Why did the French design such ugly planes prior to and into WWII?

[alt-92]

On 9/21/2020 at 4:23 PM, Aardvark said:

if I'm not alone, need to create an association "Victims of FROG D.520"?

FROG was a bit too early for me, I grew up with Matchbox, Airfix and Hasegawa 1970/80s kits.
But how about the MS.406? The short, dumpy, wannabe D.520?

[TonyOD]

On 9/16/2020 at 7:18 PM, fightersweep said:

 

I'm off to Kingkit to buy one of these beauties for the Heller GB! Marvelous!

My pick for the HCGB too. I'm quite partial to the Amiot.

[Aardvark]

59 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

But how about the MS.406? The short, dumpy, wannabe D.520?

Agreed , but I got acquainted with model D.520 earlier than with M.S. 406, because D.520 was produced by a factory in my city. M.S.406 I'm glued latter, of course as and D.520 I don't paint this models because the only available special model paint for children at that time was silver in aluminum tubes inside the VEB Plastikart kits.

🤗

About M.S.406 and D.520, in fact it's constructively

different aircraft, D.520 it's all metallic, 

 monocoque

construction, 

M.S.406 it's 

mixed, frame

 construction, but of course M.S.406  for these reasons, it is cheaper and easier to manufacture.

The British Hurricane and Spitfire are the absolute analogue of this pair of M.S. 406 and D.520!  But compare the elegance of the Hurricane and MS.406 design as well as the D.520 and Spitfire! Soviet also have analogue 

 Hurrican/ MS.406. It was Yak-1 with

mixed, frame

 construction but with aerodynamic close to Spitfire, which is best seen in the Yakovlev I-30

cannon version with the metal wing:

which, like Hurricane and Spitfire, is more elegant  than M.S. 406. And what is most interesting, in fact, Yakovlev's planes had a further development of French engines!

 

 

B.R.

Serge

 

[alt-92]

Yup. Hispano-Suiza 12Y, license built as Klimov M-100, then taken a tad (   )  further as the M/VK-105.
Shame really that the French didn't get further with the 12Z engine. At 36 Litres, it's comparable with the RR Griffon, and could potentially have wiped the floor with a DB601.

 

[Aardvark]

45 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

Yup. Hispano-Suiza 12Y, license built as Klimov M-100, then taken a tad (   )  further as the M/VK-105.

But what  You want, who has his own good engines and his own design school with long-term traditions has everything!  This applies to any industry, be it aircraft, shipbuilding, automotive or space.  In the USSR, it was all from scratch, because Tsarist Russia did not have its own aircraft engines, so it is natural that before the war the only independently made Soviet engine was AM-34 and its derivatives, the rest were French, American and early German engines, Merlin as far as I am  I understand the Soviet industry could not master, too precise, sensitive and stressful motor turned out to be.

It is not clear why the French, having their own original engines, a developed aviation industry that occupied a leading position, even in the most advanced field, which are fighters, did not create fighters of the most elegant and best design?

Engine nacelle M.S.406 & D.520 do not have the most aesthetic shape in comparison with other samples, such as those already mentioned Spitfire, Hurricane, Yak-1 e.t.c.?

 

B.R.

Serge

[Lightningboy2000]

Eh? Ugly, that's a matter of opinion isn't it? Ugly plus airplane equals character, typical gallic ways.

 

Martin

[Aardvark]

2 hours ago, Lightningboy2000 said:

 equals character, typical gallic ways.

Genius! 😁 You gave me an absolutely incredible version!  First, I was going to analyze the ethnic composition of French aircraft designers, depending on their belonging to one or another ethnic group of the gallic! Because as we know from Wikipedia:

"The French people, especially the native speakers of langues d'oil from northern and central France, are primarily the descendants of Gauls and Romans (or Gallo-Romans, western European Celtic and Italic peoples), as well as Germanic peoples such as the Franks, the Visigoths, the Suebi and the Burgundians who settled Gaul from east of the Rhine after the fall of the Roman Empire. The Norse also settled in Normandy in the 10th century and contributed ancestry to the Normans. Furthermore, regional ethnic minorities also exist within France that have distinct lineages, languages and cultures such as Bretons in Brittany, Occitans in Occitania, Basques in the French Basque Country, Catalans in northern Catalonia, Germans in Alsace and Flemings in French Flanders."

Thus, perhaps there may be a relationship between the ethnicity of the designer and the type, aesthetics of the aircraft?

But I dismissed this thought as it smacks of ideas of racial discrimination ...besides, I realized that my knowledge is simply not enough to test this hypothesis, although of course if someone proves this hypothesis, then this is a completely finished dissertation of a doctor of sciences! 😁

 

Then I thought, but maybe during that period there were some events in culture and art, away from which the aircraft designers and military of France could not stay?

 

And bingo!😉😎

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrealism

"Artists painted unnerving, illogical scenes, sometimes with photographic precision, creating strange creatures from everyday objects, and developing painting techniques that allowed the unconscious to express itself."

 

Years active: 1920s–1950s

Country- France,Belgium

 

Looking at all these strange paintings by the founders of Impressionism,

you begin to understand their influence on the French aircraft industry!

😉😁😁

At the same time, where they did not succumb to the influence of surrealism, where there was classicism

and socialist realism

(b.w.   this picture Alexander Deinego  "Young Designer" in socialist realism style

is estimated by Sotheby's at £ 2,000,000)

as in the USSR, we see quite healthy planes!

😁😁😁

(Recourse Wikipedia and

http://www.theartnewspaper.ru/posts/2292/ )

 

So maybe all these strange, ugly French planes are just a reflection of the tendencies of the art and culture of the time?🤔😉😎

 

B.R.

Serge

 

P.S. Despite the humorous nature of my post, which does not pretend to be any seriousness, I must admit that Kazimir Malevich, widely known for his painting "Black Square", developed camouflages for Red Army tanks, in particular for Mark V, one of his camouflage schemes is in model 1 /  35 produced by "InterRus". The developers of the model told me about this in the 90s.

 

 

[72modeler]

23 hours ago, TonyOD said:

I'm off to Kingkit to buy one of these beauties

I'm sorry, but it looks like a multi-engined trolley car! 

Mike

[TonyOD]

8 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

I'm sorry, but it looks like a multi-engined trolley car! 

Mike

Separated at birth?

 

[JohnT]

On 21/09/2020 at 13:35, Mike said:

 You know how I love the weird and ugly  

Can I come round and watch as you try and explain that comment to Mrs Mike? 

[Mike]

31 minutes ago, JohnT said:

Can I come round and watch as you try and explain that comment to Mrs Mike? 

You know her - she's used to me by now

[JPuente54]

Hey! Wait a minute! Wasn't there a thread about ugly medium bombers being built by the RAF and the Luftwaffe some months back? This actually had some good questions and some good humor(humour for all our good UK members).

Joe

[corsaircorp]

Tsss Tsss Gentlemen Gentlemen !!

Where are you going ??

Calling this ugly ??? 

Go wash your mouth and Repeat after me " These are interesting design with a strong character"

See how so far we still chat laugh and banter today... Thanks to these "Childs only a mother could love"

How's possible that our distinguished good taste for lovely aircraft did'nt react to this thread yet !!

I mean @Martian

The Blackburn preservation society will surely raise a case now...

Thanks you all chaps, I've had a good laugh !!

Now Cousin @Corsairfoxfouruncle how did you let them include our beloved bent wing bird in all this...

Even the XF4U is a good looking aircraft...

Well time for me to go at work...

Sincerely.

CC

[alt-92]

On 9/21/2020 at 1:47 PM, Aardvark said:

But not without exceptions!  Still, the long tradition of designing ugly  made itself felt:

I've just had a look around for this aviatory Hunchback of Notre Dame - would you believe this LeO 50/SE.100 from the same designers as the Lioré et Olivier 451?

Apparently, it was much faster than the Potez 630 and more heavily armed. And with tricycle undercarriage.

[Aardvark]

43 minutes ago, corsaircorp said:

Where are you going ??

Calling this ugly ??? 

 

But isn't this American work of the B-57G?

😉😁😎

46 minutes ago, corsaircorp said:

How's possible that our distinguished good taste for lovely aircraft did'nt react to this thread yet !!

 Because formally this is an off-topic for this topic 😁😛.... but mind You, I tried to be objective, as evidenced by my references to Polikarpov TB-2, Grigorovich TB-5, La-200B, etc. 😉😎😁

25 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

And with tricycle undercarriage.

Yeah, in main wheel inside fin on tail! An outstanding idea in terms of aerodynamics, which (I'm more than sure) led to the need for a very rigid fin with tail and as a consequence of the heavier structure and possibly flutter.  I can only remember one such decision:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockwell_XFV-12

he is still handsome!

😉😁

 

B.R.

Serge

[Aardvark]

36 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

I've just had a look around for this aviatory Hunchback of Notre Dame - would you believe this LeO 50/SE.100 from the same designers as the Lioré et Olivier 451?

Absinthe

influence on this designer, only that! 😉😁

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absinthe

"It rose to great popularity as an alcoholic drink in late 19th- and early 20th-century France, particularly among Parisian artists and writers. The consumption of absinthe was opposed by social conservatives and prohibitionists, partly due to its association with bohemian culture."

These designers are still lucky! 😁 Under the influence of absinthe, they only made this

LeO 50/SE.100, but they could, like Vincent Van Gogh,

go crazy and cut off their ear!

 

B.R.

Serge

 

[Johnny Tip]

1 hour ago, Aardvark said:

It looks like a Batwing-mobile-coptrosity... but for the colour.

 

I think there are a lot of "interesting" plane designs made by all major producing countries, but the French had some exceptionally characteristic ones in their bomber squadrons... 

I wouldn't call a Phantom II "good-looking", but it seems to show its purpose. The Amiot 143... funny plane, but please don't send it into battle.

[corsaircorp]

Gents !

It is time for a lawyer intervention....

I call lawyer @Moa at the bar...

Should this Gentleman show us his cabinet of curiosities...

You'll see that civilians can also show some fantasy....

 

I've never had any doubt about your neutrality my Dear @Aardvark

Very glad that you shared these pics of little known russian designs..

 

My second favoured aircraft, which also share bent wings, is the F-4

Nicknamed the Rhino by her crews, or double ugly by bystanders... 

What a pity...

Psss, Please, don't tell my wife that my 2 favourites aircraft are considered so poorly....

Enough arguments with her for this year...

Sincerely.

CC

 

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

4 hours ago, corsaircorp said:

Now Cousin @Corsairfoxfouruncle how did you let them include our beloved bent wing bird in all this...

Even the XF4U is a good looking aircraft...

I must have missed that post ? 

[Lightningboy2000]

On 9/23/2020 at 1:39 AM, Aardvark said:

Genius! 😁 You gave me an absolutely incredible version!  First, I was going to analyze the ethnic composition of French aircraft designers, depending on their belonging to one or another ethnic group of the gallic! Because as we know from Wikipedia:

"The French people, especially the native speakers of langues d'oil from northern and central France, are primarily the descendants of Gauls and Romans (or Gallo-Romans, western European Celtic and Italic peoples), as well as Germanic peoples such as the Franks, the Visigoths, the Suebi and the Burgundians who settled Gaul from east of the Rhine after the fall of the Roman Empire. The Norse also settled in Normandy in the 10th century and contributed ancestry to the Normans. Furthermore, regional ethnic minorities also exist within France that have distinct lineages, languages and cultures such as Bretons in Brittany, Occitans in Occitania, Basques in the French Basque Country, Catalans in northern Catalonia, Germans in Alsace and Flemings in French Flanders."

Thus, perhaps there may be a relationship between the ethnicity of the designer and the type, aesthetics of the aircraft?

But I dismissed this thought as it smacks of ideas of racial discrimination ...besides, I realized that my knowledge is simply not enough to test this hypothesis, although of course if someone proves this hypothesis, then this is a completely finished dissertation of a doctor of sciences! 😁

 

Then I thought, but maybe during that period there were some events in culture and art, away from which the aircraft designers and military of France could not stay?

 

And bingo!😉😎

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrealism

"Artists painted unnerving, illogical scenes, sometimes with photographic precision, creating strange creatures from everyday objects, and developing painting techniques that allowed the unconscious to express itself."

 

Years active: 1920s–1950s

Country- France,Belgium

 

Looking at all these strange paintings by the founders of Impressionism,

you begin to understand their influence on the French aircraft industry!

😉😁😁

At the same time, where they did not succumb to the influence of surrealism, where there was classicism

and socialist realism

(b.w.   this picture Alexander Deinego  "Young Designer" in socialist realism style

is estimated by Sotheby's at £ 2,000,000)

as in the USSR, we see quite healthy planes!

😁😁😁

(Recourse Wikipedia and

http://www.theartnewspaper.ru/posts/2292/ )

 

So maybe all these strange, ugly French planes are just a reflection of the tendencies of the art and culture of the time?🤔😉😎

 

B.R.

Serge

 

P.S. Despite the humorous nature of my post, which does not pretend to be any seriousness, I must admit that Kazimir Malevich, widely known for his painting "Black Square", developed camouflages for Red Army tanks, in particular for Mark V, one of his camouflage schemes is in model 1 /  35 produced by "InterRus". The developers of the model told me about this in the 90s.

 

 

OK, French plus design equals stylish. 

Having done my art & graphic design degree I didn't know that of Malevich.

I strongly believe that French aircraft design can be compared to French typography. Just look at any gallic typo & you know instinctively it's French.

[Aardvark]

28 minutes ago, corsaircorp said:

It is time for a lawyer intervention....

I call lawyer @Moa at the bar...

Should this Gentleman show us his cabinet of curiosities...

You'll see that civilians can also show some fantasy....

You entered from the joker!

😉😁😁

 Indeed, it is difficult to compete with @Moa, even though I have in my collection all these crazy Luft'46, La-200B, Yak-36 (b.w.!) etc.

 

( @Aardvark waving a white T-shirt! Do not shoot!)

😁😁😁

42 minutes ago, corsaircorp said:

I've never had any doubt about your neutrality my Dear @Aardvark

Very glad that you shared these pics of little known russian designs..

No neutrality! 

Objectivity and a heightened sense of beauty with perfectionism complex! 😉😁😁😎

29 minutes ago, Lightningboy2000 said:

OK, French plus design equals stylish. 

I would put it differently:

"Impressionism & Absinthe - 

 God-father's   French aircraft design styles in  between the IWW and IIWW!"

😁😁

 

39 minutes ago, Lightningboy2000 said:

Having done my art & graphic design degree I didn't know that of Malevich

 About the fact that Malevich worked on camouflages for the Red Army?  Yes, it's amazing and little known ... but if Disney made nose art for USAF, then why can't other artists do something similar, as example ?

In addition, if tea sets were made according to Malevich's sketches:

why could not tanks camouflage according to his sketches?

😉😎

3 hours ago, Johnny Tip said:

4 hours ago, Aardvark said:

It looks like a Batwing-mobile-coptrosity... but for the colour.

The full-scale mockup was in the classic Navy paint Gull grey/white.  By the way, Anigrand (Resin kit) and Whirlybird - now Pegasus? (Vacuum kit) makes this model in  72nd scale. I have Whirlybird.

 

B.R.

Serge

 

[alt-92]

2 hours ago, Corsairfoxfouruncle said:

I must have missed that post ? 

Merely to compliment the racer-like looks on the Corsair   

[Space Ranger]

2 hours ago, corsaircorp said:

Gents !

It is time for a lawyer intervention....

I call lawyer @Moa at the bar...

 

MOA IS A LAWYER???

[John Masters]

20 minutes ago, Space Ranger said:

MOA IS A LAWYER???

I thought he is a painter?

[stever219]

Even the XFV-12A fails to make the F-35 look good