I Need Help - British Napoleonic Regiment of Foot Figures??

[Black Knight]

1. if the regiment were on the outside of the siege the Light would be used, to pick off Frenchies on the walls. The Light were the skirmishers and expert shots, even with smooth bore muskets. They worked in pairs, one firing and one spotting and loading

 

2. Every regiment was different in saying which company was Light, Centre or Grenadier. However, many regiments broke up their Light company/companies and attached them to each Centre company, eg a Centre company could have 6 to 8 Light attached as skirmishers for them, these men were usually under command of a junior officer, a Lieutenant or Ensign

 

3. The French recorded every single wound whereas the British only recorded those who were hospitalised or needed the surgeon. eg, if a man got a flesh wound from a musket ball he was recorded as a battle wounded casualty by the French but the British soldier wrapped his wound and carried on regardless

 

4. Usually one company was kept at home as the recruit base. As men were recruited and trained they were then sent to companies in the battle zone, appointed as needs were.

 

5 sometimes, if the regiment was big enough, the sick and wounded were put into one company. This was for administration and command purposes. Therefore, its possible, only possible, that of your 8 of 10 companies, one was in England or Ireland recruiting and training and one was in Cadiz made up of the sick & wounded. 

[mhaselden]

Thanks Black Night.  As always, you're a fount of really useful information.

 

The 2/47th were helping defend the fortified town of Tarifa from a French siege, hence my suspicion that the Light Company may not have been much use.

 

I'm not sure the 2/47th had a company back in the UK (or, if they did, it would be an 11th Company).  The muster roll lists companies 1-10 and there are no indications of personnel being in the UK (at least not on the pages I've reviewed thus far (years 1809-1811).  There is a note for a recruit who joined the 2/47th at Cadiz in early Jan 1812 who had enlisted in Oct 1810, and is shown as being "paid at Hilsea until 14 Dec 1811."  I'm guessing the latter date is when he embarked for Cadiz and that Hilsea may have been the depot (or what passed for such) for the Regiment.  This would be interesting because Samuel was married on Portsmouth in 1831 after he got back to the UK from India (he was a Sergeant at the time).  

 

Appreciate all the other notes on the vagaries and variations of battalion constructs.  Clearly, there was no standard way of doing things so much will come down to conjecture unless I can find patterns in the info I've collected.  Unfortunately, I think I missed a trick while I had the documents.  I copied the entire muster role for the timeframes covering the Battles of Vitoria and San Sebastian but I should have done the same for Barrosa and Tarifa because it may have shown some patterns in the companies involved (i.e. soldiers listed as being killed etc).  I guess I'll have to go back to Kew (at some point...not for another year, probably, since I live in Germany), and take another look at those records.  

[Ratch]

40 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

4. Usually one company was kept at home as the recruit base. As men were recruited and trained they were then sent to companies in the battle zone, appointed as needs were.

I thought that was one Battalion 

[mhaselden]

14 minutes ago, Ratch said:

I thought that was one Battalion 

 

Yeah...it was supposed to be the 2nd Battalion that enabled recruitment and training with the 1/47th Foot operationally deployed in India.  In theory, the 2/47th Foot was the "training" battalion but they were poorly placed for that role.  In May 1808, the 2/47th sailed to Jersey as a garrison force.  In October 1809 they were sent to Gibraltar, again as a garrison force.  It's tough to train new recruits when you have to sail them to Jersey or Gibraltar to join the "training" battalion.  The 2/47th spent a year in Gib and then went to Cadiz...and they weren't training there, that's for sure!

 

The few notes I've gleaned so far from the muster rolls indicates there was some kind of training establishment in the UK but, thus far, I've found no official records for it.  Other muster rolls I've seen (admittedly from the mid-19th Century, break out the depot as a separate entity with its own muster roll.  Alas, that doesn't seem to have happened with the 47th Foot...or, if it did, I haven't found the record yet.  

Edited October 2, 2020 by mhaselden

[Black Knight]

37 minutes ago, Ratch said:

I thought that was one Battalion 

Sometimes, but not all regiments had enough men for more than one Battalion so a company was detached

During the Peninsular War some regiments only had enough men for 6 or so companies in one battalion

There is also the vagary of a couple of regiments being listed as 2/xx when they had only one battalion

A Battalion could or should be between 800 and 1200 men or so in 10 companies of 100 men. If the regiment had only 600 men they could be 10 companies of 60, or 6 companies of 100 or any other mathematical combination

[mhaselden]

From the 1809 muster roll, Samuel Hayes enlisted on 4 Dec 1808 (that's off by a day from his record of service - that says he enlisted on 5 Dec).  He was "paid at the Depot to 19 Feb" and officially joined 2/47th on 20 Feb.  Interestingly, there's a record elsewhere in the financials section of that notes "Rations while on board ship for 37 men and boys from Feby. 20th to March 7th, each at 6 per diem" (I believe it was 6 shillings).  This suggests the 2/47th took over responsibility for Samuel once he boarded the ship, and that "the Depot" was well-enough established to keep him for 2.5 months, presumably during which time he would have received his initial training.  

 

Samuel was 16 when he enlisted.  It would be ironic if the 47th's depot was at Hilsea given that Samuel's future wife was born in the parish of St.Mary's Portsea a few months after he left for Jersey (yes, he married a girl much younger than him when he returned from India around 1830!).  

Edited October 2, 2020 by mhaselden

[mhaselden]

A google of "Hilsea Depot" and "Napoleon" reveals a few mentions, including one that suggests a number of regiments had soldiers there.  There are a couple of references in the UKNA to a "Hilsea Depot" including a muster roll covering the period when Samuel was on the mainland prior to sailing for Jersey.  I guess I'll have to dig that one out of the archives as well on my next visit to Blighty!

Edited October 2, 2020 by mhaselden

[Black Knight]

1 hour ago, mhaselden said:

Samuel was 16 when he enlisted.  It would be ironic if the 47th's depot was at Hilsea given that Samuel's future wife was born in the parish of St.Mary's Portsea a few months after he left for Jersey (yes, he married a girl much younger than him when he returned from India around 1830!).  

This was the way back then. A man didn't marry until he had enough money or a job good enough to support a wifey and children

[mhaselden]

6 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

This was the way back then. A man didn't marry until he had enough money or a job good enough to support a wifey and children

I suspect it had more to do with the fact that the Army discouraged marriage...plus Samuel didn't spend much time in the UK: 4+ years in Spain followed by 15+ years in India and Burma.  Good score, though, for a 38 year-old to marry a lass of 21! 😃

[Black Knight]

The army did not discourage marriage but conditions were not good for married. They slept in one cot in the main dorm, which had cots for about 50 men, with only a blanket hung up for any privacy. A wife got 1/2 rations and children over 5 got 1/4 rations. When the regiment went overseas only a few wives were allowed to go, afair, it was 20 wives per battalion and they had to work, eg sewing, washing, no time wasters or girlie-girls. Older children had to work as well, cleaning equipment, fetching and carrying.  Even officers had to abide these regiment rules. Wellington wasn't even allowed to have his wife over to Portugal as his staff had their full allowed compliment and the staff officers wives did some work, such as nursing, overseeing the soldiers wives.

A sergeant had good pay and prospects, enough to take a wife.

[mhaselden]

Agreed.  It wasn't official policy to hinder men marrying bit, as you point out, conditions were less than ideal.  There are stories of women giving birth while 50 of their closest neighbours, all male, stood on and watched.  It seems pretty horrendous to modern eyes but the early 1800s were a different time with different perspectives.

[mhaselden]

Just found this interesting page which lists regimental depots in the period 1804-1812.  

 

https://www.napoleon-series.org/military-info/organization/Britain/Infantry/c_infantrydepots.html

 

Interestingly, the 47th Foot doesn't have a formal depot in 1804 while, by 1810, it had one established at Bury (which makes sense given the Lancashire affiliation of the Regiment).  

[Mike W]

This is probably the best reference: https://www.amazon.co.uk/British-Napoleonic-Uniforms-Complete-Illustrated/dp/1862274843/ref=sr_1_1?crid=5EBJFRYI2XWR&dchild=1&keywords=british+napoleonic+uniforms&qid=1601749874&sprefix=british+napoleonic%2Caps%2C145&sr=8-1

 

Good luck,

 

Mike

[mhaselden]

1 hour ago, Mike W said:

This is probably the best reference: https://www.amazon.co.uk/British-Napoleonic-Uniforms-Complete-Illustrated/dp/1862274843/ref=sr_1_1?crid=5EBJFRYI2XWR&dchild=1&keywords=british+napoleonic+uniforms&qid=1601749874&sprefix=british+napoleonic%2Caps%2C145&sr=8-1

 

Good luck,

 

Mike

 

Thanks for the pointer.  I'll look into it but, since I'm really only interested in the 2/47th, I'm wondering about the cost-effectiveness of the purchase.  I have the Osprey "Wellington's Infantry (1)" which has a tremendous amount of useful detail.  It seems like the main advantage of the Franklin volume is the page of illustrations dedicated to each regiment.  If others have the book and feel I'm undervaluing it, please let me know.  Happy to splurge if it's worth it.  

[Black Knight]

tbh, even though its a top book, for one or two figures it may not be worth buying it

[mhaselden]

Yeah, that's what I suspected.  No doubt the illustrations of the 47th Regiment uniforms would be very useful...I'm just reluctant to spend that amount of money for a few pages of graphics. 

[Mike W]

The book also covers generalities, i.e. kit weapons etc.

 

Mike

[AWFK10]

It was quite common for the flank companies of every battalion serving with a particular force to be detached from their own unit and combined into provisional grenadier and light battalions that operated separately. That could explain the presence at the siege of just the 8 centre companies of the 2/47th.

[mhaselden]

On 10/2/2020 at 9:50 PM, Black Knight said:

3. The French recorded every single wound whereas the British only recorded those who were hospitalised or needed the surgeon. eg, if a man got a flesh wound from a musket ball he was recorded as a battle wounded casualty by the French but the British soldier wrapped his wound and carried on regardless

Now that I've had chance to look through more of the muster rolls, I see what you mean.  The 2/47th's casualties at the Siege of San Sebastian were horrific for the time and yet the muster roll only reflects those who were killed in action or who subsequently died of their wounds.  

 

I'm still digesting the information I retrieved, although I'm not sure there's too much more to be extracted from it.  That said, I'm also kicking myself for information I could have grabbed, like the names of the recruiting team in his home town in 1808, that I failed to look for.  Sometimes I'm frustratingly stupid! 

[Black Knight]

One other thing to consider on the uniforms; the uniforms were made of wool and that deteriorates quite quickly, especially in the harsh environment of Portugal & Spain of that period, viz, hot dry days and cold damp nights.

The British soldiers used Portuguese brown cloth to repair their uniforms. The men of some regiments had so much brown cloth on their clothes they were sometimes mistaken for Portuguese regiments, which wore all brown uniforms.

 

In one small battle the French advanced on their enemy confident that the 'Portuguese' would break and run as they had a reputation so to do. But the troops were mainly British with just a small number of Portuguese riflemen. They stood firm and drove the Frenchies not only back across a bridge but off the field. 

 

In this battle there was a funny incident. The main British troops had the 88th, the Connaught Rangers. One soldier stepped out of line and shot a rabbit tearing across the field. When he was admonished for this he told the officer 'Sure I can shoot Frenchies any time and every day but its not often I get the chance to shoot a nice rabbit for your honour's dinner!'

[mhaselden]

Thanks BK for those details (and the great personal story at the end).  We have this mental image of Napoleonic soldiers as being impeccably turned out, largely influenced by the available paintings which often fail to capture the grime and realism of life in the field.  I know have visions of soldiers merrily going into battle with all sorts of odd patches to their uniforms, almost having the appearance of a patchwork quilt.  

[Mike W]

Apparently Wellington wasn't bothered by his men's appearance as long as their muskets were clean and they had sufficient ammunition. He did object to Guards officers carrying umbrellas though!

 

Mike

[Black Knight]

Just before the Battle of Waterloo an officer made a complaint to the Duke that the Inniskillings were carrying one pistol in one saddle holster and a bottle of beer in the other and most of the men, including the officers, were drunk.

Allegedly the Duke replied 'I don't care if they are half-armed and half-cut (that means drunk) as long as they damn well fight like the devils when I need them'

 

The famous Irish Stout brewery of Guinness invented a specially shaped beer bottle which fitted into the horse saddle holsters of that period. The bottle was known as the 'Soldier' or 'Soldiers bottle' and was still in use up to the late 1980s. Allegedly Guinness invented the shaped bottle just for the Inniskillings upon their request for a bottle which was easier to carry.

[mhaselden]

 

On 10/2/2020 at 9:50 PM, Black Knight said:

3. The French recorded every single wound whereas the British only recorded those who were hospitalised or needed the surgeon. eg, if a man got a flesh wound from a musket ball he was recorded as a battle wounded casualty by the French but the British soldier wrapped his wound and carried on regardless.

 

Ok...Black Knight's comment about wounded not appearing in British muster rolls got me thinking (and that's ALWAYS a dangerous thing - blame BK because any fallout from me straining the feeble matter that resides, or rattles around, in my cranial cavity is entirely HIS fault!).

 

My train of thought went like this...if the British muster rolls don't indicate if a soldier was wounded, perhaps the medal rolls might give some insights.  Given that the 2/47th was operating as a complete battalion from the Battle of Vitoria through San Sebastian and Nivelles to Nive in December 1813, then logically the awards of MGSM clasps for those battles should give some indication of how many soldiers participated in San Sebastian but weren't involved in the later battles.  Now, it's far from an exact calculation because a soldier might not have been involved in battle for any number of reasons.  However, I thought it might be a useful starting point. 

 

So I merrily dived into the Napoleonic medal rolls on Ancestry.  Luckily, the rolls are listed alphabetically, with each regiment's soldiers grouped together, so I only had to look for "47th Foot" and then tally up all the MGSM clasps...and THAT's when the trouble started.

 

First off, remarkably few MGSMs were awarded to soldiers from the 2/47th, only 59 in total for the entire regiment.  That seems an excessively small number.  I realize the MGSM was awarded decades after the actual fighting took place but, still, it's probably less than 10% of the actual size of the regiment during the bulk of the Peninsula War.  

 

The clasp totals came out as follows (obviously, many soldiers, including my relative, had multiple clasps):

• Barrosa: 27
• Vitoria: 49
• San Sebastian: 45
• Nivelle: 8
• Nive: 17

 

Some other interesting patterns emerged:

• All 8 of the soldiers that were awarded the Nivelle clasp also received clasps for Vitoria and San Sebastian, while 3 of the 8 also received the Barrosa clasp in addition to Vitoria and San Sebastian.
• Of the 17 soldiers awarded the Nive clasp, all bar one had served at both Vitoria and San Sebastian, and the one outlier served at San Sebastian but missed Vitoria (he was awarded the Barrosa clasp so perhaps he was wounded there, missed Vitoria and rejoined for San Sebastian).  Eight of the Nive awardees also received the Barrosa clasp.
• Only 3 soldiers received all 5 clasps.  Of those awarded 4 clasps, a pattern emerges where they were either awarded the Barrosa clasp or the Nivelle clasp but not both together.  
• Of soldiers with only 1 clasp, 6 had Barrosa, 6 had Vitoria, and 3 had San Sebastian.  No soldiers with the Nive or Nivelle clasps had just one clasp. 

 

Given the rather small sample size, it's impossible to draw any positive conclusions.  However, it's clear that the lion's share of the clasp awards were for Vitoria and San Sebastian.  The Battle of Nivelle saw significantly fewer clasp awards than for any of the other battles, with the Battle of the Nive next in line.  The increase in awards for the Battle of the Nive perhaps indicates that soldiers wounded at San Sebastian had returned to the Battalion.  

 

I'd appreciate other critiques of this brief piece of analysis.  It was an interesting exercise but I'm still puzzled by the lack of medals given that, even at Nivelle, there were still at least 250-300 hundred soldiers in the 2/47th after the approx. 50% losses at sustained San Sebastian.  

[Black Knight]

Interesting

Now here's a googly for you.

The idea of a medal for being at a certain battle was a very new idea

It was only given to those who applied in writing, with proof they were at the battle and the application had to be approved by a senior officer who was at that battle

It was the same process for getting a wounded-in-battle allowance or pension

except, the man wanting the medal had to pay  for it after it was allowed he could get it, afair it could cost up to £1 ~ thats about 10 days pay

But,

a. not a lot of the men desired to get the medal, especially as they had to pay for something which was of no use to them afterwards.

b. not a lot of officers signed off on the applications. Being a new concept they saw no need for a man to have a 'medal'

It was later as time went on the medal turned from being a commemorative medallion to something awarded for merit or bravery