Hurricane Mk.I, Arma Hobby 72nd scheme TBC

[Troy Smith]

Figure I'd better do something else for this GB.
I did start a project, convertingthe Airfix Mk.I to a IIa,  but I crumpled with the heat in early August, and drifted a bit in general.  I do intend to restart,  so this this is one of my KUTA builds. 

  
Arma Hobby were kind enough to send me a expert kit when their Mk.I came out, having read my innumerable posts on Hurricanes, and one useful comment on their CAD images.  So, this has been a 'to do' for a while.

 

obligatory contents.

 

50620167 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

I forced my self to clear enough space, and then locked in,  once I started I then found it was 3 hours later, and was very hungry,  but was here.

Not done lots of photos as setting them up and posting takes time , so went for significant ones.

 

I found the peg on the two wheel bays halves needed careful filing for it to fit the slot, getting these parts to fit snugly is important, as this is where the main UC leg goes later, and affect fit of wheel bay into wing.
Also in need of enlarging are the holes in the main spar for the UC leg retraction.

The instructions would have you fit the UC legs early on, but they can be wiggled in later, as was demonstrated by @Procopius  a while back.

 

OOB, except for one odd omission, which is the pipe in the wheel well.  The Arma instructions show a hole, but no pipe.
Drilled a couple of holes, and using an Airfix part as reference, added one from lead wire.

 

Cleaning up the upper and lower edges of the WW front back back is very important, and I used the wing upper and lower as a jig to get everything aligned dry, and the wick a little TET to attach the WW parts to the upper wing.

 

I then removed the lower part, and made sure the ends were properly joined, for the UC leg fixing.

the cross pieces took some wiggling into place, with the lower wing dry fitted, once happy, TET wicked to fix. and I dropped the etch upper part in later.

 

50620168 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

You can see the little peg closing up the wheel well corner

I've attached the etc side walls, and bits of etc to the cockpit framework. 

 

The aluminium and black are Tamiya, the Grey Green is AK.  I had given the etch a waster coat of Tamiya medium grey to act as primer as well.

And later, meant to sleep, and then had 'quick potter' and found it was 4 am.

 

First time I have really played with etch,  having only used the odd little bit,  even though most won't be seen, I persevered.

The seat harness is a right PITA, which took some time to get right,   Tamiya buff for the seat straps.

 

I was quite impressed at the IP when done, but was fiddly,  not as bad as the seat, and the top layer decal was glossy, so added matt varnish with a tiny touch of mid grey, and the re-did the dials with Kleer.
I followed the sequence, file back kit IP, paint black, add decal, add first layer of etch, trying to align the dials, then the centre RAF panel, then the top decal.

I used Kleer to stick the panels onto the decal and to each other.  The top decal holds it all together, and then I used Microsol, and left it.

The end result is impressive, but glossy.  This is before the oil wash has added some depth to the seat, or  matt down the IP

 

50620170 by losethekibble, on Flickr 

 

To matt the IP, I used W&N Galeria Matt, with a tiny amount of grey, and when dry, picked out the dials in Kleer.
Jumping ahead, the etch is a fraction larger than the plastic, and cause a gap when trying to join the fuselage halves, scraping the slot in the fuselage deeper was the solution, though perhaps just a line for the etch would do.

 

The alignment holes for the cockpit sidewall tubing needs enlarging I found, but a few twists of a 0.6mm drill bit sorted that, it was just what was still in the pin vice, and also the right size for the lead wire in the wheel well.

I scraped off the buff on the buckles, and then used some cheap oil paint Paynes grey dissolved in lighter fuel as a wash.
You can remove or move the wash abut with a bit more lighter fuel if it's too much.

 

Again, I deviated from the instructions, assembling into  the starboard half, side  tube, the dry fit seat bulkhead, and tack in place from behind only on starboard side, then IP and centre tubing, as this can be attached to the bottom on the seat bulkhead and IP.
I had attached the port tubing, and by it's possible to make sure everything aligns from underneath without gluing to the starboard side.

 

As usual, most of the assembly was done using cheap superglue, mostly applied with a needle, tiny drops,  it's brittle but if careful, strong enough, and easy enough to snap off and rejoin if not aligned.   The black lid in the background is covered with small dried drops of SG, as I put down drop,  to dip the needle into. 

 

I nearly forgot the etch compass, which was very fiddly, and for all you can see, might be easier adding the etch dial to the moulded compass.
At this point I realised I had missed the seat adjuster lever, which I was able to wiggle into place.

 

50620193 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

I also found the lower tubing/footboard piece which has the control column and rudder pedals can be added to the underside, not the wheel well roof, so I'm going to do that.

two bits of etch I did'nt use, the rudder pedals, as the lack the centre bar, and a handle on the port wall side console, as the moulded part looked better, but  I added the two tiny dial supplied as a decal to the port side.  they can be seen on the left below...

 

50620188 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

All  pics with my 'toytown' camera, it's an old basic point and shoot digital by Concord,  the first digital camera I had was one of these, in fact, a slightly more basic model,   this one has some "improvements" that I don't much like, mainly an autofocus sensor ... still it was a fiver posted from ebay...  I mention this as while not brilliant pics,  they show what going on and I'm still amused at how good a result can be got from such basic technology.

Plus the batteries last for ages, and it's simple to use, turn off flash,  use close up,  snap away.  the 3 pics above have been  cropped and then enlarged on Flickr using their editor.

 

I can see why etch can drive folks mad,  I used what was provided as practice. If built closed up you could skip some of it with no problem, even with an open canopy you need to use a light to see most of it, so these pics are interesting reminder.  

 

I must say, I did find the lack of locating holes for the centre cockpit parts a bit trying, the moulding is very precise and it will all line up but really requires a lot of care, and dry run test fitting.
I note that their IIc kit has simplified the cockpit construction. I have one of those they sent me, and a great scheme, so will have to see how that goes. 
 

I'm pondering on schemes,  I'm waiting to idiot check the above to make sure I have not missed  anything or made some other silly error before doing the main construction.

 

I may need to do some edits for coherence later..

[JackG]

Hi Troy, the Arma Hurricane was my choice for the GB as well, and hope now that summer is over can find the required bench time.

 

The pipe you added in front of the pneumatic tank in the wheel well was something I noticed too when I tried a dry fit of the wheels in the up position.  I found said tank to be in the way, and needs to be placed more into the wheel bay recess.  A couple photos I found show the pipe not going into the floor, but is an extension of the raised detail found on the kit part?

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

[Troy Smith]

On 29/09/2020 at 00:22, JackG said:

A couple photos I found show the pipe not going into the floor, but is an extension of the raised detail found on the kit part?

Yes, and that is what I did.

Just used a bit of lead wire, and drilled out the holes, the end is seen poking out the main spar.  Didn't notice that pneumatic tank needed lowering, but see what you mean.  Thanks for the pics.  Not sure if the brownish pipe is wartime standard,  I'll have to hunt up the walkround shots of the Finnish plane which I think show this.

 

50620197 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

the wheel well has had a paynes grey oil wash since.

 

I mentioned above adding the bottom cockpit structure from below, rather than sat on the wing, to ensure alignment,  it was possible to wiggle in and friction fit, and the secure with tiny drops of TET at the relevant points.

 

Now, I wish I had added the upper wing to the fuselage, then the lower, as I had problems getting the fuselage to sit low enough,  in the end I had to file down the areas  shown with the white arrows to get the fit right, but was about to again get a friction fit I was happy with, and again use the capillary action of TET to secure. 

 

50620198 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

I did find when I glued the fuselage halves together a very slight misalignment, I could just feel it with a fingernail, easily scraped and sanded out on the cowl, and on the fabric, I just trimmed with a scalpel, a fine line matches the fabric.

The fuselage join was again capillary TET, and most was applied inside, leaving very little external seepage. 

 

 

 

As has been noted by @Stew Dapple, and @lasermonkey, the fin needs a bit of scraping to get it to fit into the tailplanes slot easily,  I also need to clean out the slot at the rear of the fuselage, and be very careful cleaning up the sprue nibs on the tailplanes, but when done this provide a foolproof alignment, and the fit of this to the fuselage is superb, one in lined up, it was fixed in place with capillary TET.  Just need to clean and a few join lines now.

 

50620201 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

The shot also show the radiator,  I note in the IIc kit Arma have reverted to the classic method of doing the radiator, moulding the front with the intake, and a back section,  as here the front intake is split, so requires careful alignment, and the some filing and scraping to remove the seam and thin the lip.

 

The prop is dry fitted , I had to carefully deepen the slots in the spinner, and scrape the inside if the spinner as well to get the backplate to sit flush,  I have seen quite a few build when it stick out, and it shouldn't

 

Hurricane oil ring ES6 scan0347_zpsdd3baf66 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

I had a go at drilling out the exhaust, using one of my favourite tools, a sewing needle in a pinchuck, to make pilot holes, the back is easy, the front ones used two, on either side, and a smaller drill bit, which was the used to join the holes up.  

50620200 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

I can see me starting a Mk.IIc kit as well, as looking at it I can see how Arma have changed aspects of the part design that in the Mk.I kit I have found rather fiddly or over engineered.

One thing that they did miss was using a separate lower fuselage,  as this then makes the join on a seam line (Hurricane have removable lower fuselage panels)  and avoids a join line down the centre, and allows easy addition of a different panel for a Sea Hurricane. It also gives full access to the seam from inside.

Given the way Arma have learned lessons in the Mk.I compared to the IIc just from studying the parts,  I hope they do this on the 1/48th kit.

I'll add a @Wojtek Bulhak  in here as he maybe interested.

 

Hmm, looks like we are getting to scheme decision time....

 

[JackG]

Troy, any opinion on the diameter of the openings of the gun ports? 

 

Unless Quickboost is wrong, I took their measurement of 1/48 scale resin product, and found their example to have 1.4mm diameter holes. 

 

Calculating to 1/72 scale:

1.4mm x 48 = 67.2

67.2  divided 72nd scale = 0.93mm

 

Arma model measurement is about 0.7mm

 

regards,

Jack

[Troy Smith]

2 minutes ago, JackG said:

any opinion on the diameter of the openings of the gun ports?

No, but not looked closely.  I'll have a look later. 

That said, better to have too small than too large, easy enough to open out, and many will build with patches over anyway.

 

One small glitch,  they have missed the flat bottomed nature of the wing /nose join,  it flat triangle as there are supports from the main spar to the bottom of the engine bearers. 

It's really hard to see in mot photos, this one of the Mk.IV in Birmingham shows this well,  as the light catches it.

Move It - Thinktank Birmingham Science Museum - Hawker Hurricane Mark IV by Elliott Brown, on Flickr

 

It's a minor glitch, easy enough to fix.  I have passed this detail onto Arma as well.

The new too Airfix 1/48th kit catches this very well BTW.

[PlaStix]

Great to see you here with a Hurricane build, Troy, Looking forward to following your progress.

Kind regards,

Stix

[Johnson]

Excellent thread Troy, full of useful tips.

 

I have the same kit waiting to be built. Looking through the past GBs, the last Hurricane STGB was in 2016, so maybe we'll be due another soon.

[Troy Smith]

Hmm.

Procrastination....

 

The TBC on scheme hinged on getting a specific aspect of the scheme done. 

 

@Stew Dapple very kindly sent me some decals, mostly 48th, but also a couple of 72nd from a Kagero set.

 

One of the 72nd  is the maybe best documented BoB Hurricane, in as much as there are 25 or more photos, from most angles...

This is a really famous shot

 

85 Squadron 117 by Сергей Кривицкий, on Flickr

if you follow the link, on page 1 of the album, there are the 25 or so pics....

 

Now, I have ranted about Xtradecal and their awful decals for this scheme, which are wrong in so many way (codes to slim, roundel ring wrong, 'sky grey' underside spec, and a black spinner with green bands, how they came up with that.....  (Kagero look to have got the codes and serial right) 

 

So, what colour is the spinner?

 

 

At this time, if you check the linked album as I suggested, you will note that 85 (and 17, also at Debden) used non black spinners, 85 used flight colours in France, the C/O, S/Ldr Peter Townsend P3166 VY-Q, has a white spinner, and there is a pre war shot of 111 Sq using the 111 numerals, with the top part in flight colour, but C/O plane with all white, as to the explanation for that.

 

Flight colours, are red, blue and yellow, for AB and C flights ( @Smithy has commentated on this so perhaps he can confirm) 

 

And from the tonal values, VY-R best matches red, in the above the spinner is good tonal match for the gun patches, which were fabric dope, basically the same brick red as roundel red,  and the stripes are very bright, as bright as the fin flash.

 

So roundel red with white stripes.  No idea why the white bands, section leader perhaps?     If anyone has a better idea of possible colours, I'd be interested to know the reasoning behind this.

 

That spinner,  was the make or break for this. 

 

first, I painted it Tamiya pale grey, as a primer, as Tamiya sticks better than Vallejo,  then Roundel Red, and tried using some Scalemaster white decal stripe.

 

No, wasn't going to work.... Didn't want to curve.  Now, If I was really clever I'd have tried a curved strip, but that was then getting a even curved strip...

 

So, I stripped the spinner,  redid the grey, then Vallejo white,  which took several coats (somewhere I have some Tamiya white...but where?)  and masked off the two strips, burnished them down, added some Kleer to seal the edges (I should have use white) and...

And, now I note, I did do a strip of curved masking tape, as can be seen in the foreground, which did curve a lot more easily.  The lower ring is broken by the prop blades and is a lot easier to mask.

 

I also carried one painting the exhausts,  which is multiple layers of washes.... and i can't find my rust wash which is really good for this.

 

50620209 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

well, after the tape came off, it was OK but not great, some bleed, a bit of a wobble...

 

Then I procrastinated.  Do I strip back, and re-do, or give up and go plan B.

 

I procrastinated some more.  Finally I had a go at some careful touch ups, and while it needs a little tweaking,  figured I really do not want to re-do this, and I really want to do this scheme.

 

So here we are.   Our build miesters would now have 5 pics, but you just get this.....   The painted spinner. 

 

50620211 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

It's a bit bitty and lumpy,  and would I presume be easier to airbrush.  As it on a brass rod, i could even re-do it....

 

but I'd like to get one build done for this GB,  my mojo fell off in the heatwave and I've been quite enjoying the problem solving, and being able to go, OK, that will do.  

 

I've been contemplating the underside colour as well, as this is a definite early June 'sky' repaint...

 

I've also been prodding my 1/48th IIa conversion about as well, but, bitty jobs to allow bigger parts to proceed,  like doing the seat and IP to allow the fuselage to be closed up.

 

and, it's now late and time to sleep.

 

cheers

T

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

Very nice work on the spinner Troy, ive never seen a sky demarcation that high up on the nose before. Was that a one of or would it have been somewhat common on the field re-paints ? It would make for an interesting build on my next Mk.I. 
 

Dennis

[CedB]

Seconded! 

Bill (perdu) taught me about 'dotting' - very fine brush and dot tiny amounts of paint over obvious wobbles. Works for me.

HTH

[Johnson]

Stripes on spinners are one of the hardest paint jobs to achieve.

 

7 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

i could even re-do it....

 

If you do, might I suggest a method that worked for me?

 

• Tape (Tamiya or similar) is wrapped around the spinner.
• The spinner is then placed on a block, with a hole drilled in it for the shaft, so that it can rotate - but not move up or down.
• Rotating the spinner, the tape is very gently cut with a new No 10 scalpel blade which is firmly held (fingers will do) on another block so that the cut remains at the same level as the spinner rotates. This can take a bit of setting up to get the blade at the right height.
• If the blade goes through into the paint or plastic underneath, it doesn't matter as the paint you then sparingly apply hides the faint cut lines.
• When dry, remove the tape.

 

It was a method I found here on BM and worked OK for me. Doesn't need an airbrush, I don't think it would help.

 

Cheers,

[Troy Smith]

10 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

ive never seen a sky demarcation that high up on the nose before. Was that a one of or would it have been somewhat common on the field re-paints ? It would make for an interesting build on my next Mk.I. 

No. 

It seems to be a feature seen on some 85 Sq and 17 Sq planes, in the July 1940 Life magazine photo shoot.  

Given both were based at Debden, and in some of the 17 Sq shots the main hangars are seen,  I suspect it was a quirk of the paint shop there, as the style is fairly consistent,  a high demarcation on the nose, and a wavy leading edge on the wing, sometimes on the lower fuselage line

This is seen on VY-R, H, K, N(the N is barely visible but it's the only letter that fits, it's the pic with the 6 pilots in a line infront) , and YB-A,C, W, 

85 Sq album here

https://www.flickr.com/photos/144949377@N05/albums/72157704898371932

17 Sq Album here

https://www.flickr.com/photos/144949377@N05/albums/72157678154026658

 

I don't recall seeing it anywhere else apart from these two squadrons at this time, hence my theory it was a local quirk.

[Smithy]

Great work Troy!

 

I think it's not silly to interpret the spinner as a dull red. A friend of mine Søren wrote a self published book on Zulu Lewis and he managed to obtain high quality copies of the photos of R when Lewis was tasked to use the aircraft for the benefit of the press visit. I'll check with Søren and if he doesn't mind I'll scan the photos from his book and send them to you.

 

I think it's almost certainly a section leader thing. 85 had started playing around flight designation colours and whatnot on spinners towards the end of the Sitzkrieg and this carried over to leader markings during the Battle of Britain proper.

 

Great work so far my friend, and I'll be watching this intently!

 

Tim

[Troy Smith]

Has it really been 9 day, my doesn't time fly when you have catarrh....  

 

I have been trying to get some work done on the IIA conversion,  stalled when I realised that Airfix have again scaled up a 72 problem to 48th (the seat is too high and too narrow) and other such faffing around...  not before I'd made up the seat, added the indent in the bottom, thinned the sides and added an etch harness....  I've put  fair amount of work into the IIa and I don't just want to try to bash it out against a deadline...and the ccokpit seems a bit skimpy after having done the 72nd Arma one with the etch!

 

Meanwhile, the subject of this thread should be do-able, as it's now ready for paint, 

 

So, I pondered on VY-R, and the in field repaint of the undersides.

 

Now, Sky and it's hues have been much debated,  personally I think the use of substitute paint is less common occurrence than a field mix,  which is what happened with the introduction of Ocean Grey in 1941, when a mixed grey was recommended of 7 parts Medium Sea Grey to 1 part Night.

In a thread ages ago (I'll edit in if I can find it)  @Nick Millman noted the pigments in Sky were Prussian Blue and Yellow Ochre.

Thre was a thread or article which talked about a 1940 mix, and how they started running out of the tint colours.  (another one to find)

 

Anyway,  as an experiment I got some Vallejo Prussian Blue and Yellow,  as RAF bases would have had White, (for the B/W undersides, and Roundel Blue and Yellow.

And added small amounts ....

In the image below, over the MAP paint chips,  the main Spitfire wing is Xtracrylix Sky,  and the Hurricane wing has various test patches, the wing in the right shows near white and the effect of adding small amount of blue and yellow.  the left wing shows more intense shades. 

The right Spitfir wingtip has 3 shades, note the middle blob is pretty close the Sky Blue chip under it. 

 

50620221 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

Now VY-R look very pale,  but the filter/film used has washed out the roundel blue,  so if this is a mix, it maybe fairly blue in hue,  so my pick is the mix on both of the Spitfire wing tips, a distinct 'duck egg blue-green' 

And I like the colour  

Funnily enough it also resembles my memory of what Humbrol 23 looked like....

 

Pure supposition, and not very scientific,  but the above was just to demonstrate how easy it to make a range of colours with available paint that then also could "match" things like Sky Blue, Eau De Nil, and other such postulated paints,  which due to the things like Xtradecal and poor profiles have become 'fact'  but not how easy it is to make a range of at the same time similar but quite different colours with small  changes in paint rations, as was also observed with mixed grey, and that's just two colours... 

 

And a story, a while back at The Aviation Bookshop, on one of their sale weekends, I got chatting to a chap looking at the models, and in the course of this Hurricanes came up, and he said he'd been involved in crash digs, and how he'd been in the team that dug up the first hurricane lost in the BoB, 

P3359, http://www.bbm.org.uk/airmen/Clenshaw.htm

 

Anyway, as a modeller colours came up, and he said, looking at the wall of kits boxes,  "Sky is like this",  points to box with Skyish colour, but the belly panel of P3359 was more like this, points to a much more turquoise shade (and AZ box maybe) , the point here the the chap had seen real parts, of known Hurricane, and mentioned and could give an idea of how the shade varied from standard Sky,  benefits of being a modeller...  

 

Now, a light turquoise is not really like any of the "substitute" colours,  but is very easily possible from an infield mix.

 

He wasn't really friendly, but maybe that is just the world of poor social skills, so I didn't talk a lot more, which I regretted. (plus the bookshop is a completely and utterly distracting,  something like 2000 aircraft books and a wall of interesting kits....)  but at another sale weekend a year or two late I saw him again, and asked some more, the belly panel is in a private collection though. 

 

If this is of interest,  I suggest having a go an my experiment above,  just start with white, an add a little of each colour to change the shade, and brush out, and it does not take much (see the brush outs)

 I found the colours also dried darker,  but this is with tiny amount of modern acrylic.

While I'm typing, I'm wondering how the now colour was specified, is there a lost of of how to make a 'Sky' mix with existing common paint perhaps, Sky was already around as Cotton's Camotint,  so did they send out chips...

 

I should say I was not trying to actually match Sky, just experimenting with a what colours occured.   I'll have to see if I can 'match' Sky later.

 

 

Anyway, back the the model.

I wiped it with IPA, and then took it outside and gave it  coat of Halfords grey primer,  and then sketched on the camo pattern.

50620223 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

Since then it's had an initial coat, though I'm thinking I should have just done the uppers Dark Earth and then added the Dark Green disruptive....  not sure if worth a photo.

 

Anyway, I'll endeavour to get this done by the 31st,  which is possible, as daughter is off at grans for a week,  and my catarrh is finally going, so I'm not feeling so apathetic.  I hate catarrh.    

On 15/10/2020 at 22:18, Smithy said:

A friend of mine Søren wrote a self published book on Zulu Lewis and he managed to obtain high quality copies of the photos of R when Lewis was tasked to use the aircraft for the benefit of the press visit. I'll check with Søren and if he doesn't mind I'll scan the photos from his book and send them to you.

cheers Tim,  though the Flickr links do enlarge a lot,  you might want to see how they compare, I mean I don't want you to go to the botehr of scanning when what I have available will do for reference

But  If there is any info on colours though....   

 

cheers

T

 

 

[Smithy]

4 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Has it really been 9 day, my doesn't time fly when you have catarrh....  

 

I have been trying to get some work done on the IIA conversion,  stalled when I realised that Airfix have again scaled up a 72 problem to 48th (the seat is too high and too narrow) and other such faffing around...  not before I'd made up the seat, added the indent in the bottom, thinned the sides and added an etch harness....  I've put  fair amount of work into the IIa and I don't just want to try to bash it out against a deadline...and the ccokpit seems a bit skimpy after having done the 72nd Arma one with the etch!

 

Meanwhile, the subject of this thread should be do-able, as it's now ready for paint, 

 

So, I pondered on VY-R, and the in field repaint of the undersides.

 

Now, Sky and it's hues have been much debated,  personally I think the use of substitute paint is less common occurrence than a field mix,  which is what happened with the introduction of Ocean Grey in 1941, when a mixed grey was recommended of 7 parts Medium Sea Grey to 1 part Night.

In a thread ages ago (I'll edit in if I can find it)  @Nick Millman noted the pigments in Sky were Prussian Blue and Yellow Ochre.

Thre was a thread or article which talked about a 1940 mix, and how they started running out of the tint colours.  (another one to find)

 

Anyway,  as an experiment I got some Vallejo Prussian Blue and Yellow,  as RAF bases would have had White, (for the B/W undersides, and Roundel Blue and Yellow.

And added small amounts ....

In the image below, over the MAP paint chips,  the main Spitfire wing is Xtracrylix Sky,  and the Hurricane wing has various test patches, the wing in the right shows near white and the effect of adding small amount of blue and yellow.  the left wing shows more intense shades. 

The right Spitfir wingtip has 3 shades, note the middle blob is pretty close the Sky Blue chip under it. 

 

50620221 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

Now VY-R look very pale,  but the filter/film used has washed out the roundel blue,  so if this is a mix, it maybe fairly blue in hue,  so my pick is the mix on both of the Spitfire wing tips, a distinct 'duck egg blue-green' 

And I like the colour  

Funnily enough it also resembles my memory of what Humbrol 23 looked like....

 

Pure supposition, and not very scientific,  but the above was just to demonstrate how easy it to make a range of colours with available paint that then also could "match" things like Sky Blue, Eau De Nil, and other such postulated paints,  which due to the things like Xtradecal and poor profiles have become 'fact'  but not how easy it is to make a range of at the same time similar but quite different colours with small  changes in paint rations, as was also observed with mixed grey, and that's just two colours... 

 

And a story, a while back at The Aviation Bookshop, on one of their sale weekends, I got chatting to a chap looking at the models, and in the course of this Hurricanes came up, and he said he'd been involved in crash digs, and how he'd been in the team that dug up the first hurricane lost in the BoB, 

P3359, http://www.bbm.org.uk/airmen/Clenshaw.htm

 

Anyway, as a modeller colours came up, and he said, looking at the wall of kits boxes,  "Sky is like this",  points to box with Skyish colour, but the belly panel of P3359 was more like this, points to a much more turquoise shade (and AZ box maybe) , the point here the the chap had seen real parts, of known Hurricane, and mentioned and could give an idea of how the shade varied from standard Sky,  benefits of being a modeller...  

 

Now, a light turquoise is not really like any of the "substitute" colours,  but is very easily possible from an infield mix.

 

He wasn't really friendly, but maybe that is just the world of poor social skills, so I didn't talk a lot more, which I regretted. (plus the bookshop is a completely and utterly distracting,  something like 2000 aircraft books and a wall of interesting kits....)  but at another sale weekend a year or two late I saw him again, and asked some more, the belly panel is in a private collection though. 

 

If this is of interest,  I suggest having a go an my experiment above,  just start with white, an add a little of each colour to change the shade, and brush out, and it does not take much (see the brush outs)

 I found the colours also dried darker,  but this is with tiny amount of modern acrylic.

While I'm typing, I'm wondering how the now colour was specified, is there a lost of of how to make a 'Sky' mix with existing common paint perhaps, Sky was already around as Cotton's Camotint,  so did they send out chips...

 

I should say I was not trying to actually match Sky, just experimenting with a what colours occured.   I'll have to see if I can 'match' Sky later.

 

 

Anyway, back the the model.

I wiped it with IPA, and then took it outside and gave it  coat of Halfords grey primer,  and then sketched on the camo pattern.

50620223 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

Since then it's had an initial coat, though I'm thinking I should have just done the uppers Dark Earth and then added the Dark Green disruptive....  not sure if worth a photo.

 

Anyway, I'll endeavour to get this done by the 31st,  which is possible, as daughter is off at grans for a week,  and my catarrh is finally going, so I'm not feeling so apathetic.  I hate catarrh.    

cheers Tim,  though the Flickr links do enlarge a lot,  you might want to see how they compare, I mean I don't want you to go to the botehr of scanning when what I have available will do for reference

But  If there is any info on colours though....   

 

cheers

T

 

 

Sorry Troy, I'd completely forgotten to scan those photos for you - thanks for reminding me! I'm been very busy with work and it totally slipped my mind.

 

BTW I think you might very well be onto something with the mixing stock paint to make Sky "approximations". Paul Lucas in his Battle for Britain booklet (which is excellent) does show that there were differing shades of Sky but Paul seems to approach it from the angle that they'd try and obtain another existing colour which was close to Sky in the correct spec, when you make an excellent and compelling point that mixing stock colours with your experiments. Those differing ratios that you have used to experiment pretty much cover everything from Sky Blue to Eau-de-Nil and everything in between.

 

You've pretty much hit every colour that gets touted around for Sky substitutes with those simple mixes. Probably needs more exploration but I think you might be onto something quite important there, and an angle I haven't seen practically experimented upon. Well done Troy!

[Johnson]

Sorry to hear you're suffering! Great post about underside colours. Those MAP paint chips look so useful, I wish someone would produce more.

 

7 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

I've put  fair amount of work into the IIa and I don't just want to try to bash it out against a deadline...

 

Quite agree with that sentiment. I feel the same about the 1/24 Spitfire I'm slowly putting together, though I regret that I won't finish anything in the BoB GB and I'd been looking forward to it for ages.

 

Your Hurricane is coming along nicely. I've just bought the new Wingleader Hurricane book, still unwrapped in the hall, something to enjoy over a cuppa later.

[Troy Smith]

On 24/10/2020 at 10:50, Johnson said:

I've just bought the new Wingleader Hurricane book, still unwrapped in the hall, something to enjoy over a cuppa later.

A definite future purchase. The pdf sampler was very impressive.

 

On 24/10/2020 at 07:28, Smithy said:

I think you might very well be onto something with the mixing stock paint to make Sky "approximations"

Thanks, it has been  an interesting excercise, well, this is what I went for, came out bluer than i expected.   

50620225 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

but this is just an initial coat.  the Vallejo covers really well over the Halfords grey primer though.

 

The uppers, well,  I foolishly did the pattern, rather than using Dark Earth, and then filling in,  anyway, I then brushed another two thin coats of Vallejo English Uniform over the whole lot, the AK Dark Green still 'grinned' through

 Brush out of the AK RAF set seemed good, but the Dark Green was a bit too dark, and the Dark Earth a bit too 'milk chocolate'  

50620224 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

 

But I have found a new Vallejo colour that makes a good Dark Green,  first coat now on....  more later

[Smithy]

On 10/26/2020 at 10:08 PM, Troy Smith said:

came out bluer than i expected.   

 

Hi Troy,

 

If you haven't got Paul Lucas' "Battle for Britain" booklet, one of the most fascinating things about it is how he demonstrated from surviving aircraft parts that there were various shades of Sky used. I don't entirely agree with all his ideas that these were other specific paints obtained by the RAF. The period we are talking about was very hectic, the AM even sent a missive out on the introduction of Sky that White and Night undersides could be used by squadrons without access to the the new Sky. However necessity breeds innovation, and there had already been attempts to use improvised "sky" coloured undersides in France, most famously Paul Richey's "G".

 

I really do think you might be onto something with your idea about the mixes of existing to specification paints, and especially roundel blue and yellow. Your mixes really do mimic many of the colours that seem to have been used before Sky was universally available.

 

I think it might be worth starting a topic on this in the WWII Aircraft section.

[ModelingEdmontonian]

On 10/26/2020 at 3:08 PM, Troy Smith said:

A definite future purchase. The pdf sampler was very impressive.

 

Thanks, it has been  an interesting excercise, well, this is what I went for, came out bluer than i expected.   

50620225 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

but this is just an initial coat.  the Vallejo covers really well over the Halfords grey primer though.

 

The uppers, well,  I foolishly did the pattern, rather than using Dark Earth, and then filling in,  anyway, I then brushed another two thin coats of Vallejo English Uniform over the whole lot, the AK Dark Green still 'grinned' through

 Brush out of the AK RAF set seemed good, but the Dark Green was a bit too dark, and the Dark Earth a bit too 'milk chocolate'  

50620224 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

 

But I have found a new Vallejo colour that makes a good Dark Green,  first coat now on....  more later

Don't leave us hanging, @Troy Smith! Tell me I missed this in RFI?

[Troy Smith]

4 hours ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

Don't leave us hanging, @Troy Smith! Tell me I missed this in RFI?

No, I missed getting it done for the GB finish, and then stopped,  I had given it another coat of green and added the exhaust glare shields, but it sits like that in chaos of the desk, a place I'm rarely at right now,  so actual modelling has not been happening for some time.   

I though these threads locked after a certain date so useful to know I could pick up and finish this off, though I'd need to spend quite a while tidying up first, not something I enjoy and tend to put off.....   

Dumb this is, once I get going I really enjoy myself,  just getting going....  Oh, and it's then very easy to find 3 hours has gone by and your hungry and have not done various domestic chores......    

[ModelingEdmontonian]

5 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

No, I missed getting it done for the GB finish, and then stopped,  I had given it another coat of green and added the exhaust glare shields, but it sits like that in chaos of the desk, a place I'm rarely at right now,  so actual modelling has not been happening for some time.   

I though these threads locked after a certain date so useful to know I could pick up and finish this off, though I'd need to spend quite a while tidying up first, not something I enjoy and tend to put off.....   

Dumb this is, once I get going I really enjoy myself,  just getting going....  Oh, and it's then very easy to find 3 hours has gone by and your hungry and have not done various domestic chores......    

Well all fair, but if it ever progresses save me a seat! I'm learning lots from you!

[manuel]

I have two questions it seems the hurricane it's standing for alert why the left panel is open? and the upper wing is tripped idem for the other pict ?

 

?
Some ideas?

Edited December 5, 2023 by manuel
adding pict

[Graham Boak]

Not an alert, but a photo call.  The aircraft has been turned around in between shots.  The pilot is posed.  The aircraft is probably available because it is waiting for a part, and the fitter has bicycled off to the stores.

 

The peeled paint is a somewhat extreme example of a problem with at least one batch of Gloster-built aircraft.  Note  that in the top picture the upper nose ring appears to be an unpainted replacement yet it looks different on the lower example.  Possibly a thin film of oil from the Rotol prop?   Typical Hurricane oil streak extending back and onto the wheel doors.  In the top picture there is something dangling from the port wheel well - could it be the cord for the chock?

 

That's an unusually high position for the anti-glare shield.  Is this an early night fighter?  Is this VY.K?

[manuel]

Thank you for the explanation.