Werdna Posted September 27, 2020 Share Posted September 27, 2020 Spent a very enjoyable yesterday afternoon at York Air Museum - long way from home, but that's another story. Anyway, whilst there, I was fascinated to read about a Ju 88 which attacked the airfield - or more specifically, Halifax bombers returning to the airfield - on the night of 3/4 March 1945, as part of 'Operation Gisela'. The Ju 88 in question subsequently crashed into a nearby farmhouse (tragically killing the occupants of the farmhouse as well as the Ju 88's crew), after either being hit by AA fire, or clipping treetops while making a turn for another pass over the airfield - opinions vary. The crash was reputedly the last example of a Luftwaffe a/c crashing on British soil before the war ended. Details of the attack and subsequent memorial are fairly easy to come by, but precise details of the aircraft seem less clear. I'd been thinking about making a Ju 88 for a while, but had been struggling for a 'subject' - until now. The 88 in question appears to have been a G-6 from 13/NJG 3, code D5+AX (AE has also been suggested). Opinions on the WNr also seem to differ. I've only had limited time to look into this, but if anyone has further info, or any pointers on more definitive info on the 88, including the colours and codes it might have been wearing, I'd be happy to hear it. thanks in advance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafetyDad Posted September 27, 2020 Share Posted September 27, 2020 Hello again Werdna This from Mackay R. & Parry S. (2011) The Last Blitz - Operation Steinbock Red Kite Walton on Thames D5 (small) +AX (both black) fom 7/NJG3 Wk Nr 6215868 (sic) (My note - Wk Nr has to be incorrect - these numbers were 6 digits, not 7). Crashed after hitting a tree 01.51 Elvington 4/3/1945 'Undersurface Light Blue, mottled with white, continuing up the sides of fuselage and fin. Upper surface dark blue mottled with grey and white' . (I would interpret that as standard 74/75/76 Nightfighter camo for the period). Jumo 213A-1 engines with VS111 wooden propellers Four fixed MG151/20 in belly fairing plus two MG151/20 oblique upward firing Fug 25A, Fug350 ZB Naxos and SN2 tail warning fitted (doesn't say if the tail warning was below the rudder, mounted on the mid-fin or carried above the fin. Other NG3 machines I have pictures of carried the tail warning antennae beneath the rudder). Presumably the aircraft also carried SN-2 on the nose? Sadly all 4 crew killed Johann Dreher, Hugo Boker, Gustav Schmitz and Martin Bechter HTH SD 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werdna Posted September 27, 2020 Author Share Posted September 27, 2020 Thanks again SD.. I think the other WNr suggested for this a/c was 620028, which at least is a 6-digit number. Difficult to know for certain, I guess. Presumably there is an RAF crash report from the time, wonder if that's available anywhere.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werdna Posted September 27, 2020 Author Share Posted September 27, 2020 53 minutes ago, SafetyDad said: Presumably the aircraft also carried SN-2 on the nose? What's the likelihood of it carrying the 'Berlin' FuG 240..? As far as I can tell, these were fitted to a small number of late-war G-6s... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafetyDad Posted September 27, 2020 Share Posted September 27, 2020 14 minutes ago, Werdna said: Thanks again SD.. I think the other WNr suggested for this a/c was 620028, which at least is a 6-digit number. Difficult to know for certain, I guess. Presumably there is an RAF crash report from the time, wonder if that's available anywhere.. Thanks Yes, the source for your Wk Nr seems to be here http://www.gyges.dk/night_fighters_odds_and_ends.htm Its the LEMB Ju88G database. Interestingly the LEMB database also includes 621588 and 621568, confirming these are not this aircraft. That leaves 621868 as the other option. However it also suggests the AX codes for this aircraft. The book I referred to above draws upon the reports of the RAF Air Intelligence Dept AI2K - so the details I quote have presumably come from these reports. Anyone know more? SD 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafetyDad Posted September 27, 2020 Share Posted September 27, 2020 Just now, Werdna said: What's the likelihood of it carrying the 'Berlin' FuG 240..? As far as I can tell, these were fitted to a small number of late-war G-6s... Sadly very unlikely. Only 10 were fitted to Ju88Gs and photos of 3 or 4 of these are in the public domain. They seem to have been flown by NJG4 from the pictures I have. Checking the LEMB database now... SD 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafetyDad Posted September 27, 2020 Share Posted September 27, 2020 Yes, there's 2 aircraft from NJG4 and 1 from NJG5 confirmed as carrying 'Berlin' centimetric radar on the database. I would tentatively suggest that these Berlin equipped aircraft might be grouped together on the same unit to increase maintenance efficiency? Just my 2 pence SD 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werdna Posted September 27, 2020 Author Share Posted September 27, 2020 Agreed, it looks like D5+AX would have been a 'standard' SN-2 equipped a/c. I did find a pic which purported to be of the crash site, but the wreckage looks such a mess that it would be impossible to discern much from it. From a kit perspective, is the Dragon G-6 still the best option in 1/48 - or am I missing a newer alternative? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafetyDad Posted September 27, 2020 Share Posted September 27, 2020 1 minute ago, Werdna said: Agreed, it looks like D5+AX would have been a 'standard' SN-2 equipped a/c. From a kit perspective, is the Dragon G-6 still the best option in 1/48 - or am I missing a newer alternative? As far as I know the Dragon kit is still the best option in 1/48. SD 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nimrod54 Posted September 27, 2020 Share Posted September 27, 2020 Hi Werdna, I have found this link to the Elvington Ju. 88. I am not sure as to the accuracy of the source but it may give some further pointers. HTH Junkers Ju.88G-6 D5+AX 04-Mar-1945 John 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafetyDad Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 On balance, with 2 authoritative sources giving 620028 as the Wk Nr, I would go with that. The Staffel letter 'X' also suggests 13./NJG 3 rather than 7 (although aircraft could, and did, move between units). It's not that common to see letters at the end of the alphabet being used as Staffel codes, but at this time in the war many units had (nominally at least) been expanded to 4 Staffeln within a Gruppe, as opposed to 3. HTH SD BTW, if you're looking for a Dragon Ju88G6, please PM me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niknak Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 (edited) I built this aircraft in 2017. I used the revell 1/72 c-6 and converted it. It was reported the crew survived the crash (clipping a tree) and were killed by members of the French aircrew from Evington airfield. The codes were d5 + AX. I went for the w. Nr 621586. Sn2 radar airials, tail warning airial and belly gun pack. The post should still be still in the rfi section. Nick Edited October 2, 2020 by Niknak 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werdna Posted October 1, 2020 Author Share Posted October 1, 2020 3 hours ago, Niknak said: I built this aircraft in 2017. I used the revell 1/72 c-6 and converted it. It was reported the crew survived the crash (clipping a tree) and were killed by members of the French aircrew from Evington airfield. The codes were d5 + AX. I went for the w. Nr 621586. Sn2 radar airials, tail warning airial and belly gun pack. The post should still be still in the rfi section. Nick Thanks Nick, that's really useful. Did you have a particular reference for the camo, or just patterns from other similar a/c? Having seen a pic which purports to be of the D5+AX crash site (can't find it again at the moment) I would struggle to imagine how anyone could have survived it. I've also read separately that the 88's crew were not easily identifiable due to the severity of the impact. On that basis, I would question the veracity of the report you mention. But, as ever, who knows... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AWFK10 Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 There's a photo here of the damage to the farmhouse and some more information here, including a photo of Hptmn Dreher. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niknak Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, Werdna said: Thanks Nick, that's really useful. Did you have a particular reference for the camo, or just patterns from other similar a/c? Having seen a pic which purports to be of the D5+AX crash site (can't find it again at the moment) I would struggle to imagine how anyone could have survived it. I've also read separately that the 88's crew were not easily identifiable due to the severity of the impact. On that basis, I would question the veracity of the report you mention. But, as ever, who knows... Hi Werdna, the comouflage is based on pictures of other aircraft of the same w.nr. block.i agree about the report it also said the raf covered it up too.(www.key.aero. last luftwaffe crash in the uk)I think i googled hptm Derher and losses of njg.3 to find out more infomation about the crash and aircraft. there is an artical in the yorkshire post about the crash.D5+ax was reported to be turning to attack a vehicle on the outer track of the airfield which he miss took as an aircraft when they hit the tree. The w.nr 621586 is given on the luftwaffe losses.co website. These should come up if you google hptm Derher evelington 1945.Nick Edited October 2, 2020 by Niknak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafetyDad Posted October 3, 2020 Share Posted October 3, 2020 On 01/10/2020 at 22:21, AWFK10 said: There's a photo here of the damage to the farmhouse and some more information here, including a photo of Hptmn Dreher. Notice that the link to The Yorkshire Aircraft site shows a plaque giving the Wk Nr. as 627586. Were I building this I think I would go with that SD However see post below casting doubt on this Wk Nr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werdna Posted October 3, 2020 Author Share Posted October 3, 2020 9 minutes ago, SafetyDad said: Notice that the link to The Yorkshire Aircraft site shows a plaque giving the Wk Nr. as 627586. Were I building this I think I would go with that SD The plaque also suggests the 88 was a 'C' though, whereas everywhere else seems to suggest a 'G'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SafetyDad Posted October 3, 2020 Share Posted October 3, 2020 25 minutes ago, Werdna said: The plaque also suggests the 88 was a 'C' though, whereas everywhere else seems to suggest a 'G'. Good point There's another problem as well... Checking the LEMB Ju88G database here: http://www.gyges.dk/night_fighters_odds_and_ends.htm this highest recorded Wk Nr. for the Ju88G-6 is given as 623431. This was one of a batch of 6 or 7 factory fresh machines captured at Langensalza. These had never been issued to a unit and seem to represent the very last confirmed production airframes recorded. However that number is well short of the 627... range SD 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werdna Posted October 3, 2020 Author Share Posted October 3, 2020 Agreed - that seems a logical conclusion. I think for the time being I may stick with the info on LEMB. There's broad agreement on D5+AX (which seems pretty well settled) and balance of probability is leaning towards 620028 at the moment... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niknak Posted October 3, 2020 Share Posted October 3, 2020 6 hours ago, SafetyDad said: Good point There's another problem as well... Checking the LEMB Ju88G database here: http://www.gyges.dk/night_fighters_odds_and_ends.htm this highest recorded Wk Nr. for the Ju88G-6 is given as 623431. This was one of a batch of 6 or 7 factory fresh machines captured at Langensalza. These had never been issued to a unit and seem to represent the very last confirmed production airframes recorded. However that number is well short of the 627... range SD There is a slight issue with the ju 88 g list at the link above.d5 + ax is listed twice at w.nr 620028 and also if you scroll down w.nr 621586. With the same infomation .so you'll pay your money and make your choice as my granddad would say. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wm Blecky Posted October 3, 2020 Share Posted October 3, 2020 On 10/1/2020 at 10:36 AM, Niknak said: I built this aircraft in 2017. I used the revell 1/72 c-6 and converted it. It was reported the crew survived the crash (clipping a tree) and were killed by members of the French aircrew from Evington airfield. The codes were d5 + AX. I went for the w. Nr 621586. Sn2 radar airials, tail warning airial and belly gun pack. The post should still be still in the rfi section. Nick A little off the topic at hand, but do you have a build thread of your 88? What did you do to convert the Revell 88C kit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niknak Posted October 3, 2020 Share Posted October 3, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Wm Blecky said: A little off the topic at hand, but do you have a build thread of your 88? What did you do to convert the Revell 88C kit? Hi Wm Blecky, unfortunately I did not do a build thread for this ju 88, I used the following from aimsmodels.co.uk. Engines, belly gun pack, tail horizontal & tail fin. Sn2 radar bases, tail, wheels are true details, propellers are quickboost vs 11 propellers & spinners, obleck mg 151's,marsters Sn2 aireals, the exhausts are brass tubes with strips of plastic around them. The main airframe of the ju 88 is basically the same for all marks except the h, some panel lines will need be filled and rescribed in different places, I added the radar unit to the cockpit. the tail units were replaced with aims units, as we're the engines, the aims parts designed for the amt kits. So will need built up to fit the revell airframe, especial the engines, and gun pack. I think I removed the belly gun pack from the aims lower fuselage insert and grafted it onto the revell belly insert. If I was going to build this again, I would use the jumo's from the hasegawa g as these should fit the revell kit better, I have used the hasegawa bwm's to build this g-1. You can also use the revell 1/72 ju 88 to build a s-1 as well. Nick Edited October 3, 2020 by Niknak 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wm Blecky Posted October 4, 2020 Share Posted October 4, 2020 Thanks Ninak. A fantastic job on your 88s. 👍 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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