F7F-3 P Tigercat- A reconnaissance version ?

[Holzhamer]

I have recently bought Italeri Tigercat kit in 1/48, which is as you all know this kit is the AMT reboxed by Italeri. 

Since I want to build a Koran war machine the one in the box art caught my eye, however some sources claim that this plane, from MAG-33, was in fact a photo-reconnaissance. I can’t  find any photo or diagram of such photo camera installation. Any help is much appreciated, thanks!

[Giorgio N]

The -3P had all cameras hidden under opening doors, so it is quite easy to modify the kit, just scribe these. In addition some aircraft had an ADF antenna within a fairing on the top fuselage.

Location and shape of the camera doors can be found in the Squadron Signal in Action volume dedicated to the Tigercat: 2 on the port rear fuselage, 1 on the starboard rear fuselage and 2 under the rear fuselage. I don't know of any online reference for this detail, although as there is one fying -3P in the US maybe pictures of this can show them (if they have not been removed over the years

Edited September 22, 2020 by Giorgio N

[franky boy]

It may also be a worth see if you can get hold of a copy the In Detail and Scale publication on the Tigercat by Bert Kinsey (I think)?

 

Its a good source of reference photos. 
 

Make sure you do a WIP. The Tigercat is a great aircraft. 
 

James

[72modeler]

The Naval Fighters monograph, number 75 on the Tigercat would be by far the best reference. The -3P is covered on p32, and 72-73. A total of 61 were converted by the Lockheed Modification center. The 20mm guns in the wings and the radar equipment were removed, and an ADF football was frequently fitted aft of the R/O's cockpit. Starting with the seventh aircraft, an SCR269 radio compass was fitted. Some -3P's had an extra fuel tank fitted in the R/O's cockpit, which was skinned over. The -3P could be fitted with three cameras, one vertical and two oblique, behind close-fitting doors aft of the wing.  There were two possible positions for the oblique cameras- one forward and slightly below the national insignia and the second within the star. Some -3P's had the original short fin, and some had the taller squared-off fin, but there were no BuNo's listed- you would have to go by photos of the subject you want to model to determine which fin was fitted. The location of the camera doors is almost impossible to detect in photos, due to the sea blue paint and how tightly the doors fitted. Maybe @Tailspin Turtle could be more forthcoming on the position and  arrangement of the camera doors. best I can do with the references in my library.

Mike

[Holzhamer]

Thank you all for the great response. That’s some good information I didn’t have so far. Seems the box art obviously doesn’t portrait  a -3 P version. Besides the weapon array, there is no R/O cockpit to be seen. 

 

 

As for all all those books you guys advise, I have none. If you could post, or send in pm, some images or diagrams of those camera hatches that would be most helpful!

 

Cheers!

Edited September 22, 2020 by Holzhamer

[Giorgio N]

Aircraft modified to the 3P standard seem to have included both single and two-seaters, so the presence of a rear cockpit is not an indication.

I'll see if I can find a way to show the camera doors position

[franky boy]

2 hours ago, 72modeler said:

The Naval Fighters monograph, number 75 on the Tigercat would be by far the best reference. The -3P is covered on p32, and 72-73. A total of 61 were converted by the Lockheed Modification center. The 20mm guns in the wings and the radar equipment were removed, and an ADF football was frequently fitted aft of the R/O's cockpit. Starting with the seventh aircraft, an SCR269 radio compass was fitted. Some -3P's had an extra fuel tank fitted in the R/O's cockpit, which was skinned over. The -3P could be fitted with three cameras, one vertical and two oblique, behind close-fitting doors aft of the wing.  There were two possible positions for the oblique cameras- one forward and slightly below the national insignia and the second within the star. Some -3P's had the original short fin, and some had the taller squared-off fin, but there were no BuNo's listed- you would have to go by photos of the subject you want to model to determine which fin was fitted. The location of the camera doors is almost impossible to detect in photos, due to the sea blue paint and how tightly the doors fitted. Maybe @Tailspin Turtle could be more forthcoming on the position and  arrangement of the camera doors. best I can do with the references in my library.

Mike

That’s actually the one I meant. Sorry got my wires crossed. Again!

 

James

[Tailspin Turtle]

I haven’t done much on the F7F. A correction of an illustration is here: https://tailhooktopics.blogspot.com/2016/11/grumman-f7f-tigercat-variations.html

 

More later, maybe

[Troy Smith]

A good chap to ask would be @ReccePhreak  as this is his specialist area, as the name suggests.

[Holzhamer]

1 hour ago, Tailspin Turtle said:

I haven’t done much on the F7F. A correction of an illustration is here: https://tailhooktopics.blogspot.com/2016/11/grumman-f7f-tigercat-variations.html

 

More later, maybe

Thank you Tailspin Turtle really helpful drawings

1 hour ago, Troy Smith said:

A good chap to ask would be @ReccePhreak  as this is his specialist area, as the name suggests.

I’ll do just that Troy, thanks!!

[72modeler]

@Holzhamer,

 

Looking at the profile drawings Tommy posted, (Thanks so much, @Tailspin Turtle!) as well as some text I discovered after my post, it seems the oblique cameras were both installed on the LH side, as seen in the diagrams Tommy posted; the vertical camera was located between two access panels, but I haven't found a photo or drawing that shows it. The photos in the Ginter book don't really show the location of the camera doors, as they are closeup photos of the doors. If I can ever get off my lazy bum and figure out how to post photos, I will so so. I have lots of photos of a restored -3P, but none of the camera doors, as I had no intention of doing a recon version.

Mike

[Holzhamer]

13 hours ago, 72modeler said:

@Holzhamer,

 

Looking at the profile drawings Tommy posted, (Thanks so much, @Tailspin Turtle!) as well as some text I discovered after my post, it seems the oblique cameras were both installed on the LH side, as seen in the diagrams Tommy posted; the vertical camera was located between two access panels, but I haven't found a photo or drawing that shows it. The photos in the Ginter book don't really show the location of the camera doors, as they are closeup photos of the doors. If I can ever get off my lazy bum and figure out how to post photos, I will so so. I have lots of photos of a restored -3P, but none of the camera doors, as I had no intention of doing a recon version.

Mike

Thanks a lot mate! Look forward if you can send me those 

cheers!

[Tailspin Turtle]

I’m afraid I may have left the impression that I’ve answered the question. In looking at it further, it appears that there was a small oblique port on the left side and a larger one on the right (both appear to have sliding covers). The SAC shows three camera doors on the belly, but I suspect that one is actually a camera port (sliding cover), one is an access panel to the cameras, and the third (most forward) is an access door with a louvered panel on the left side for the far end of the periscope. 

 

More later,

[Finn]

No camera info but some good cockpit details in this manual that may be useful:

 

https://www.docdroid.com/0ceyern/grumman-f7f-tigercat-pilots-handbook-pdf

 

Jari

[Holzhamer]

Thanks Finn, that’s the full pilots manual, great stuff! Besides the cockpits images and diagrams, those comics are a blast 🙂

[Tailspin Turtle]

20 hours ago, Finn said:

No camera info but some good cockpit details in this manual that may be useful:

 

https://www.docdroid.com/0ceyern/grumman-f7f-tigercat-pilots-handbook-pdf

 

Jari

Trivia, since it doesn’t show the F7F-3P cockpit. The cockpit end of the periscope was under the pilot’s seat, facing forward. There was a small mirror on the floor on the left side of the center console so the pilot could see what was below him.

Edited September 24, 2020 by Tailspin Turtle

[Tailspin Turtle]

On 9/23/2020 at 12:05 PM, Tailspin Turtle said:

I’m afraid I may have left the impression that I’ve answered the question. In looking at it further, it appears that there was a small oblique port on the left side and a larger one on the right (both appear to have sliding covers). The SAC shows three camera doors on the belly, but I suspect that one is actually a camera port (sliding cover), one is an access panel to the cameras, and the third (most forward) is an access door with a louvered panel on the left side for the far end of the periscope. 

 

More later,

I’m still working on it. The access door for the periscope was actually an existing one modified with a louvered panel. It was on the belly between the aft bulkhead of the cockpit and the forward end of the fuel cell bay. The SAC drawing isn’t correct as near as I can tell. More later...

[Tailspin Turtle]

On 9/25/2020 at 10:56 AM, Tailspin Turtle said:

I’m still working on it. The access door for the periscope was actually an existing one modified with a louvered panel. It was on the belly between the aft bulkhead of the cockpit and the forward end of the fuel cell bay. The SAC drawing isn’t correct as near as I can tell. More later...

And here it is: https://tailhooktopics.blogspot.com/2020/09/grumman-f7f-3p-tigercat.html

 

I created the two-view drawing from more than a dozen different drawings and pictures that provided insight into bits and pieces of the configuration. As a result, it's a bit better than notional and far more accurate than the SAC but not perfect. For one thing, I had three different F7F-3 side views including the SAC to work with, all of them created by Grumman, that had slight but notable differences in shape. However, it is accurate with respect to the overall size and pretty accurate with respect to the location of the various hatches and camera ports but the hatches/ports are not necessarily the exact size and shape since that had to be derived from the photos, the most relevant of which are included.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Tailspin Turtle

[Holzhamer]

Tailspin, what you just added is exactly what I was looking for, and more. The detail of the periscope, both externally and the pilots view is just fantastic, and I’ll surely try to scratch build those too.

As a side note it’s worth noting that the rivets we see aren’t flushed, something I wasn’t aware. A big thank you!

[ReccePhreak]

@Tailspin Turtle Does the F7F-3P SAC mention the types of cameras (And lens sizes) installed, and the depression angles of the Left & Right Oblique cameras?

 

Larry

[Tailspin Turtle]

The F7F-3P camera configuration isn’t described in the F7F-3 SAC. However, according to Ginter’s F7F monograph, the first vertical camera position could be loaded with the K-17, 12-inch; K-17, 24-inch; or K-18 or F-56, 40-inch. The second vertical position, first left horizontal position, and only right horizontal position are for the tri-metrogon installation of three K-17, 6-inch cameras; the side cameras are angled down 30 degrees from horizontal (the left and right portholes are not symmetric; my guess is that one camera had to be mounted above the other due to the narrow fuselage). The left side (“flat oblique)” F-56, 20-inch camera could be mounted behind the aft left porthole at either six or 15 degrees down from horizontal.

[72modeler]

12 hours ago, Tailspin Turtle said:

The F7F-3P camera configuration isn’t described in the F7F-3 SAC

The reason I didn't paraphrase the camera mounts/positions stated in the Ginter book in my post was because the camera doors were always closed until just before the photo run, so wouldn't be visible on the ground. BTW, thanks for all the information and diagrams you posted- that took a lot of time and effort.

Mike

[ReccePhreak]

@Tailspin Turtle Thanks for that info. I realize that like @72modeler mentioned, the camera windows were only opened in flight just before the photo run, I will have mine open so you can see the camera lenses. If numerous modelers can display a model of an aircraft fully loaded with weapons, up on jacks & numerous access panels open, for "artistic license", then I can have my camera windows exposed. Besides, they have to clean the windows before fight, anyway.

Larry 

[Holzhamer]

That’s true Larry, there is nothing unnatural about having those camera ports open.

I’m still considering if mine will be on a stand, giving an inflight pose, or just parked in some runway.  However scratch building 3 cameras is a bit too much for me, so I’ll probably just leave the ports shut.

Wonder if those Tigers carried bombs like the box art suggests?? Doesn’t seem logical, but then war isn’t always a logical affair either 

[ReccePhreak]

Based on my ~20 years experience working on the cameras of various reconnaissance aircraft, they would not be armed. A recce aircraft pilot's job would be to go in, get the photos and return to base ASAP. If the planes had guns, rocket or bombs, then most pilots would be more inclined to try to shoot down enemy aircraft or attack their targets. That was the USAF's thinking and it made perfect sense. Recce pilots aren't glamorous, but aces are. 

I saw that reasoning in various official US military training films for recce crew members.

Larry