Richard Tucker Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 Hi All, I have decided to do a Portuguese camo scheme for my Junkers 86 build as I've never done one before. The kit and scheme is below. https://www.italeri.com/en/product/2746 I tend to use Vallejo Model Air paint and have got some Gunship Green and US Flat Brown which are good colour matches for FS30109 and FS34092. FS26307 is a grey colour and not a light blue / gray as suggested in the photo. FS33434 looks like a beige colour in the above scheme but FS3343 is Yellow ochre which is a much darker colour. Is the photo wrong and the FS numbers correct? Is the photo correct and the FS numbers wrong? Should I just give up and do a German version ?!! Cheers Richard 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 The colours are similar to those often shown in profiles of German export aircraft, but they have generally been shown to be misinterpretations of the standard German 61/62/63/65 colours. This includes, for example, the Swedish Ju.86s). The standard colours are known to have been applied to the Portuguese Ju.52s. In which case you'd be better looking for examples of those. As a guide, judging from the profile above, the green is about right, the brown should be redder and darker (at least when new), and the beige should be a light greenish-grey which faded fairly rapidly to a dove grey. The undersides 65 is well known. One problem with the apparently fictitious export scheme is that there does not seem to have been any beige/light brown in the RLM range at this time, therefore no such paint will have been produced in Germany. On the other hand, I don't believe that, the Monogram Guide aside, that the missing colours numbers 67, 68, and 69 have ever been positively identified. I have found a photo on the net showing this pattern, and also a profile which Italeri has presumably used. However I also found an image on the net from a Portuguese modelling source showing the third colour as a light grey. As direct importing of such is forbidden on this site, I recommend a visit to forum.modelismo-na.net. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holzhamer Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 Not sure if this will be of much help, but the only photo I know of this Junkers is this one The legend mentions that the camouflage are German colours - green/ grey/ brown. Perhaps the shades we see in other export machines? I’m thinking Hungarian, Yugoslavia and such countries that also got export versions of several Luftwaffe planes. I recall reading somewhere that there was in fact a brown paint meant only for foreign buyers... Anyway if you need help translating Portuguese to English let me know 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 Green, grey and brown are a good description of the 61/62/63 scheme. The existence of specific export colours, although commonly used, appears to have been a supposition not supported by evidence. Perhaps one day such will appear, but until then there is room for considerable doubt. The matter is probably confused by the existence of an intermediate scheme between the familiar standard pattern of 61/61/63 with several changes of colour along the fuselage and the later familiar scheme of 70/71 with much fewer changes. The intermediate scheme has the early colours with less changes than the first but more than the second. It is seen on He.111Ps and Romanian He.111H-3s, and also on Portuguese Ju.52. Possibly it exists on other exported aircraft in this period - the Portuguese Ju.86 may well be another example although with a very distinctive individual variation over the wing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blimpyboy Posted October 3, 2020 Share Posted October 3, 2020 (edited) On 10/1/2020 at 9:51 PM, Holzhamer said: The legend mentions that the camouflage are German colours - green/ grey/ brown. I recently found a Portuguese modelling site that listed the colours as RLM 61/62/63 over RLM 65, and included a nice set of profiles. For the life of me, I cannot find it again, but will post a link up if/when I do. Edited October 3, 2020 by Blimpyboy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blimpyboy Posted October 3, 2020 Share Posted October 3, 2020 (edited) Still no luck with the Portuguese website. However, I have a copy of the IPMS Austria Ju 86 decal sheet, which claims the colours (of a similar camouflage scheme) to be RLM 67, 68 and 69 over RLM 64, and that these were export colours in 1938. It also says “Due to different sources, the colours could have been RLM 61 (dark brown), 62 (green), 63 (green grey). Now, I’m going to be ‘that guy’ and say “I’m pretty sure I read somewhere” that the colours on Austrian Ju 86s were often erroneously claimed to be different from those used on most export users - which were 61/62/63. Going by Owl sheets for Austrian and Portuguese Ju 52 bombers (OWLDS72058 and OWLDS72059, respectively), the colours stated for 1937-period upper surfaces - for Ju 52s with very different camouflage patterns - are RLM 61/62/63. So, I feel it wouldn’t be too much of a bow to draw, to say that 61/62/63 seem to be your friends in this matter - mind you, I’m no Luftwaffe or colour guy, so someone out there will probably have a better idea. I hope this doesn’t confuse things too much... Edited October 3, 2020 by Blimpyboy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyOD Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 @Richard Tucker Just wondered if you built this one Richard? I’ve just picked up the same kit and fancy the Portuguese scheme too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 One thing to be careful of in this period is the pattern. Yes, the colours were 61/62/63, but the pattern was less complex than the Luftwaffe scheme. if more so than the later 70/71 pattern. This can be seen by counting the number of colour changes along the rear fuselage. I do have profiles for Portuguese Ju.52s in this pattern and colours - somewhere. The He.111H-3s for Romania were also in this pattern, which was also seen on a few Luftwaffe He.111P. However, it seems to have been missed by every work I've seen on Luftwaffe camouflage. I can't confirm that the Swedish and Austrian Ju.86s used this pattern or the earlier Luftwaffe standard: maybe the Portuguese ones didn't either but count the colour changes to find out. I've found two jpgs with the Portuguese pattern: anyone interested send a PM with your email address. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Tucker Posted August 27, 2021 Author Share Posted August 27, 2021 On 8/25/2021 at 8:13 PM, TonyOD said: @Richard Tucker Just wondered if you built this one Richard? I’ve just picked up the same kit and fancy the Portuguese scheme too. I did but I can't remember what paints I used other than I expect they were from the Vallejo Luftwaffe set I have. Extra bonus points if you can name all the other planes it shares the top of the kids bookcase with? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyOD Posted August 27, 2021 Share Posted August 27, 2021 6 hours ago, Richard Tucker said: Extra bonus points if you can name all the other planes it shares the top of the kids bookcase with? Well I know the funny looking thing with the pusher prop is a Saab J-21, beyond that not a scoobie! The Ju-86 looks very smart! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fukuryu Posted August 27, 2021 Share Posted August 27, 2021 12 hours ago, Richard Tucker said: Extra bonus points if you can name all the other planes it shares the top of the kids bookcase with? Saab J-21, FFVS J-22, Mitsubishi G3M1, Antonov A-7. Oh, and Junkers Ju-86K. I'll take my bonus points in bitcoins, please... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingo Ritz Posted August 28, 2021 Share Posted August 28, 2021 The were RLM export colors, specifically, RLM 67 Dark Olive Green, RLM 68 Light Olive Green, RLM 69 Light Tan, and RLM 64 Light Blue. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giampiero Piva Posted August 28, 2021 Share Posted August 28, 2021 Luftwaffe export colours. HTH Cheers Giampiero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted August 28, 2021 Share Posted August 28, 2021 This should be considered with great caution: it has never been confirmed as being used - not even on this Dornier - whereas there are several cases where export aircraft have been recorded as being in 61/62/63 (Romania, Hungary, Sweden at least). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blimpyboy Posted August 5, 2022 Share Posted August 5, 2022 On 10/4/2020 at 8:51 AM, Blimpyboy said: Still no luck with the Portuguese website. Found it. Finally. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarLos Posted August 5, 2022 Share Posted August 5, 2022 About the colours: as in the Ju 52, probably. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tempestfan Posted August 5, 2022 Share Posted August 5, 2022 (edited) On 8/28/2021 at 5:36 AM, Giampiero Piva said: Luftwaffe export colours. HTH Cheers Giampiero Looking at the German callouts for 64 and 69, I wonder whether they are actually a "reverse" translation of the supposed English "translations". "Light" translates to both "Licht" and "hell" in German (just the same as it's in English), but I have never heard of any colour being called "Licht-..." in German, apart from some references to 65 and 76 - in English-language literature. [EDITED in: Just had a look into the RAL classic range, and much to my surprise, there is a "Lichtblau" (5012, a MUCH darker colour than 64, 65 or 76), and several other colours including "Licht-". So I was wrong, as so often... However, I could not track down any RAL colour even including "Lohfarben". Following Monogram's logic, "Light" may either be blue or tan - but not red, green or yellow? I see not much sense in those names, and sincerely doubt they are official or have ever been used in German(y). "Lohfarben" is also a German colour name I have never come across. Edited August 5, 2022 by tempestfan Looking up RAL... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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