depending on how it aligns I will CA the joint. Else I am sure it will all pop loose once I complete the final assembly and place the last panel on the chassis.

And in tribute to our fellow builder Mad Steve from Johannesburg I will add a category of 'Cut screws' = 2! (He had used something like: snapped screws - snapped fittings - backwards to move forward moves. I was marveling at his Bugatti coach build and wish he would return! Besides, it would not be fair to add a category of bad or poorly fitting pieces or panels. I've already lost count as have we all I imagine.

spacer.pngspacer.pngspacer.png

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello all and greetings Ian.... nice to see you here. Yes I've done a bit more to it. Sorry no pictures yet. I am still plodding. And today was a few four letter jobs..... nothing major and I am proud that I did not put my hand or foot through anything or send anything sailing. Not deliberately or forcefully anyway. I think I have a new category for build progress/pitfalls: emotional ups and downs. Several of those today. Back to neutral now.

 

My saving grace was a break to deliver four antique tube radios I sold. (Something has to pay for this one.) And then I raked pine straw and placed it in the garden beds. What does this have to do with a Pocher rebuild?  ...... read on.

 

So I set to stabilizing and trying to firm up the doors on this gem. Passenger side is pretty good. Driver side is horrid. All you need do was touch the bottom and inwards it goes. So.... remember.... the floor is on this babe good and the inner side body panels and lower recesses for them are firmly in and access limited..... so to get to the bottom driver side hinge I drilled an ~1/4" access hole through the bottom rear vertical edge of the floor adjacent to outer panel. Bingo.... I can see the rear edges of the hinge and inside of the outer body. Scratched the walls and prepared to CA the hinge to the outer body panel. Whoooosh..... out it spits and frees from the bottom hinge and bottom of door pops and swings free somehow held by the top hinge which held. [insert your favorite four letter friends..... ] So I deliver the radios and rake the pine straw and work in the garden about an hour. Serenity returns.

 

I regroup and go at it again. Success. Door is on, carefully reinserted over the hinge (between inner beige panel and outer door skin). Couple dabs of CA to wick and hold the hinge to outer body panel and door skin. Ps. I even used the trick of a couple toothpick drops of 3-in-1 machine oil or sewing machine oil on the hinges and hinge pin before I started the 'glue job' in hopes it might swing when I am done. No verdict yet. The door was bad to begin. I give myself 50:50 odds. At least the drivers window is down. Maybe one day I can put the tub on and steering wheel back in. Something to strive for......

 

So yep, still a feral cat..... and a witch with one heck of a broom. And it was tempting to want to set out and find the ahem 'builder' of this beaut. But I didn't bother. Yes..... the problem with this one now is in the mirror. I bought it. :) And as other dear friends would say, Terry your only problem is the six inches between your ears.

 

And Ian..... you are off the hook. This was not your build. At least not that I know of...... but hey it could be.... How much will you give me for it?

 

Stay tuned. And I hope to have some decent ideas and saves on this again soon. I have made further progress on how I think I will attach the coach to the frame. If it works I will do it at four points, all four lower outer corners near the frame. And if that works, depending on the wheel and axle alignment proceed and set about to raising and supporting the body above the front and rear leaf springs. Believe it or not, the bonnet sits pretty well on the coach and radiator. I also used 0.072 brass rod and made the two outer vertical radiator tubes. And I will use two pieces of same making horizontal rods to support the radiator and firewall rigid. If I ever get that far.

 

All the best.

Edited by Terryz
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tremendous....I think the one I sold has gone to an enthusiast like you but hes never sent me an update. I know he will when its finished....I would say the fit of the shell with the bonnet and firewall was what was putting me off for years then I noticed the firewall was ajustable and kicked my own butt...[Bear in mind that bit was built when I bought it] Keep at it....I know you will succeed...Ian.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well Terry I've concluded that I'm of no use to you for help. You are in deep waters and I understand you're trying to salvage the wreck caused by others.

I will tell you (again) I scratchbuilt three sets of doors before getting acceptable results. I also completely changed the door hinging (and latching) system - all out of necessity. But if I read you right, and you CA'd the hinges to the doors, my method is gone by the boards. And if you get that far, you'll have hell's time painting the car assembled like that. My hinging avoids that.

I do hope you manage to get a representative model but apply the experience to another Pocher classic and this will have been a good learning experience.

You have too much talent and skills in other areas that you can't be successful here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello Codger.... yes, and no worries. I appreciate the input and wisdom. It is quite informative and it is nice to see what can and could be done. But you are right..... I did not get any face cards in this deck. Yet I do hope to apply some concepts and approaches and a piece or two of my craft. By example, I will soundly secure the coach down on the sides of the frame. But it is also true I don't think I can do many of the nice modifications. Not without a whole new coach tub and all panels and $. And as you had suggested earlier, size it up well before proceeding or deciding. I am also doing that. Daily.

 

And don't worry..... if I ever drive this gem to a Pocher car show, I promise I will park in the back corner. Over by the dumpsters. Don't worry, I won't park next to you. :) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Terryz said:

. And as you had suggested earlier, size it up well before proceeding or deciding. I am also doing that. Daily.

 

And don't worry..... if I ever drive this gem to a Pocher car show, I promise I will park in the back corner. Over by the dumpsters. Don't worry, I won't park next to you. :)

That is not the message I wished to send Terry. Good that you evaluate what it will take to get a model worth finishing - saving funds is most important when you begin with someone else's bad start.

But there are no 'Pocher shows' and superiority was never a game I played. I offered my stuff as possible help for any type builders. I hope you find some things of value should you continue with this build.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We will all learn from this build as it gos on hopefully...I learn something new every day and I'm 70.....Oh thats not me on the avatar by the way thats my late in laws..Nice picture my wife puts on Facebook every year and I havnt the heart to change it.

 

Keep at it Terry YOU WILL FINISH THIS POCHER and you will be proud of it....You've got a lot further than I did and like I say "You learn something new every day"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...