Lancaster XY-M NG354 186 Sqn help

[Peter Roberts]

 

I came across this photo of Lancaster NG354, coded XY-M with 186 Squadron. Can anyone help me with:

 

1. the band on the tail above the fin flash - ? colour, reason for this?

2. the strange patch in front of the dorsal turret - almost looks like a funny shape gas patch.

3. flaps in a slightly lowered position - ?

4. what Mark Lancaster was this - a Mk III? (looks like a later prop)

5. A good shot of the full nose scoreboard and/or the nose (perhaps a long shot)

 

With thanks

 

PR

Edited September 28, 2020 by Peter Roberts

[Troy Smith]

22 minutes ago, Peter Roberts said:

. the band on the tail above the fin flash - ? colour, reason for this?

Tail markings seen late war for daylight use,  bands like this sometimes for lead bombers with gee sets IIRC.

186 was formed late, autumn 44,  as a bomber sq, they had been a Hurricane unit in early 44.

22 minutes ago, Peter Roberts said:

2. the strange patch in front of the dorsal turret - almost looks like a funny shape gas patch.

3. flaps in a slightly lowered position - ?

Occasionally seen. 

22 minutes ago, Peter Roberts said:

4. what Mark Lancaster was this - a Mk III? (looks like a later prop)

Prop type has nothing to do mark number, the difference between a Mk.I and a Mk.III is engines, Mk.I are Rolls Royce made, Mk.III are US made Packard, they were not interchangeable, same thing with Spitfire IX and XVI. The Packard engines were popular as they had really high quality tool kits apparently.

The serial tells you the mark.

Air Britain has NG354 as  Mk.I,  186/626, SOC 14.12.44

22 minutes ago, Peter Roberts said:

5. A good shot of the full nose scoreboard and/or the nose (perhaps a long

 

 

HTH

T

[Peter Roberts]

Thank you Troy. Much appreciated!  

 

A couple of follow up questions please.

 

1. Colour of the fin flash? Off White or Grey (MSG?)? It looks a bit too pale for yellow (?)

 

2. That is a gas patch in front of the turret?

 

(4. - Thank you 🙏 )

 

Still hopeful of a good shot of the nose - there is one angular shot but it is slightly obscured by the crew sitting on the wing.

 

PR

 

 

 

 

[ClaudioN]

2 hours ago, Peter Roberts said:

1. Colour of the fin flash? Off White or Grey (MSG?)? It looks a bit too pale for yellow (?)

IIRC, aircraft fitted with the GEE-H navigation aid had two horizontal yellow bars painted on the outer face of the fins as standard.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

By the comments in the follow up post I assume these are known,
http://www.aircrewremembered.com/clarson-jeff.html
http://www.aircrewremembered.com/mcpherson-gerald.html

 

186 Squadron existed for a time post WWI, reformed at Drem on 27 April 1943, to Ayr on 3 August, Tain on 7 January 1944, Lympne 1 March 1944, renumbered 130 squadron on 5 April.  No aircraft on strength until Hurricane IV arrived in August 1943, they were removed in January 1944, Typhoons arrived in November 1943, removed in February 1944, replaced by Spitfire V.

 

186 Squadron reformed 1 October 1944 at Tuddenham, nucleus from C flight 90 Squadron, moved to Stradishall 17 December 1944, disbanded 17 July 1945, code letters XY used by A and B flights, AP by C flight.  Equipped with Lancaster I and III.

 

NG354 Lancaster mark I, built by Armstrong Whitworth, Taken on Charge 25 November 1944, most of the production run fitted with Merlin 24, to 186 Squadron November 1944, 626 Squadron July 1945, 46 MU October 1945, Struck Off Charge 14 December 1946.  As Troy noted the engines decide the mark, UK built were mark I, US built mark III, with the US engines apparently coming with their own tool kit as standard.  There are reports of some Lancasters flying with a mix of UK and US built engines.

 

Band(s) on tail is a leader marking for G-H (or Gee-H) a bomb aiming aid used mostly by 3 Group in Bomber Command, leaders were fitted with the set, the rest of the formation bombed when the leader did.  Page 105 of Avro Lancaster by Harry Holmes has a graphic of the tail codes employed but misses 186 squadron.  If it is like 15, 75, 90, 149, 195, 218 and 622 squadrons it was a pair of horizontal yellow stripes. Grey was not used as a G-H marker paint, nor off white.  There were a variety of markings including painting the entire vertical surface yellow (101 and 166 squadrons), Indian/Brick Red (106 squadron) or white (463 Squadron)

 

No idea on the patch on the fuselage, given the state of some of the paintwork it may be a touch up in progress or gone wrong.

[Peter Roberts]

Thank you for the information Claudio and Geoff - I wouldn't have guessed yellow, just shows the problem of interpreting B/W photos!

 

Thanks for the links Geoff, yes, seen those. I have a 1/72 scale Airfix Lancaster and thought this might make a bit of a different subject so the information is appreciated. I'll see if I can find any other photos of 186 Sqn Lancs; if not two yellow tail bands may be the go.

 

It looks like the crew flew 39 sorties so I might have to get creative with the bomb log. Hard to see if there was any nose art, but doesn't seem to be.

 

Appreciate the clarification gentlemen.

 

[Sky dancer]

IIRC 186 Squadron was part of 3 Group, so the markings should be two yellow bands. Here is a useful resource:-

 

http://www.lancaster-archive.com/lanc_gh_3 gp.htm

 

Sadly, I think the gentleman who ran this website stopped updating it a few years ago - 186 Sqn is not listed.

 

The situation with Lancaster tail markings is not as simple as it appears; some were not G-H markings, but leader markings for daylight raids.

 

This resource, from the same source, shows the vast majority and is unlikely to be bettered:-

 

http://www.lancaster-archive.com/lanc_gh-tail_markings.htm

 

Very occasionally some photos of Lancaster crash sites appear on eBay or Facebook which show markings not previously illustrated...

 

HTH!

[Seahawk]

12 hours ago, Peter Roberts said:

2. the strange patch in front of the dorsal turret - almost looks like a funny shape gas patch.

Mark Postletwaite's Lancaster Squadrons in Focus (Red Kite, 2012) has a photo on p.79 of "C" of 186 Sq.  The caption identifies it "by a process of elimination" as PB139 XY-C though neither code nor serial is visible.  It has a similarly shaped pattern in an identical position forward of the dorsal turret: it's described as a "clover leaf gas detection patch".  The same aircraft was named The Commando: there's a small murky photo of the nose art plus the bomb tally of 70 missions and 3 fighters.  Needle props.  Fins out of shot.

[Dan_RAFBC]

There are multiple Lancasters with the same patch on this page: http://www.lancaster-archive.com/lanc_gh_3 gp.htm

[fishplanebeer]

Just to add to much of what has already been said that NG354 was built as part of an order for 400 BI Lancs by Armstrong Whitworth which were delivered between July 1944 and February 1945. Following service with 186 squadron it subsequently served with 626 around July 1945 before finally being struck off charge on 14th December 1946.

 

As far as the vertical tail band(s) is concerned all my references show them as being yellow regardless of what they were intended to signify or how many were applied so a safe bet would be to go with this as the correct colour.

 

Not sure about the flap position as there would be no need to deploy them whilst on terra firma so perhaps just a wee bit of slack in the system accounts for the slight drop here? There is a pic on page 32 of Lancaster At War by Garbett & Goulding which shows a Lanc with the flaps slightly lowered whilst parked, plus pics on pages 33, 37 and 39 where they seem to be in a more fully deployed state, so pretty much anything goes I suspect.

 

Also worth noting, along with the paddle blade props and covered side windows, is the enlarged astrodome that was a feature of later produced Lancs. I can't recall off hand if the Airfix kit provides the larger or smaller astrodome  so you will need to check this one out.

 

Hope this helps

 

Colin.

[Peter Roberts]

Thanks guys - VERY helpful info and great links.

[Peter Roberts]

Found this with a bit more searching - 186 Squadron

 

 

The Lancaster in the back ground - XY-(?) - can just be made out to have two bands on the tail, as per the info posted above. Nice work guys! Reading accounts from several 186 Squadron crew the Squadron undertook several daylight raids.

 

 

 

[Peter Roberts]

5 hours ago, fishplanebeer said:

 

Also worth noting, along with the paddle blade props and covered side windows, is the enlarged astrodome that was a feature of later produced Lancs. I can't recall off hand if the Airfix kit provides the larger or smaller astrodome  so you will need to check this one out.

 

Hope this helps

 

Colin.

 

Am I right in thinking that the fuselage windows were completely omitted on later Lancasters? While hard to see on a black background, it does look like there are no windows on this Lancaster.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Peter Roberts

[Troy Smith]

50 minutes ago, Peter Roberts said:

 

Am I right in thinking that the fuselage windows were completely omitted on later Lancasters? While hard to see on a black background, it does look like there are no windows on this Lancaster.

Yes. There was a discussion here as to when this occurred,  no time to search it up right now, but I think there was a idea when it happened.

A least the Americans had the sense to use block numbers,  which makes these changes much easier to track.... but where the fun it that

[Peter Roberts]

Thanks Troy - I'll have a search. (Hard to give your post a 'chuckle' and 'thank you' emoji. it did give me a chuckle though!  )

 

Edit: Found this

 

 

Looks like NO windows on this Lancaster.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Peter Roberts