Civilian S-51 Dragonfly - internal details?

[bootneck]

I am looking for details to build a Sikorsky S-51or Westland WS-51 Dragonfly.  The kits available appear to be the military Dragonfly HC.2 or HR.3, with the squared rear fuselage and spotlight front; however, I wish to build the civilian version with the rounded rear.  Can anyone provide details of the civilian Dragonfly and especially the internal seating arrangements?

I have been looking for a book on the subject, plus loads of online searches, but have been unsuccessful so far.

cheers,

Mike

[Lazy8]

Short answer seems to be that there is no short answer.

Photos in the BA Archive show BEA aircraft with nothing at all behind the pilot (providing flood relief in Holland or building a dam in Wales), with a webbing contraption floor-to-ceiling just behind the pilot to stop cargo flying about too much, and with one or two simple seats (upholstered apparently in either company maroon leather with cream piping, or a mid-grey). The two would be side-by-side across the rear of the cabin, obviously.  Nothing shows the interior clearly, and I could easily be convinced that no two photos show the same configuration.  When carrying passengers, the two rear 'D' shaped windows had curtains, and there's a net for hand bags across the ceiling between the windows just behind the door.  So far as I'm aware, there are no drawings available.

[The Tomohawk Kid]

What scale ?

 

The LF 72 kit contains part options to build both the military and civil versions, that (obviously) include the resquite fuselage variations. I have not checked (yet) to see if the exhaust and grilleage options reflect the military or civil versions - I suspect its the former. Forget the Mach 2 kit as it is neither fish nor fowl and is largely a fictious hybrid.

 

AMP have yet to release their full range of 1/72 kits but I suspect they will do both as they do in quarter scale. If 1/48 is your chosen scale, you need their 1st boxing Kit ref: 48001 H03S-1, not only is the airframe correct for the BEA machines, the glazing in this particular the kit is better than subsequent iterations of the kit - for some reason AMP changed this for their later releases.

 

Whirlybirds do nice seperate miltary and civil kits in 72 as well, but have now been overtaken by the above.

 

Strictly speaking the 4 BEA machines were S-51s, not WS-51s as they were aquired from Sikorsky and re-engined with an Alvis Leonides engines and were used as prototype/development airframes to allow Westland to build them under licence.

 

When Westland leased them to BEA they were flown by the BEA Experimental Helicopter Unit and as such the internal fit changed to suit their varied duties which ranged from the World's 1st ever Passenger service Cardiff > Wreham > Liverpool rtn to postal/cargo runs. There is a great floodlit photo of G-AJOV taking off at Peterborough on the 1st ever commercial night mail service on the 17th. Oct 1949, in the long out of print book A History of British Airways Helicopters and is Predecessors since 1947 by P. Lo Bao  - one can clearly see the cargo webbing behind the pilot (as mentioned up thread) but also there is someone in the rear part of the cabin too, which strongly suggests at least one of the pax seats was retained. Other photos in the book show the S-51 with a more traditional pax fit, again as described above.

 

Whatever you do, don't use the machine finished as G-AJOV at Cosford in the BEA livery as a reference, as that is a repainted miltary machine. The previously mentioned book is a must tho'.

 

I hope that helps.

 

Tommo.

Edited September 27, 2020 by The Tomohawk Kid

[bootneck]

Hi Tommo,

scale is 1:144 so I won't be using any kits per se.  I am just trying to identify what the seating arrangement for the passenger version was.  I see that LF models have produced a version with cushioned bench rear seat and bench seats from Ford Consuls come to mind.  After all, the door handles are from cars.

  All my manuals are military, and on those, the rear is either two individual seats, or a 3-seat tubular affair with canvass covering.  It is the detail on the civilian that I am after and I may just have to use the format shown by LF.  With regard to the manuals, and the WS-51 we have at the Helicopter Museum in WsM, there is a two-bar vertical gantry effect just behind the pilot's seat.  I am presuming that this is a structural thing for the seat, but I cannot ascertain if it is present in the civilian versions.  Perhaps it wasn't needed in those as they weren't expected to do such arduous flying.

 

I am up to speed with the BEA versions being series 1 aircraft but it is the internals of all civilian S-51/WS-51's that I am trying to get details on.  I can understand BEA stripping out the rear when they got the Royal Mail contract but before, and after, the WS-51 was a passenger helicopter.

 

Ha, yes, that Westland Dragonfly HR.5 repainted as a Westland S-51 G-AJOV is a laugh.   Coincidentally, it is the real aircraft, plus a Vickers Viking, that started me on this quest; as they flew from my local airfield - Elmdon (now Birmingham International) when my dad used to take me plane-spotting.

 

cheers,

MIke

[The Tomohawk Kid]

14 minutes ago, bootneck said:

Hi Tommo,

scale is 1:144 so I won't be using any kits per se.  I am just trying to identify what the seating arrangement for the passenger version was.  I see that LF models have produced a version with cushioned bench rear seat and bench seats from Ford Consuls come to mind.  After all, the door handles are from cars.

  All my manuals are military, and on those, the rear is either two individual seats, or a 3-seat tubular affair with canvass covering.  It is the detail on the civilian that I am after and I may just have to use the format shown by LF. 

 

cheers,

MIke

 

When they were used for scheduled pax service it was three seperate (padded) seats fit. It still would have been a cosy ride with your fellow pax. That of course does not preclude them being fitted out with a 'bench' seat for other duties.

 

I'm sure you are aware there was a dedicated heliport @ Hay Mills that serviced the Birmingingham > London route that was intially used by S-51 then latterly the S-55.

 

I doubt in 144 any one will pick you up on it anyway, go with what you feel is right.

 

Good luck and don't forget to share when you have a finished build.

 

Tommo.

 

 

Edited September 27, 2020 by The Tomohawk Kid

[bootneck]

The field is still there at Hay Mills, just behind the houses on Coventry Road.   I used to live about a mile north of there but don't remember any flying there.  There are a couple of good photo's on the web of Dragonfly's landing at that heli-port.   That's interesting, about the three padded seats in the rear, as I couldn't see enough space for that in our Dragonfly.  I wonder if the centre seat utilised part of the port and starboard tubular seats framework?

 

There was also an interesting comment, in and article I found online, which stated that later some civilian Dragonfly's had the three-bladed wooden tail rotor replaced by the two-bladed metal versions from the Westland S-55 Whirlwind.  That tempts another version to build!

cheers,

Mike

[TheBaron]

8 hours ago, bootneck said:

especially the internal seating arrangements?

Mike, there's a half-decent look around inside the civilian version from  the 2:21 mark here:

https://youtu.be/jEWGq6z_czg

along with some murkier glimpses of the interior here that might be enough to glean required details from:

https://youtu.be/TGf6V5M4ol0

Kind rgds,

Tony

[bootneck]

Thanks Tony,  that confirms the bench seat arrangement.  These films also show that some civilian WS-51's had hoists fitted.

 

cheers

 

Mike

[The Tomohawk Kid]

30 minutes ago, bootneck said:

Thanks Tony,  that confirms the bench seat arrangement.  These films also show that some civilian WS-51's had hoists fitted.

 

cheers

 

Mike

 

Just be aware this is a Westland built demonstrator of a WS-51, hence the inclusion of the winch - the interior fit would be subject to various customer options, the bench seat was one and option they chose to show off in this promo film, as such it is not necessarily represenative of a production machine. The BEA machines had three pax seats and were Sikorsky built S-51s.

 

Tommo.

Edited September 27, 2020 by The Tomohawk Kid

[bootneck]

Thanks Tommo,

 

I'm not too concerned about the type of seat, more of the layout inside.  Here is a view of the model and, as you can see, it won't actually get that much detail.

 

That doesn't stop me wanting to research and find out more though.

 

Cheers,

Mike

[The Tomohawk Kid]

Impressive. Thats is one cool S-51, I would struggle with 72, never mind 144.

 

Top banana work.

 

Now can you tell me what the interior fit of the BEA S-55 was like?

 

Tommo.

[bootneck]

Can't help you there Tommo, well not yet but I will be building one myself soon. 

Here is an earlier version, for an 848NAS Whirlwind based at Sembawang, again to 1:144 scale.

 

cheers,

 

Mike

 

 

 

 

[The Tomohawk Kid]

22 minutes ago, bootneck said:

Thanks Tommo,

 

That doesn't stop me wanting to research and find out more though.

 

Cheers,

Mike

I have been researching on and off the BEA S-51s as long as I can remember, at least 20 years - for such a significant event as the World's 1st ever passenger helicopter service there is a distinct paucity of information.

 

I have the two timetables (winter and summer) BEA published for the Cardiff > Liverpool route along with a programme for a public helicopter demonstration at Hampden Park stadium in the late '40s. The hopes that BEA held for helicopter travel across the UK was ambitious as the aforementioned programme has a map of prospective helicopter routes that criss-crossed the UK, none materialised of course. I also have  a 1st day cover for the first ever helicopter mail service. Great items but don't really tell you anything for model building purposes.

 

My very long term intention is to display these artefacts along with a 48 scale BEA machine, one day!

 

Tommo.

 

 

Edited September 27, 2020 by The Tomohawk Kid

[The Tomohawk Kid]

20 minutes ago, bootneck said:

Can't help you there Tommo, well not yet but I will be building one myself soon. 

cheers,

 

Mike

 

 

 

 

 

Mike,

 

It was meant to be a tongue in cheek comment, sorry it missed the mark.

 

I have two of the 72 scale the Revell H-19 A's (straight boom), the S&M civvy helicopter decal sheet which has the decals for the BEA(tles) 'red/white/black machine and a pair of the Whirlybirds interior conversion with BEA Peony livery decals. Interestingly, there is a note in the Whirlybirds conversion which states that they can't confirm precisely the layout or interior colours of the BEA machine despite coming with armchair like seats.

 

However, that build is way down the line at the moment so not pressing info.

 

I find this a fascinating and understated period of British aviation, using American machines to beat the Americans, but never really capitising on it.

 

Tommo.

Edited September 27, 2020 by The Tomohawk Kid