Mosquito question: Bulged Bomb Bay

[Collin]

Did KB 627 AZ-E (627 Squadron)have a bulged bomb bay?  I have those marking on Aero Master 48-552, so was wondering.

 

Cheers

Collin

[72modeler]

According to what I could find, Mosquito KB267 was a B Mk XX flown by Guy Gibson, in which he lost his life on 19 September, 1944; it was coded AZ-E. The B XX was a Canadian-built equivalent of the B Mk IV, so I don't think it had a bulged bomb bay. I could not find any evidence of a  Mossie serialed KB627- did you by any chance transpose the serial in your post? See the link below for the loss report. One of our resident Mossie mavens can most likely give you more information.

Mike

 

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/50036

 

 

Edited September 25, 2020 by 72modeler
added link corrected text

[Dave Swindell]

KB627 was a Canadian built B25 (BXX with Packard 225 Merlins) 

http://www.mossie.org/production/results.php?series=KB&returnsperpage=All&submit=Browse&mode=1

[Collin]

I'm just going off of what the AeroMaster decal sheet says.  B MKXX, KB267, AZ-E, 627 Sqd. 

 

I like the red/yellow buzz numbers...maybe throw in some lower invasion stripes on the fuselage.  

 

We all know that decals sheets are 100% accurate.  I'm just wondering if she had the bulged bays....or do I need to look around for other single-stage bulged bay markings.

 

Cheers

Collin

[Work In Progress]

1 hour ago, 72modeler said:

According to what I could find, Mosquito KB267 was a B Mk XX flown by Guy Gibson, in which he lost his life on 19 September, 1944; it was coded AX-E.

 

 

No, it wasn't AX-anything. Gibson was in a 627 Squadron aircraft, and they were definitely AZ, never AX

But you're correct that it as definitely KB267, rather than 627, and KB267  is what the decal sheet supplies, along with the AZ codes, so that was just a finger-slip by Colin in typing his post.

 

I can't say for certain one way or other on the bomb bay but near stablemate B.XX KB366 doesn't have a bulged bay so I would be very surprised if a slightly earlier example did.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Work In Progress

[stever219]

3 minutes ago, Collin said:

 

I like the red/yellow buzz numbers...maybe throw in some lower invasion stripes on the fuselage.  

Buzz numbe😳😳😳😳 Squadron code letters and aircraft identity letter .🙄

[Collin]

17 minutes ago, Work In Progress said:

No, it wasn't AX-anything. Gibson was in a 627 Squadron aircraft, and they were definitely AZ, never AX

But you're correct that it as definitely KB267, rather than 627, and KB267  is what the decal sheet supplies, along with the AZ codes, so that was just a finger-slip by Colin in typing his post.

 

I can't say for certain one way or other on the bomb bay but near stablemate B.XX KB366 doesn't have a bulged bay so I would be very surprised if a slightly earlier example did.

correct...finger slip.

 

Seems pretty bleak out there for decals to make a single-stage B series with the big belly.  

 

Collin

Edited September 25, 2020 by Collin

[72modeler]

2 hours ago, Work In Progress said:

No, it wasn't AX-anything

Yep, I realized the typo after I posted, so I have corrected the error- thanks for keeping me honest, WIP! 

Mike

[EwenS]

All the Canadian built B.XX and B.XXV left the factory with the standard bomb bay doors.

 

Due to the demand for the 4,000lb bomb bay in these aircraft it was agreed in Oct 1944 that Marshalls of Cambridge would undertake a conversion programme in Britain to give them two stage Merlin 69 engines, lying around in an MU unused, and the bulged 4,000lb bomb bay. Flight trials of the first conversion took place in Jan 1945. But with the end of the war looming it did not proceed very far, and most of those converted did not get the engine upgrade. Five B.XXV serials are given in a couple of books as having the bulged bomb bay with no mention of the engine change:- KB409, 416, 490, 561 and KB625. 627 squadron operated KB490 as AZ-Q and possibly the others.

 

In addition to those airframes there is a series of photos of KB471 taken at Boscombe Down with both the engine conversion and the bulged bomb bay. Was this the prototype conversion by Marshalls that flew in Jan 1945? The IWM photo claims it was lost in Feb 1945? Is anyone able to confirm that? The bit about the squadrons it operated with seems totally wrong. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205126652

 

Two photos of this aircraft also appear in the very old Aircam Aviation Series No 28 on the DH Mosquito which I once had in my library, and can now be found on the net here https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Modeling-References/Osprey-Aircam-Aviation-Series/28-DH-Mosquito/28-De-Havilland-Mosquito_Page_18-960

 

Refs "Mosquito" by Sharp & Bowyer & "Mosquito. The Original Multi Role Combat Aircraft" by Graham Simons, and of the course the above noted Aircam book.

 

The only other single stage bomber Mosquitos, AFAIK, were the 20 B.IV converted early in 1944 with DZ serials and used mostly by 692 squadron.

Edited September 26, 2020 by EwenS

[Crimea River]

8 hours ago, EwenS said:

In addition to those airframes there is a series of photos of KB471 taken at Boscombe Down with both the engine conversion and the bulged bomb bay. Was this the prototype conversion by Marshalls that flew in Jan 1945? The IWM photo claims it was lost in Feb 1945? Is anyone able to confirm that? 

A database that I have has KB471 SOC in January 1947.

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Information from http://www.airhistory.org.uk/dh/mosquito.html, plus delivery logs, and Bomber Command Losses books. All Mark 25, format is serial, squadron(s), details, note 627 squadron was renumbered 109 on 1 October 1945.

 

KB409 608/627/109 SOC 18.3.48 (Delivery Log TOC 20.9.44, SOC 18.3.48)
KB416 608/627 Stalled on asymmetric overshoot Woodhall Spa 3.7.45 (Delivery Log TOC 26.8.44, SOC 16.7.45) (Engine failed, unsure of undercarriage status it hit the runway too hard, 1 killed, 1 burnt, Corporal Stephen Cogger was given the George Medal for his efforts to save the crew)

 

KB490 627/109 SOC 7.11.47 (Delivery Log TOC 28.10.44, SOC 7.11.47)
KB561 627/109 Swung on landing and u/c collapsed Wickenby 25.10.45 (Delivery Log TOC 23.1.45, SOC 7.11.45)
KB625 627 Swung on take-off and u/c collapsed Woodhall Spa 5.5.45  (Delivery Log TOC 7.12.44, SOC 2.7.45) (Pilot over corrected swing on take off, sheered off undercarriage)

KB471 608/Upwood/AAEE SOC 10.1.47 (Delivery Log TOC 20.9.44, SOC 10.1.47)

 

As for IWM photograph caption, the only record of a Bomber Command Mosquito loss on 14 or 15 February 1945 is mark XIX TA402, ran out of fuel, while 428, 431 and 434 squadrons were operating Lancaster X  in 1945, and 434 Squadron lost Lancaster X KB741 that night, shot down by night fighter according to the Luftwaffe, , 6 killed 1 PoW.

 

Closest loss match to KB471 is KB401 which was with 627 Squadron, lost on 19/20 February 1945, hit by flak, crew killed, mission to Bohlen, aircraft of the master bomber, borrowed by 54 Base for the mission, the web site says KB401 608/627 Missing (Berlin) 20.2.45

 

Mosquito Squadrons of the Royal Air Force by Chaz Bowyer says when with 627 squadron, KB416 letter was P, KB490 was Q

[Collin]

My search of available decals or masks in 1/48 for a B.IV single stage engines BUT with the bulged bomb bays has turned up nothing. 

 

Great info above. I knew Mosquito tracing is tough, but turned out harder than I thought.  

 

Cheers

Collin

[Work In Progress]

6 hours ago, Collin said:

My search of available decals or masks in 1/48 for a B.IV single stage engines BUT with the bulged bomb bays has turned up nothing. 

Not really surprising given that there has never been a Mosquito kit configured like that, and it is very rare for decal makers to produce things for kits that don't exist. The best you can realistically hope for I think is to identify a suitable serial, match it to squadron codes, and just apply the markings from generic sheets.

[gingerbob]

On 9/26/2020 at 11:21 AM, EwenS said:

All the Canadian built B.XX and B.XXV left the factory with the standard bomb bay doors.

 

Due to the demand for the 4,000lb bomb bay in these aircraft it was agreed in Oct 1944 that Marshalls of Cambridge would undertake a conversion programme in Britain to give them two stage Merlin 69 engines, lying around in an MU unused, and the bulged 4,000lb bomb bay. Flight trials of the first conversion took place in Jan 1945. But with the end of the war looming it did not proceed very far, and most of those converted did not get the engine upgrade. Five B.XXV serials are given in a couple of books as having the bulged bomb bay with no mention of the engine change:- KB409, 416, 490, 561 and KB625. 627 squadron operated KB490 as AZ-Q and possibly the others.

 

The only other single stage bomber Mosquitos, AFAIK, were the 20 B.IV converted early in 1944 with DZ serials and used mostly by 692 squadron.

 

Are you saying that there were 20 B.IV (DZ serials) with bulged bomb bays, the somewhat uncertain handful of B.XXVs, and that's ALL with single-stage engines and bulged bomb bay?

[Collin]

1 hour ago, gingerbob said:

 

Are you saying that there were 20 B.IV (DZ serials) with bulged bomb bays, the somewhat uncertain handful of B.XXVs, and that's ALL with single-stage engines and bulged bomb bay?

I thought 627 Squadron (AZ code) had some B.IVs concerted to bulged bays?  DZ633 for example. 

 

While I’m asking questions:  what size 1/48 size decals would be correct for the aircraft identification codes (AZ-?) and the aircraft IDs (DZXXX)?

 

Edit:  Actually AeroMaster 48-553 has AZ-Q on the sheet....which should be a bulged bay aircraft.  Now I just have to find that sheet.

 

Thanks

Collin

Edited September 28, 2020 by Collin

[EwenS]

2 hours ago, gingerbob said:

 

Are you saying that there were 20 B.IV (DZ serials) with bulged bomb bays, the somewhat uncertain handful of B.XXVs, and that's ALL with single-stage engines and bulged bomb bay?

Sorry 23 Mk.IV conversions per Sharp & Bowyer.

 

Modified by DH - DZ594, the prototype, which first flew early July 1943, and DZ534.

Modified by Vickers Armstrongs Weybridge and Marshalls of Cambridge - DZ599,606,608,611,630-634,636-644,646,650.

Modified by Vickers and DH - DZ647.

 

While plans initially called for all Mossie bomber production after Oct 1943 to be capable of carrying the 4,000lb bomb only 30 conversion kits were initially ordered by the end of July and the split between Mk.IV & IX was undecided. The problem was that with the 4,000lb bomb on board both versions had stability problems. The Mk.IV was only cleared by A&AEE after being fitted with larger elevator horn balances, having the rear camera removed and having 60lb of ballast fitted in the nose. The first deliveries were made in Jan/Feb 1944 and the first operational mission with them was flown on the night of 23/24 Feb 1944 by 692 squadron. At least one Mk.IX was fitted for the 4,000lb bomb, ML914.

 

There were only about 300 Mk.IV ordered, of which approx 27 became PR conversions, 36 Highball conversions and about a dozen others converted to other marks. At least 25 had been lost on ops by the end of 1943 and no doubt more for non-operational reasons. When you look at the Mossie bomber squadrons there were only 3 (105,109,139) before 627 formed in Nov 1943, with another 7 forming from the beginning of 1944 to the middle of Jan 1945.

 

The stability problems were overcome on the B.XVI which started coming off the production lines at the end of Nov 1943. So the B.IV(Special) 4,000lb bomb carrier was very much an interim model.

 

As I noted due to demand for 4,000lb bomb carriers later in 1944, thought was given to converting Canadian built B.XX/XXV in Britain, but by the time it was starting to become reality the need for them was questioned with the end of the war looming and eventually cancelled. They also faced the same stability issues. By that time as well there were plenty of B.XVI coming off the production line and the B.35 was nearing production. Consideration was given to fitting the enlarged bomb bay on the production line in Canada, but it was felt that this would have disrupted production over there. From about Feb 1945 Canadian production was shifting from B.XXV to the FB.26 anyway.

 

Edited September 28, 2020 by EwenS

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

Remembering the initial conversions to carry the 4,000 pound bombs had stability issues.  Apart from the mark 25 mentioned earlier, the listings in Mosquito by Sharpe and Bowyer say the following mark IV were converted to carry a 4,000 pound bomb and delivered in 1944.

 

By de Havilland DZ594 (Prototype), DZ534
By Vickers Armstrong (Weybridge) and Marshalls (Cambridge), DZ599, DZ606, DZ608, DZ611, DZ630 to DZ634, DZ636 to DZ644, DZ646, DZ650
By Vickers and de Havilland DZ647

Total 23.  Sorry for the duplication.

 

DZ534 618/627/692/627 Ditched 12m E of Cherbourg 27.7.44
DZ594 AAEE/627 SOC 28.6.45
DZ599 692/627 Missing from target marking over Elbe 28.3.45
DZ606 692/627/1655MTU/627/109 U/c collapsed while taxying Woodhall Spa 17.10.45
DZ608 692/169 Dived into ground Gayton Norfolk 10.6.44
DZ611 692/627/109 Swung on landing Woodhall Spa 9.10.45 not repaired
DZ630 692/1655MTU/EANS SOC 11.10.46
DZ631 692/139/692/109/692/627 Damaged on ground 12.4.45 NFD
DZ632 692/627/139/1655MTU Dived into ground Lound Suffolk 8.11.44
DZ633 693/627 SOC 30.5.45
DZ634 692/627/109 SOC 31.7.47
DZ636 692 Missing (Givors) 27.7.44
DZ637 627/692/627 Missing (Siegen) 2.2.45
DZ638 692 Missing from mining Kiel Canal 13.5.44
DZ639 618 SOC 5.4.46
DZ640 692/627 Missing (Walcheren) 30.10.44 believed target indicator exploded in bomb bay
DZ641 692/627/109 SOC 19.1.46
DZ642 692/627 Flew into hill nr Sumburgh 22.11.44
DZ643 692/627/109 SOC 2.1.47
DZ644 627/139 Missing (Homberg) 1.7.44
DZ646 692/627/139 Crashed in circuit Bourn returning from Ludwigshafen 5.5.44
DZ647 627/692 Missing (Frankfurt) 19.3.44
DZ650 692/627 Swung on take-off and u/c collapsed Woodhall Spa 29.12.44

 

DZ534 was taken on charge 13 March 1943, DZ650 on 10 July 1943, most aircraft delivery dates are in rough serial number order.  So they clearly served as standard mark IV before conversion.

 

Taking more from a file on the web
DZ534 AZ H 627 Squadron http://www.rafinfo.org.uk/BCWW2Losses/1944.htm
DZ534 P3 M 692 Squadron Mosquito Squadrons of the RAF
DZ594 AZ X 627 Squadron Mosquito Squadrons of the RAF
DZ599 AZ F 627 Squadron Chorley via Chorley's Bomber Command Losses via Lost Bombers website
DZ606 AZ H 627 Squadron Mosquito Squadrons of the RAF 
DZ606 AZ M 627 Squadron Mosquito Squadrons of the RAF 
DZ606 XD M 139 Squadron AIR 14/3460 When damaged by flak on 7/8 May 1944.
DZ608 XD D 139 Squadron Mosquito Thunder 
DZ608 P3 F 692 Squadron AIR 14/3460 When damaged in heavy landing on 3/4 May 1944.
DZ611 AZ G 627 Squadron Mosquito Squadrons of the RAF
DZ631 XD A 139 Squadron AIR 14/3460 When damaged by flak on 22/23 May 1944.
DZ632 AZ C 627 Squadron http://www.627squadron.co.uk/album.html 
DZ632 XD G 139 Squadron AIR 14/3460 When damaged by flak on 23/24 May 1944.
DZ633 AZ D 627 Squadron SAM Combat Colours 
DZ633 P3 O 692 Squadron AIR 14/3460 When damaged by flak on 15/16 June 1944.
DZ636 AZ N 627 Squadron Chorley's Bomber Command Losses via Lost Bombers website 
DZ636 P3 R 692 Squadron AIR 14/3460 When damaged by flak on 7/8 June 1944. Air Britain does not list this aircraft as having been on 692 Squadron.
DZ637 AZ X 627 Squadron Chorley's Bomber Command Losses via Lost Bombers website Used  by 617 Squadron, coded O  617 OBB
DZ637 P3 C 692 Squadron SAM Combat Colours 
DZ637 AZ O 627 Squadron 617 OBB Used  by 617 Squadron, coded O
DZ637 AZ X 627 Squadron AIR 14/3460 When damaged by flak on 31 December 1944 (Oslo).
DZ638 P3 C 692 Squadron AIR 14/3460 When damaged by flak on 4/5 May 1944.
DZ639       P 618 Squadron Mosquito Squadrons of the RAF 
DZ640 AZ U 627 Squadron Chorley via Chorley's Bomber Command Losses via Lost Bombers website 
DZ640 P3 A 692 Squadron AIR 14/3460 When damaged by flak on 3/4 May 1944.
DZ641 AZ C 627 Squadron http://www.627squadron.co.uk/album.html 
DZ641 P3 E 692 Squadron AIR 14/3460 When damaged by flak on 18/19 March 1944.
DZ642 AZ H 627 Squadron http://www.627squadron.co.uk/Crash-Sumburgh.htm 
DZ642 AZ O 627 Squadron AIR 14/3460 When damaged by flak on 30 October 1944.
DZ642 P3 N 692 Squadron AIR 14/3460 When damaged by flak on 7/8 June 1944. Air Britain does not list this aircraft as having been on 692 Squadron.
DZ643 AZ O 627 Squadron Mosquito Squadrons of the RAF 
DZ643 AZ P 627 Squadron Mosquito Squadrons of the RAF 
DZ644 XD V 139 Squadron Chorley via Chorley's Bomber Command Losses via Lost Bombers website 
DZ646 XD A 139 Squadron AIR 14/3460 When lost in a landing accident on 4/5 May 1944. 
DZ647 P3 B 692 Squadron http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:De_Havilland_Mosquito#23.2F24_February_1944  
DZ650 AZ Q 627 Squadron Chorley's Bomber Command Losses via Lost Bombers website
DZ650 P3 L 692 Squadron Mosquito

[Work In Progress]

2 hours ago, Collin said:

Edit:  Actually AeroMaster 48-553 has AZ-Q on the sheet....which should be a bulged bay aircraft.  Now I just have to find that sheet.

Well, not really. That's DZ415 which is also on an Eagle Cals sheet EC167 and can be bought new.

https://www.eagle-editions.com/product/eaglecals-167/

But either way, I see no reason to call it anything other than a standard bomb bay aircraft.

 

That Eagle Cals sheet is reviewed here in its 1/32 version, but it's the same sheet (just smaller) in 1/48

 

Edited September 28, 2020 by Work In Progress

[Graham Boak]

618 Sq had the Mk.XVIII, operated in Coastal Command, and would seem a very unlikely candidate for the 4000lb conversion.

[Collin]

29 minutes ago, Work In Progress said:

Well, not really. That's DZ415 which is also on an Eagle Cals sheet EC167 and can be bought new.

https://www.eagle-editions.com/product/eaglecals-167/

But either way, I see no reason to call it anything other than a standard bomb bay aircraft.

 

That Eagle Cals sheet is reviewed here in its 1/32 version, but it's the same sheet (just smaller) in 1/48

 

Thanks for this info.  I missed that sheet.  Guess I can just mix and match to get the DZ633 letters/numbers from all other other sheets I have.

 

Cheers

Collin

[EwenS]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

618 Sq had the Mk.XVIII, operated in Coastal Command, and would seem a very unlikely candidate for the 4000lb conversion.

DZ534 was one of the Mk.IV aircraft initially converted for Highball and carried a /G suffix to the serial. Hence its service with 618 squadron during 1943 which had been formed specifically for that purpose. By Oct 1943, Highball operations were on hold, many of the crews posted to other units with the squadron reduced to a cadre, and most of the Highball Mossies sent to MUs for storage.

 

Then in 1944 Highball was resurrected, and with that 618 squadron.  The surviving aircraft were brought out of storage in Aug/Sept and underwent further modification and some additional airframes converted to the latest standard. DZ534 was not amongst those upgraded at that time.

 

So I would surmise that it had started as a Highball conversion, been returned to DH late 1943/early 1944 and converted to bulged bomb bay configuration and reissued to 627 before being lost in July 1944.

 

DZ639 shows up as a bulged bomb bay conversion but also as one of the additional Highball conversions in Aug/Sept 1944 which explains it serving with 618 when it went to Australia at the end of the year. All the surviving 618 squadron aircraft were scrapped in Australia. I seem to recall that some of the remains of one are being used as the basis of a rebuild in New Zealand.

 

3 Mosquito XVIII were delivered to 618 squadron in Sept/Oct 1943. 4 crews and 34 ground crew then formed 618 Squadron Special Detachment attached to 248 Beaufighter Squadron at Predannack. An eventual 5 Mk.XVIII aircraft served with the detachment, one being lost in Nov 1943, before it was disbanded in May 1944 and its aircraft taken over by 248, which had in the meantime converted to the Mosquito FB.VI.

 

 

Edited September 28, 2020 by EwenS

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

On ‎27‎/‎09‎/‎2020 at 01:21, EwenS said:

In addition to those airframes there is a series of photos of KB471 taken at Boscombe Down with both the engine conversion and the bulged bomb bay. Was this the prototype conversion by Marshalls that flew in Jan 1945? The IWM photo claims it was lost in Feb 1945? Is anyone able to confirm that? The bit about the squadrons it operated with seems totally wrong. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205126652

I decided to report the photograph caption to the Imperial War Museum, pointing out that it had the biography of Lancaster KB741, not Mosquito KB471, a real human replied.

 

"Thank you for contacting the IWM Customers Services Team.

 

Thank you also for identifying this error in our online records.  I've forwarded it to the appropriate curatorial team to investigate and correct.  It seems that information from the original donor source many years ago was wrong, and with such a nassive archive, it is simply not possible for us to check retrospectively every record.  We are, therefore hugely grateful to people such as yourself to highlight these errors to us.

 

With kind regards,

Debbie

Customer Services Executive"

[SafetyDad]

This picture might help with some details:

 

 

Source Bowyer C. (1973) Mosquito at War Ian Allen Shepperton Surrey

 

The lower picture shows what you are looking for, namely a modified Mosquito BIV with single stage engines plus the bulged bomb bay. In this case DZ637 P3@C as detailed by @Geoffrey Sinclairabove (in addition this is also one of the marking options of the HKM 1/32 Mosquito). Great looking scheme in my view with the black undersurfaces and red codes.

 

Look closely at the prop blades and compare them with the BXVI above it - no paddle blades on these early conversions. No idea about decals for this in 1/48 - I think as others have said that its 'mix and match' time for the codes and serials.

 

HTH

 

SD

[The wooksta V2.0]

Kits at war did a sheet in both 72nd and 48th that included a bulged bay B.IV, P3-C being one of them.  Try finding that sheet now...

 

Ta for the info, I've one of these on the go right now, using the Freightdog conversion on the superb Tamiya B.IV.  The plan is to do P3-C but I'm more tempted with a 627 sqn aircraft instead.  Apparently the pilots disliked them as the performance was below par.

Edited March 7, 2021 by The wooksta V2.0

[The wooksta V2.0]

Further to the discussion, I'm trying to find some more info and preferably a photo of DZ534 in the bulged configuration with 627 sqn.

The Kits at War sheet has the placement diagram with it having two stage Merlins. I'm minded to right it off as an error but the sheet seems to be reasonably well researched, so I want a photo before I go any further.