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Now that's what you call, losing it!


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On the Beeb this morning, there was an item about a bill going through parliament, demanding stronger punishment for people who abuse/assault shop workers. To illustrate what they meant, they showed some cctv footage taken at a Co-op store in England. A woman walks into the shop and is immediately asked to follow the one way system around the shop. Her reaction is unbelievable. She starts ranting at the two shop workers, banging her fists upon the Perspex screens, and then starts sweeping off everything that is on the shelves, smashing many bottle in the process. The ironic thing to me, was that all the time she was doing this, she's screaming "I've not done anything wrong!" Really?? Apart from losing all control?

 

John.

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13 minutes ago, Bullbasket said:

Her reaction is unbelievable. She starts ranting at the two shop workers, banging her fists upon the Perspex screens, and then starts sweeping off everything that is on the shelves, smashing many bottle in the process. The ironic thing to me, was that all the time she was doing this, she's screaming "I've not done anything wrong!" Really?? Apart from losing all control?

Had to search for that footage, but wow, talk about crazy :mental:

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The problem we have in this country is that a lot of people, don't like being told "no!", have never been told "no!", do as they want, and people simply don't challenge them.  This has led to the selfish, entitled, behaviour you've described being shown in that BBC clip.

 

As we go on it will only get worse.  Back in March when all the panic buying started, there was a video on Twitter, of a guy, apparently the manager of a store of a well known supermarket, telling people they couldn't buy so many of x item.  Similar behaviour (although not as extreme) was exhibited in that video by customers.

 

Apparently the guy got fired for telling people "no!".

Edited by RobL
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24 minutes ago, 3DStewart said:

The law is already adequate, just enforce it. One exceptional and highly unusual case isn't a reason to alter the law.

 

In any case you can't legislate away insanity.

 

 

Having had 2 family members who have worked in retail, specifically in high street supermarkts, one for 35+ years, I can safely say it's not just one exceptional and highly unusual case.  The example today on the BBC may be of the extreme, but there is a general attitude amongst certain people in our society, and abuse of shop staff happens regularly.  It was a growing problem, even before this pandemic.

Edited by RobL
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5 hours ago, Mick4350 said:

Had to search for that footage, but wow, talk about crazy :mental:

Where did you find the footage Mick? I want to show swmbo as she missed it.

 

John.

 

Edit. OK, I've found it.

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You can't legislate away loonies, worst luck.  There's also a massive increase in sense of entitlement with some people who can't seem to countenance that they can ever be wrong.  Probably should have been told "no" more often when they were kids and taught the difference between right and wrong.  They're a growth industry though, worryingly and I think that the Lockdown has made some of them more crazy, as we've seen here once or twice lately. :mental:

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29 minutes ago, Bullbasket said:

Where did you find the footage Mick? I want to show swmbo as she missed it.

 

John.

 

Edit. OK, I've found it.

Daily Telegraph

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Digusting behaviour. No doubt she will blame it on having a bad childhood or some such... but in my view there are no excuses for doing that just for being asked to follow the 'rules' I've seen plenty of people in shops not following the one way system either through sheer arrogance but more likely stupidity.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

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The pervasive idea of unfettered personal freedoms taking precedence over any sort of "social contract" of decency and respect towards one another is at the root of many of our social ills. And that applies equally to left and right, before anyone accuses me of finger pointing. 

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8 hours ago, Bullbasket said:

The ironic thing to me, was that all the time she was doing this, she's screaming "I've not done anything wrong!" Really?? Apart from losing all control

I'll bet the police will take a dim view when she's arrested and question that in court that "i've not done anything wrong " attitude.

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1 hour ago, fatfingers said:

Digusting behaviour. No doubt she will blame it on having a bad childhood or some such... but in my view there are no excuses for doing that just for being asked to follow the 'rules' I've seen plenty of people in shops not following the one way system either through sheer arrogance but more likely stupidity.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

One phrase covers it, "we are all responsible for our own actions". With a caveat, that being, does the women have mental health issues? My reaction was the same as most, however, this may be a case of 'one piece of information, in isolation', in this instance, being useless. Remember folks, good news don't sell papers or make the lead story on the 6:00 news. Just saying.......

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Issues of mental health, infirmity or learning disability in many forms aside, I think there is a fundamental issue here. We live in a society that has a legal system based on rights and obligations (Common law) and it strikes me that a large chunk of society , be they individuals or organisations tend to be very keen on the 'rights' but would rather forget about the 'obligation' bit. As an ex nurse and lecturing in healtcare law and ethics as part of my old day job, this is something that I used to think about a lot. 

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One thing that is a huge trend these past years is making special cases out of everything. Of course shop workers shouldn’t be abused. Nor teachers, nor nursing and medical staff , nor police or emergency service workers nor etc etc etc  By introducing more and more special cases nothing ends up special any more and you get back to square one. Given existing laws usually cover the case and if sentencing had been left more flexible to allow consideration of circumstances the courts could more easily deal with these exceptional cases as they crop up. Our local court regards assaults or bad behaviour at the local hospital as having an aggravated character with consequences in sentencing. 

 

Similar scenario in the NHS where policy makes something a new priority every month with the end result once everything is prioritised, nothing is. 
 

The ongoing drive to criminalise conduct such as football hooliganism, assaults on (insert latest topical issue) etc is arguably not required. Just apply the existing criminal law but give law enforcement and the justice system the required resources. The trouble is all politicians think that passing a new law means an effective solution and problem solved. It doesn’t unless it gets enforced. 
 

Just one example. Years ago now smoking in the car with young kids in it was made unlawful. Police reported just six motorists to the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service (COPFS) (That’s the whole of GB) for smoking while minors were inside the car between December 2016 and March 2019. None of the referrals resulted in a prosecution. Prosecutors also say “fewer than five” drivers have been reported to them this year for breaking the anti-smoking laws. None of the cases pursued has produced a guilty verdict. An anti-smoking charity welcomed the findings and said it showed the law, which prohibits motorists puffing a cigarette in front of under-18s, was being complied with. “We’re pleased to see such low levels of law enforcement have been needed,”   Aye right, so it must. It really means it’s not being enforced or overnight there has been a sea change in public behaviour. 
 

The examples are endless. In the case of the lady she either needs psychiatric care or if not a spell on non self isolation in one of Her Majesty’s hotels to reflect on her future and past conduct plus a ban on ever returning to that shop. 

 

 

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The woman in the video has already been arrested for the offences. 

 

This happened back in May, the Co-Op has just released this CCTV footage in relation to the proposed legislation before Parliament as an example of the sort of abusive behaviour their staff has to put up with.

 

This is part of the report from The Independent Online that explains what happened to her, and and accompanying male.

 

A spokesperson for Surrey Police said in a statement: “A 41-year-old woman from Lingfield was arrested and given three conditional cautions for criminal damage and public order. A 61-year-old man from Godstone was also arrested in connection with the incident and given two community resolution orders for public order.

“Both of them have also been banned from entering the store.”

 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, JohnT said:

One thing that is a huge trend these past years is making special cases out of everything. Of course shop workers shouldn’t be abused. Nor teachers, nor nursing and medical staff , nor police or emergency service workers nor etc etc etc  By introducing more and more special cases nothing ends up special any more and you get back to square one. Given existing laws usually cover the case and if sentencing had been left more flexible to allow consideration of circumstances the courts could more easily deal with these exceptional cases as they crop up. Our local court regards assaults or bad behaviour at the local hospital as having an aggravated character with consequences in sentencing. 

 

.....

The ongoing drive to criminalise conduct such as football hooliganism, assaults on (insert latest topical issue) etc is arguably not required. Just apply the existing criminal law but give law enforcement and the justice system the required resources. The trouble is all politicians think that passing a new law means an effective solution and problem solved. It doesn’t unless it gets enforced. 
 

Just one example. Years ago now smoking in the car with young kids in it was made unlawful. Police reported just six motorists to the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service (COPFS) (That’s the whole of GB) for smoking while minors were inside the car between December 2016 and March 2019. None of the referrals resulted in a prosecution. Prosecutors also say “fewer than five” drivers have been reported to them this year for breaking the anti-smoking laws. None of the cases pursued has produced a guilty verdict. An anti-smoking charity welcomed the findings and said it showed the law, which prohibits motorists puffing a cigarette in front of under-18s, was being complied with. “We’re pleased to see such low levels of law enforcement have been needed,”   Aye right, so it must. It really means it’s not being enforced or overnight there has been a sea change in public behaviour. 
 

....

 

 

I completely agree although I think the "special cases" phenomenon is more of an issue in Scotland than the rest of the UK where the government tends to have other more important things to bother about. I'm very glad my days as a Procurator Fiscal (Scottish prosecutor for anyone not familiar with the title) are well behind me.

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Way too many people out there in the Western World who have never had their backside smacked when they were children. Those of who have, know how to behave in public.

 

I'm 65 and my Dad passed away 15 years ago, but sometimes, in the back of my mind, I feel him standing behind me, ready to tap a knuckle on the side of my head, to remind me to behave properly in public.

 

 

 

Chris

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1 hour ago, dogsbody said:

Way too many people out there in the Western World who have never had their backside smacked when they were children. Those of who have, know how to behave in public.

 

I'm 65 and my Dad passed away 15 years ago, but sometimes, in the back of my mind, I feel him standing behind me, ready to tap a knuckle on the side of my head, to remind me to behave properly in public.

 

 

 

Chris

And we should always remember that from our parents behave children or you will be getting a clip across the lug hole 

beefy 

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I had a few clips around the ear from my dad to keep me in lin but it wasn't just him,when i went to school there was such a thing as discipline and a thick ear from teachers wasn't uncommon...Unfortunetly that never happens anymore because they're to worried about losing their jobs or ending up in court,at the end of the day though it didn't do me any harm...

Edited by Vince1159
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On 9/25/2020 at 8:14 PM, treker_ed said:

The woman in the video has already been arrested for the offences. 

 

This happened back in May, the Co-Op has just released this CCTV footage in relation to the proposed legislation before Parliament as an example of the sort of abusive behaviour their staff has to put up with.

 

This is part of the report from The Independent Online that explains what happened to her, and and accompanying male.

 

A spokesperson for Surrey Police said in a statement: “A 41-year-old woman from Lingfield was arrested and given three conditional cautions for criminal damage and public order. A 61-year-old man from Godstone was also arrested in connection with the incident and given two community resolution orders for public order.

“Both of them have also been banned from entering the store.”

 

 

 

Well that sentence is going to put the fear of God into them.

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The idea of it going through Parliament isn't new, USDAW the union have campaigned a long while for it but what has changed is the increase in recent times of abuse and is ramping up because more retailers are enforcing the wearing of a mask rule.

Personally I think part of the problem is the retailers trying to placate customers so they don't lose them at the expense of their own staff until things get to a point where there is a backlash. I work in a supermarket and have seen it all but fortunately I personally haven't been assaulted but when something does kick off and you have the security guard or even a colleague sitting on someone whilst they scream and struggle it does make you concerned that a needle or a knife is going to be pulled out, I've had a colleague threatened with a knife and the shop I'm in is in the town centre! 

 

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One of the major flaws in political thinking is that passing a new law will solve the problem. Politicians have fallen into the trap of thinking that they must be seen "to be doing something" and for them, the easiest thing to do is to pass new legislation. After all, most of them have legal backgrounds so the creation of new law comes naturally to them.

 

The problem with this approach is that the legal system becomes clogged up with hundreds of pieces of new legislation - some of which ends up contradicting other legislation already in existence.

 

An example (from France) was that some protestors were arrested a few days ago for wearing face masks on the street - because it contravenes a piece of legislation passed in 2019 that bans the use of face coverings.

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There's is probably no need for new legislation. What is required is for magistrates/judges to actually enforce the law by passing appropriate sentences. There are so many instances where this hasn't been done. One example is the law regarding causing death by dangerous driving. I believe the maximum was upped to 15 years. So why was a truck driver only given 5 years when he wiped out a woman and three children, because he was changing the music on his I phone? Why was he not given the maximum sentence? Is four deaths not enough to qualify?

 

John.

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Interesting thread.

 

I worked retail many years ago in my native Canada. While I did see my share of problem customers, things hadn't quite got to the point they are now with entitled attitudes. For reference, that was back in the early 1990s.

 

I've been working customer care for the past year and a half after 15 years of teaching English as a second language. The development of the entitiled attitude of the "western" consumer has been a shock to the system to say the least.

 

The bulk of my work is done by email with some phone work thrown in.  I deal with the company's customers from a variety of English speaking markets and it's certainly given me food for thought about what English speaking cultures have that entitled "Your rules don't apply to ME" attitude going strong.

 

Though I am loathe to generalize, Americans are by far the worst in my experience. However, I've dealt with a number of Australian, British and Canadian customers that weren't too far behind the Americans that way. The New Zealanders and South Africans I've dealt with seem to have had control over themselves.

 

It's quite disturbing in a way when customers go crazy in an email, saying some truly nasty things and pointing the finger at you when you can easily show them, with multiple examples, that they are in the wrong and are not entitiled to the refund or whatever compensation they think they should be getting. They get more and more angry the more you can show them conclusively they are in the wrong.

 

Sometimes you hit a point where you have to call them because they are not letting anything you say in emails get through to them. You pick up that phone and call someone who's been quite abusive to you via email and expect the worst. Once you get them on the line, it's hard to believe that same person is talking to you with a friendly and reasonable voice and letting the things you explained to them in multiple ways over a series of emails get through to them easily in a few minutes worth of phone call. It's like they suddenly remember their manners when they have an actual person to deal with.

 

On the one hand, you're relieved that they weren't the same on the phone as they were in the emails. On the other hand, it's rather disconcerting how quickly some people can shift their personalities seemingly at the flip of a switch.

 

 

 

 

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