B24 liberator colours

[neil5208]

Evening all

Just bought the print scale decals 72234 sheet but there are no paint codes on the instructions! Would anyone know the shade of blue required for option 1 or 3. Been searching for pictures but been unable to find any of this two.

 

Thanks

[alt-92]

The ability to answer your question is severely hampered by the effort to have to search for the decal sheet and then finding out the number you've given is for an F.2B WWI in PC10.

So maybe, make a picture of the paper sheet in the set and post it, so we know what we're talking about exactly?

[dogsbody]

Yeah. I just found the same thing. A picture or the correct number would be nice.

 

 

 

Chris

[neil5208]

Very true, will get a picture up tomorrow

[treker_ed]

I think I managed to find it - digits have been transposed.

 

@neil5208 is this the sheet : http://www.printscale.org/product_798.html ?

 

If so - I'm struggling to find any images of these aircraft. I have found an illustration of the 3rd aircraft - i think it is actually NMF with a painted underside - not a light blue fuselage at all.

It's the 7th illustration down the page, and when you click on the image, a large picture of the nose appears, and would appear to be NMF ; https://www.markstyling.com/b24s.05.htm

[Sky dancer]

Hi Neil5208,

 

The undersides of both Option 1 & Option 3 are black, the blue shade that appears to be shown in the instructions that Treker_ed looks to be whatever printing process is going on there. As Treker_ed states, the rest of the airframe is NMF.

 

I can't see any mention of the sources that Print Scale used for the instructions, but the profiles look very familiar - I think they may have used Osprey's B-24 Liberator Units of the CBI (Osprey Combat Aircraft No.87) as their source.

 

Unfortunately I can't find my copy at present, so I can't double check.

 

Option 1 - Quick trawl of photos of "Stripped for Action" of the 425th BS show that the undersides of this aircraft are definitely gloss black.

 

Option 3 - Same quick trawl for "Taylor Maid" of the 375th BS, photos not as conclusive - strongly suspect they are gloss black, but can't be certain - could be matt black.

 

HTH.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by Sky dancer
Updated info.

[don f]

Hi neil5208,

 

Here's an answer from a new guy. First post to this DG. I guess that it's acceptable to link images, so here's Stripped for Action. These are from b24bestweb great source for B-24 photos.

 

There's  more of this aircraft at link above. Take note that this aircraft has ECM antennae under the fuselage. These are the fishhook shaped antennae under forward fuselage. And nice white wall tire and scooter. The lack of top turret and the name may be an indication of an EW type mission.  The pilot's windscreen is broken, reportedly due to a bird strike.  To make an accurate model, if important for your project, you'll  have some changes to make regardless of scale or kit. This will be a fun project in 1/72.

 

Here's Taylor Maid before the shark mouth was painted:

 

 

More images at bestweb link above.

 

Taylor Maid is a little easier to build, especially in 1/72. The Hasegawa B-24J kit would be my pick as it has nice turrets.  Minicraft/Academy kit will work, if you don't mind the turrets.  The spare Emerson nose turret from the Hasegawa B-24D is a welcome improvement to the Minicraft kit.  Both aircraft had gloss black undersides and OD anti-glare panels.  The stripes on the rudders were most likely blue - white - blue. Which blue? Your choice is as good as anyone's.

 

Don

 

P.S. -  This book is worth reading if you are interested in the mostly forgotten CBI,  

Carroll V. Glines, Chennault's Forgotten Warriors: The Saga of the 308th Bomb Group in China

 

Edited September 13, 2020 by don f

[neil5208]

Thanks guys, I think I'll get the cbi book mentioned by Don and find some picture of EW modified aircraft. I have time this one wont be started this year... maybe

Edited September 13, 2020 by neil5208

[Troy Smith]

10 hours ago, don f said:

The stripes on the rudders were most likely blue - white - blue. Which blue? Your choice is as good as anyone's.

from the photo, as it looks the same tone as the star and bars, and from available paint, Insignia blue would be a good bet.

[EwenS]

18 hours ago, Sky dancer said:

Hi Neil5208,

 

The undersides of both Option 1 & Option 3 are black, the blue shade that appears to be shown in the instructions that Treker_ed looks to be whatever printing process is going on there. As Treker_ed states, the rest of the airframe is NMF.

 

I can't see any mention of the sources that Print Scale used for the instructions, but the profiles look very familiar - I think they may have used Osprey's B-24 Liberator Units of the CBI (Osprey Combat Aircraft No.87) as their source.

 

Unfortunately I can't find my copy at present, so I can't double check.

 

Option 1 - Quick trawl of photos of "Stripped for Action" of the 425th BS show that the undersides of this aircraft are definitely gloss black.

 

Option 3 - Same quick trawl for "Taylor Maid" of the 375th BS, photos not as conclusive - strongly suspect they are gloss black, but can't be certain - could be matt black.

 

HTH.

 

 

 

 

I've had a look at the Osprey B-24 Liberator Units of the CBI. There is colour artwork for 6 aircraft with black / blue undersides. In most of these the artwork looks blue on my .pdf copy but the notes say different. For two the colour is given as high gloss black. For the other four it is matt black. This is what the notes say.

 

B-24M-20-FO 44-51054 Flame of the Squadron 493rd BS, 7th BG, 10th AF high gloss black. It also notes that the 493rd painted a number of its aircraft this way.

http://www.b24bestweb.com/flameofthesquadron3.htm

 

B-24J-205-Co 44-41294 Taylor Maid 374th BS 308th BG matt black "for night sea sweeps". America's Global Bomber has 2 photos of her. No help with the underside colour but the lady's underwear changed over time!

http://www.b24bestweb.com/taylormaid1.htm

 

B-24M-15-CO 44-42133 Miss Lace 374th BS 308th BG matt black

http://www.b24bestweb.com/misslace-v1-2.htm

 

B-24J-175-CO 44-40584 King's X 375th BS 308th BG matt black. America's Global Bomber just has this as "black".

http://www.b24bestweb.com/kingsx1.htm

 

B-24L-1-CO 44-41427 Cocky Bobby 425th BS 308 BG 14th AF matt black

http://www.b24bestweb.com/cockybobby2.htm

 

B-24M-30-FO 44-51508 Stripped for Action 425th BS 308 BG 14th AF high gloss black

http://www.b24bestweb.com/strippedforaction-v2-2.htm

 

There is one point to note re the above 6 airframes. Flame of the Squadron was delivered to China in May 1945 and Stripped for Action arrived in June 1945 and the latter was painted in theatre (all per the artwork notes), presumably at a depot in India. The other aircraft had been in service for longer. So maybe there was a change from matt to gloss? Theoretically the gloss paint should have been in the stores since Sept / Oct 1944 as it was needed for the P-61s that arrived in the CBI around then.

 

More with "black" undersides per America's Global Bomber.

B-24M 44-50803 374th BS 308th BG Yellow Fever.

http://www.b24bestweb.com/yellowfever1.htm

B-24J 44-40779 Willie Mak'er 308th BG

http://www.b24bestweb.com/williemaker1.htm

[neil5208]

Thanks EwenS, just ordered that book. Does it have any pics/diagrams of the EW atennas

[EwenS]

There were two ECM bumps, one in front of and one behind the nose wheel as here. No drawings I’m afraid.

http://www.b24bestweb.com/strippedforaction-v2-4.htm

 

Some aircraft had an H shaped ECM antenna low on the fuselage side, but I’m not seeing that on Stripped for Action. The ECM fits in 308th BG seem to have varied from aircraft to aircraft and probably over time.

 

A couple of other points about this aircraft from “Consolidated Mess” with it being a B-24M-30-FO, the last block to be built by Ford. The engine nacelles are 5.25” longer (the extra length is immediately behind the cowling) than every Liberator model prior to the Ford built M-20 aircraft and there were curved turbo hoods on the ends of the turbocharger exhausts. Also a V shaped windscreen fitted as will be clear from the photos. Not sure what you are going to use as your base model.

[neil5208]

I have the Academy/minicraft  B24H kit. Going of the difference it seam the nose and tail turret are a different type, but as the EW aircraft had the guns removed this will reduce the focus on those areas

[EwenS]

4 hours ago, neil5208 said:

I have the Academy/minicraft  B24H kit. Going of the difference it seam the nose and tail turret are a different type, but as the EW aircraft had the guns removed this will reduce the focus on those areas

Couple of comments

 

1. B-24 history is complicated and confusing. Watch out for changes other than those I have already noted between the B-24H as represented by the kit and the B-24M-30-FO you intend modelling. I recommend reading “Consolidated Mess”.

2. Maybe I’m picking you up wrongly, but the lack of armament is not connected to it being an “EW aircraft”. In June 1945 most of the 308th BG, including the 425th BS, was moved back from China to India and began to run supplies across the “Hump” into China. Armament wasn’t needed as there was no opposition while engaged on this task and it allowed the aircraft to carry more supplies. http://www.usaaf-in-cbi.com/308th_web/index.htm This supply effort was needed both to supply the medium bombers and fighters heavily engaged in China and to build up supplies ahead of the move of 10th AF from India to China planned for later in 1945.

 

 

[neil5208]

1 hour ago, EwenS said:

Couple of comments

 

1. B-24 history is complicated and confusing. Watch out for changes other than those I have already noted between the B-24H as represented by the kit and the B-24M-30-FO you intend modelling. I recommend reading “Consolidated Mess”.

2. Maybe I’m picking you up wrongly, but the lack of armament is not connected to it being an “EW aircraft”. In June 1945 most of the 308th BG, including the 425th BS, was moved back from China to India and began to run supplies across the “Hump” into China. Armament wasn’t needed as there was no opposition while engaged on this task and it allowed the aircraft to carry more supplies. http://www.usaaf-in-cbi.com/308th_web/index.htm This supply effort was needed both to supply the medium bombers and fighters heavily engaged in China and to build up supplies ahead of the move of 10th AF from India to China planned for later in 1945.

 

 

 

 

On ‎9‎/‎13‎/‎2020 at 3:34 AM, don f said:

Hi neil5208,

 

Here's an answer from a new guy. First post to this DG. I guess that it's acceptable to link images, so here's Stripped for Action. These are from b24bestweb great source for B-24 photos.

 

There's  more of this aircraft at link above. Take note that this aircraft has ECM antennae under the fuselage. These are the fishhook shaped antennae under forward fuselage. And nice white wall tire and scooter. The lack of top turret and the name may be an indication of an EW type mission.  The pilot's windscreen is broken, reportedly due to a bird strike.  To make an accurate model, if important for your project, you'll  have some changes to make regardless of scale or kit. This will be a fun project in 1/72.

 

Going off the picture you linked and by Don f above that Stripped for action had the EW antenna and forward guns removed at the same time, perhaps this is how it looked during the supply flights. I presume there was minimal crew, pilot/navigator/flight engineer and no need for gunners on supply flights

[EwenS]

There is still an ECM antenna visible in the above photo. A clear plastic "bubble" covering an aerial of some kind between the bomb aimer's window and the nosewheel. One of the other photos I posted shows the second one aft of the nosewheel. Elsewhere the are described as "fishhook ECM antennas".

 

What I'm not seeing, and which may not have been fiteed to this aircraft but was on others, is an H shaped aerial for an SCR-729 ECM set (which was used for other purposes under different designations).

[don f]

Hi neil5208,

 

I don't  know how much effort you plan for your Minicraft B-24 project. In case you want to make the fishhook antenna, here's the antenna AS-69. The antenna will be small in 1/72. It should be easy the make from round stock with the clear dome vac or smash formed.

 

The AS-69 was used with jamming transmitters such as APT-2.

 

Don

 

 

 

[neil5208]

On 9/20/2020 at 8:40 PM, don f said:

Hi neil5208,

 

I don't  know how much effort you plan for your Minicraft B-24 project. In case you want to make the fishhook antenna, here's the antenna AS-69. The antenna will be small in 1/72. It should be easy the make from round stock with the clear dome vac or smash formed.

 

The AS-69 was used with jamming transmitters such as APT-2.

 

Don

 

 

 

Thanks don f for the picture, very helpful. Received the book I ordered and it turns out Striped for Action was delivered just as the bombing missions came to an end and was only used for hump missions. All weapons and armour plate removed so more stores/fuel could be carried

[Gmat]

Niel5208. the Academy B-24H isn't really an H as B-24Hs would be a Ford built B-24. Ford manufactured B-24 with the nose turret that had a s-shaped fairing around the nose turret, but a better clue is that the rear of the bombardier's lower nose window is angled back. Those made by Consolidated have a straight up and down back. But Ford also produced knock down kits for other builders to assemble, which may confuse things. So you are limited to the B-24-CO or Consolidated manufactured planes, or you must do some modifications to your kit. The reason why Minicraft B-24s have different sized nose and rear turrets is because the rear fuselage is underscale so it is too narrow. The turrets should be the same size.  

The presence of the H antenna indicates that a thimble radome radar was present. The Minicraft PB4Y-1 kit has the radome. The radome could be in the former ball gunner's position or behind the nose gear on the left side. RAAF late model B-24s had the latter position. It is easier to see as their aircraft were natural metal, not hidden by black bottoms like the CBI based ones. 

http://www.adf-serials.com.au/2a72.htm

 

As an aside, there were a lot more radar equipped B-24s in the Pacific than usually realized. The SB-24Ds anti-shipping bombers were some of the first, but the 11th BG had B-24s with the antennas under the cockpit. They were often censored in photos and are 4 antennas in a horizontal row. Later they had later model B-24s with the familiar H type antennas. So any Pacific B-24 with those antennas had a radome somewhere for radar bombing, usually anti-shipping. They were referred to as SCR-717.

 

https://www.sportscards.com/item/usaaf-ww2-b-24-bomber-smokey-stover-8x10-nose-art-photo-11th-bg-7th-af-wwii/253612067674/

 

Under sea search radars.

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/Radar/index.html

 

 

Hope that this is useful.

Apologies for some bad news, though. 

Grant

Edited September 24, 2020 by Gmat

[neil5208]

On 9/25/2020 at 12:20 AM, Gmat said:

Niel5208. the Academy B-24H isn't really an H as B-24Hs would be a Ford built B-24. Ford manufactured B-24 with the nose turret that had a s-shaped fairing around the nose turret, but a better clue is that the rear of the bombardier's lower nose window is angled back. Those made by Consolidated have a straight up and down back. But Ford also produced knock down kits for other builders to assemble, which may confuse things. So you are limited to the B-24-CO or Consolidated manufactured planes, or you must do some modifications to your kit. The reason why Minicraft B-24s have different sized nose and rear turrets is because the rear fuselage is underscale so it is too narrow. The turrets should be the same size.  

The presence of the H antenna indicates that a thimble radome radar was present. The Minicraft PB4Y-1 kit has the radome. The radome could be in the former ball gunner's position or behind the nose gear on the left side. RAAF late model B-24s had the latter position. It is easier to see as their aircraft were natural metal, not hidden by black bottoms like the CBI based ones. 

http://www.adf-serials.com.au/2a72.htm

 

As an aside, there were a lot more radar equipped B-24s in the Pacific than usually realized. The SB-24Ds anti-shipping bombers were some of the first, but the 11th BG had B-24s with the antennas under the cockpit. They were often censored in photos and are 4 antennas in a horizontal row. Later they had later model B-24s with the familiar H type antennas. So any Pacific B-24 with those antennas had a radome somewhere for radar bombing, usually anti-shipping. They were referred to as SCR-717.

 

https://www.sportscards.com/item/usaaf-ww2-b-24-bomber-smokey-stover-8x10-nose-art-photo-11th-bg-7th-af-wwii/253612067674/

 

Under sea search radars.

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/Radar/index.html

 

 

Hope that this is useful.

Apologies for some bad news, though. 

Grant

Hi Grant

I understand what you mean ref the bomb aimers glass and forward turret fairing but I not at home for another week so I cant check the turrets but I was under the impression that the B24M went back to the earlier turrets due to a shortage of the light weight ones.

I should be able to modify the nose parts easily enough and see if I can find the scale planes in 1/72.

[neil5208]

Just got back and checked out the kit and I dont think I can modify it to a B24M to a good standard so I will go for Taylor Maid instead.

[don f]

On 10/8/2020 at 12:59 AM, neil5208 said:

Just got back and checked out the kit and I dont think I can modify it to a B24M to a good standard so I will go for Taylor Maid instead.

Niel5208,

 

A great choice and the black underside saves you some work with a NMF finish. If you have not built an Academy/Minicraft B-24 kit, take care when assembling the wings.  The wings will take on a downward bow unless you jig or hold them flat during assembly. I've built the D, H and J versions of the kit and all had the same problem with wings. Annoying to find and fix after you've assembled the wings to the fuselage. Ron's Resins had a set of engine nacelles to replace the undersized kit nacelles. Hard to find now.

 

Another quick fix is installing a spreader into the rear fuselage below the horizontal stabilizer.  This reduces the gap between the fuselage and the stabilizer. Also, make sure to adequately align and adhere, or reinforce, the forward fuselage section at the slanted join line. This is best done before joining the fuselage halves together.

 

If you intend to replace the poorly done kit turrets, use the extra turrets from the Hasegawa B-24D kit, if you have one. If not, trade with someone for the parts. Or perhaps some generous modeler will give them to you. You will need an A-15 front turret, an A-6B type rear turret and a "high hat" top turret clear dome. Squadron makes a vac high hat dome.

 

I abandoned the Squadron vac turret replacements when the Hasegawa B-24D appeared. The Hasegawa B-24D kits have the wrong tail turret. The kit provides an A-6B, when you need the A-6. But, on the upside, the kit provides two extra turrets, a spare A-6B and an injection molded A-15. Sorry my kits are packed away so I can't provide you pics. According to my notes, the turret parts for the A-15 are D3, F17, Q16, Q23 X 2, R13, R16, R19, R28 & R31. So you can use the kit A-6B for a B-24D and have two spare turrets. The Hasegawa A-15 is the only injection molded A-15 with a one piece clear dome. The Hasegawa turrets will fit on the Academy B-24 kits. Take note that you will need to shim the rear fuselage of the Academy kit to accommodate the Hasegawa turret.

 

Hope to see photos of your WIP.

 

Don

 

 

[Jackson Duvalier]

8 hours ago, don f said:

Ron's Resins had a set of engine nacelles to replace the undersized kit nacelles. Hard to find now.

The new and improved High Planes outfit, now operating out of Singapore, has the moulds and probably still offer them.  I bought two sets via that route circa 2016, and they are... meh.  The Ron's Resins master was quite clearly based on the Airfix plastic, enhanced with casting flaws (both innies and outies), overseas shipping, and the fun of vague fit and mixed-media construction.  You'd be better off robbing cowlings from an Airfix B-24J, at least then you'd be gluing cleanly moulded polystyrene to polystyrene.  

 

8 hours ago, don f said:

I abandoned the Squadron vac turret replacements when the Hasegawa B-24D appeared. The Hasegawa B-24D kits have the wrong tail turret. The kit provides an A-6B, when you need the A-6. But, on the upside, the kit provides two extra turrets, a spare A-6B and an injection molded A-15. Sorry my kits are packed away so I can't provide you pics. According to my notes, the turret parts for the A-15 are D3, F17, Q16, Q23 X 2, R13, R16, R19, R28 & R31. So you can use the kit A-6B for a B-24D and have two spare turrets. The Hasegawa A-15 is the only injection molded A-15 with a one piece clear dome. The Hasegawa turrets will fit on the Academy B-24 kits. Take note that you will need to shim the rear fuselage of the Academy kit to accommodate the Hasegawa turret.

IIRC, Eduard included previously-untooled turrets in their "Riders in the Sky" boxing of the Hasegawa plastic.  Can anyone confirm?  Are they extraneous to the RAF Coastal Command birds?

 

I want to get my hands on a set or two of these if possible as I have Liberators to build, but I'm mostly undecided on the exact prototypes, and I'd like to have all turret options on the table.

Edited October 10, 2020 by Jackson Duvalier

[Chuck1945]

10 hours ago, Jackson Duvalier said:

 

 

IIRC, Eduard included previously-untooled turrets in their "Riders in the Sky" boxing of the Hasegawa plastic.  Can anyone confirm?  Are they extraneous to the RAF Coastal Command birds?

 

Yes the added runners in the Eduard ‘Riders in the Sky’ boxing does contain the Consolidated A6A tail turret, and the four gun B-P turret. It also included the thin props used on earlier B-24s. Theses parts have available separately as Overtrees, but I have no idea about current availability

[don f]

58 minutes ago, Chuck1945 said:

Yes the added runners in the Eduard ‘Riders in the Sky’ boxing does contain the Consolidated A6A tail turret, and the four gun B-P turret. It also included the thin props used on earlier B-24s. Theses parts have available separately as Overtrees, but I have no idea about current availability

The overtrees provide much needed parts for various versions of the B-24. In addition to the props and two turrets you mention, the A-6 rear turret modified for use as a front turret and a high hat dome are included.  The three turrets and high hat dome have not been previously provided in any other kit, as far as I know.  The same overtrees were provided in both 2121 and 2123 kits.  Please correct me if memory fails.

 

A wide variety of B-24's can be built using the overtrees and the Hasegawa or Academy/Minicraft kits.  The parts specifically for Liberator III, V, VI and VIII should work on the Academy/Minicraft kit.  A correct Ford nose is all I need now.

 

Don