The Me-109E Tamiya and its desert camouflage

[Hook]

7 minutes ago, Massimo Tessitori said:

What is more likely?

Since RLM70 was the officially prescribed colour, I'd go with the Svhwartzgrün instead of black.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[Graham Boak]

Not in the factory - although sometimes that was true at least for late variants - but in the German equivalent of an MU in Germany.  I think the colour is not blue enough for 65, but the photo makes it look like a simple white which doesn't make any kind of sense.

[JackG]

Concerning the area around the tail swastika, it would be good idea to look at better quality photos from the same unit during that period.  The main photo being referred to just appears peculiar, as does the unit marking on the cowl - it just looks like they embellished by hand directly on the photo.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This last one could be a hand coloured print as well, but it doesn't have the tail marking with a light surround.

 

 

regards,

 

Jack

[Troy Smith]

9 hours ago, Massimo Tessitori said:

how much have them to drop?

Airfix in their 1/48th kit specify -42 degrees for the flaps, and -13 degrees for the ailerons.

9 hours ago, Massimo Tessitori said:

Only with fully down flaps?

Yes, it was additional flap area.

9 hours ago, Massimo Tessitori said:

What is more likely between 65 and 76?  The photo should be of the second half of 1941. 

I don't now that the E model was repainted into the 74/75/765 grey scheme, so I presume that 65 is more likely.

There are images of 109E's in the desert before a repaint

 I don't know what the colours are, the wings look maybe 71/02, but the fuselage looks to have grey over paint, possibly 66, I say this as 109 canopies were overall 66 until repainted, and the  canopy frames look the same tone as the fuselage grey.

Note the way the sand has removed the paint from the top half of the back of the prop blade, this would only be the back of the blade as well.

 

this is a better quality/colour balance image, and, it is original colour (you queried this )

 

I was beginning to wonder if the back patch to the swastika was a an illusion, but the other image of black 8 shows this better, and is not as bleached out

again, note the worn off prop blade paint

 

this is far better representation of the colours

the prop blades do look black here,  but, given the wear shown in the other photos, may well have been repainted?

 

These do  look 70,  and well worn.  

 

I presume the yellow is from the Balkan campaign?

 

see here for more images

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/JG27-I-MTO.html

 

and finally...why they got repainted...

 

HTH

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi all, 

thanks for your answers and for the images. 

the strange wearing of the prop blades is very noticeable, it looks limited to the outer half of the rear face. This would explain the shinings visble on the photo of n.8.

About the prop, I think to go with 70 even if the most part of the photosgive the idea of black.  This color could have been used to repaint the worn shining blades.

About the swastika, I think to leave a RLM 65 square under it, looks the more credible explanation for its peculiar look on both photos of plane 8 and not on other ones. 

About ailerons and flaps: those angles make the thing difficult, moving the ailerons down of 14° requires to cut them, and my impression of the angle of the flaps of the kit is less than 42°. I will fix them at a minor angle and leave the ailerons as they are.

Unfortunately the inside of the slot for flaps of the kit is not very realistic, it should follow the curved section of the flaps themselves, I've made some filling but it's not realistic enough to be shown too much. I wouldn't meet the same problem with the ailerons too. 

There are some sinks on the wings due to the thickness of the inside walls for the flaps and their hinges, I think that this is a not well made part of the kit itself. 

 

[Massimo Tessitori]

About the last photo: it is commonly shown as an example of how the camo was effective, but if the colors of the photo were realistic, it shouldn't be so: the blotches were green while the things on the ground seem shadows of rocks. The blue on the sides isn't distinguishable, but it would considerably ruin the effect.

[Troy Smith]

6 hours ago, Massimo Tessitori said:

the strange wearing of the prop blades is very noticeable, it looks limited to the outer half of the rear face. This would explain the shinings visble on the photo of n.8.

Detail of how prop blades wear was provided by @Work In Progress  who is a pilot,  as a detail when you see worn paint on a model, often big streak on the blade front,  an example of not looking at source material.   I was unaware of this detail,  but after having it pointed out,  have noticed it,  unsurprisingly, and in particular,  on aircraft operating from airfields made dry and abrasive materials like sand.   

Certainly would add a neat detail to a model.

6 hours ago, Massimo Tessitori said:

About the prop, I think to go with 70 even if the most part of the photosgive the idea of black.  This color could have been used to repaint the worn shining blades.

factory finish would have been 70, and maybe just the one in the propaganda pic was repainted. Depend if they had 70 in their paint stock,  while black was needed for markings, compare the blades to the wheel hub, which is black.

 It maybe that it was needed to be done for glare,  and example is pre war USAAF blades that were natural metal on the front, but marron on the back for this reason.

6 hours ago, Massimo Tessitori said:

About ailerons and flaps: those angles make the thing difficult, moving the ailerons down of 14° requires to cut them, and my impression of the angle of the flaps of the kit is less than 42°. I will fix them at a minor angle and leave the ailerons as they are.

Just reporting what I have read,  and while no reason that would not have been returned to a neutral position after landing.

6 hours ago, Massimo Tessitori said:

it is commonly shown as an example of how the camo was effective, but if the colors of the photo were realistic, it shouldn't be so: the blotches were green while the things on the ground seem shadows of rocks. The blue on the sides isn't distinguishable, but it would considerably ruin the effect.

I only added it after the photo hunt.  The dark patches on the ground I think are scrub though. 

the disruptive pattern works even if the colours are not an exact match,  and don't forget ground concealment maybe a factor as well.

The blue sides are not such a problem,  the change of side colour on Luftwaffe fighters started in early 1940,  when the low demarcation ground concealment 70/71 was found to make aircraft stand out,  leading to the revised 71/02, with high side demarcation, then this being found to be to conspicuous in the Battle of Britain, leading to the compromise of high demarcation with side mottle.

 

Certainly one aspect that makes Luftwaffe subject such modelling favourites are the filed applied schemes, responding to changing tactical environments.

I did spot details I had not noticed before when looking at the photos again, which is always a good thing  

 

cheers

T

[dogsbody]

Regarding the painting/re-painting of German propeller blades:

 

Quoting "L.Dv 521/1 Behandlungs- und Anwendungsvorschrift für Flugzeuglacke 1941"
Flieglack 7146 (Luftschrauben-Anstrich) (Prop blade painting)
...
Verarbeitungsvorschrift (instruction for processing)
1. Careful degreasing of the propeller blades
2. Thinly spraying laquer 7142,- in one layer...(a primer of no particular colour)
3. Spraying laquer 7146.71 in one layer crosswise... (1st layer pigmented in RLM 71)
4. Spraying laquer 7146.70 in one layer crosswise... (2nd layer pigmented in RLM 70)

So metal prop blades show two different pigmented layers of colours with blackgreen RLM 70 painted over dark green 71. The reason is evident - to control the amount of necessary paint layers. This significates that an ageing prop blade will show more and more of RLM 71 and thus appear brighter. Btw, only the airscrew manufacturer was allowed to paint the prop blades because of the imminent danger of unbalance.
 

 

So I doubt that the blades were repainted at some maintenance field unit.

 

 

 

Chris

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi all, 

Quote

So metal prop blades show two different pigmented layers of colours with blackgreen RLM 70 painted over dark green 71. The reason is evident - to control the amount of necessary paint layers. This significates that an ageing prop blade will show more and more of RLM 71 and thus appear brighter. Btw, only the airscrew manufacturer was allowed to paint the prop blades because of the imminent danger of unbalance.
So I doubt that the blades were repainted at some maintenance field unit.

Very interesting. So, partially worn areas should appear brighter. I was just considering if to paint before the green or the silver layer. The difference should be visible in the soft border between green and silver. Airbrushing 70 over silver, the soft area should come out naturally brighter. Airbrushing silver over green should give a different look. 

 

About the wheels: the instructions of Tamiya say to paint white the sides of the tail wheel tyre. Some photos shown here suggest that the sides of the main wheels tyres should have a white ring too. Is this on all Me-109 E wheels, or is it rare?

[JackG]

The 'whitewalls' on tires of desert based 109's was, according to an Osprey publication, a method to reflect the harsh sunlight - the idea being to preserve the longevity of the rubber.  In brackets they add it was seen on many early arrivals to the desert.

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dogsbody]

I seem to recall something about the white-walled tailwheel having extra metal in the rubber and it grounded the electrics of the aircraft whilst sitting on the ground.

 

 

 

 

Chris

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi,

thank you all for the informations. I hoped to complete the model before it became too cold to go in my attic for airbrushing, but now it seems that I have to stop it till next spring. 

[dogsbody]

9 hours ago, Massimo Tessitori said:

Hi,

thank you all for the informations. I hoped to complete the model before it became too cold to go in my attic for airbrushing, but now it seems that I have to stop it till next spring. 

 

Do you live in Canada, too? I know that cold weather is on it's way up here. So far, we've only had one light frost, but as was said in Game of Thrones: Winter's coming!

 

 

Chris

[Massimo Tessitori]

No, I live in Italy, I don't suffer for cold but i suspect that there is something in the attic that isn't well for my back while I'm resting there for long. probably humidity. The bad thing is that I don't feel uncomfortable while being there but only after.

I can easiy heat the place where I made some building works, but it's more difficult for the airbrushing position.