Mitsubishi A5M2b Claude

[2996 Victor]

Dear All,

 

this is one of those overlapping sort of subjects that belongs in the late Inter-War period but which I think, and please correct me if I'm wrong, continued in front-line service into the early World War 2 period.

 

Earlier today there arrived from the Ukraine a box containing a Clear Prop 1/72 scale kit for the early Mitsubishi A5M2b, allied reporting name "Claude", this being the "Early" variant with the sliding cockpit canopy:

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Having opened the box for a brief look, the first thing that struck me is how small it is! It really is a petite little aeroplane. The mouldings appear well-detailed and crisp, with little or no visible flash, there's a resin engine and a small etched brass fret, and markings for four different aircraft. The instructions appear very well laid out, and all-in-all it promises to be a nice build.

 

Now, my main question is this: would this version, i.e. the "Early" A5M2b with the sliding canopy (rather than the fully-open cockpit both preceded and succeeded it), have seen active service during World War 2, and if so, where and with which unit(s)? Or for a WW2 aircraft, would the "Late" A5M2b version finished as an A5M4 be a better bet?

 

Also, and this is a looooooong shot, as a child some forty-odd years ago, a school friend of mine had a book in which was a profile of an A5M Claude which captured my imagination. I cannot remember the book's title or publisher, but I remember the aircraft in question being depicted in an overall royal blue colour with a red tail section. Was this a figment of the artist's imagination, or would such a scheme be plausible?

 

Many thanks for any advice!

 

Kind regards,

 

Mark

[Old Man]

A5M-4 machines saw some use early in WWII. Some were on light carriers as late as the Coral Sea battle. Some were on Rabaul used as 'night fighters'.

 

A late open cockpit A5M-2 could probably pass as an M-4 if not looked at sharply.

 

The red tail was a Navy identification marking in the China theater, and removed from machines later used elsewhere. The 'bl;ue' you recall might have been a poor attempt at showing a bare metal finish (actually aluminum lacquer was applied over the metal). I have never heard of blue being used overall. There is some possibility of a sort of 'golden' appearance over-all, as late types got a coating of a varnish that had an amber shade, and in some light condition this appeared to give a tint to the machine.

 

[Jure Miljevic]

As Old Man said, three or four A5M complemented Zeros on light carrier Shoho, when she was sunk during the battle of Coral sea. Otherwise, the type may have seen service as a special attack (suicide) aircraft. Unfortunately, I have no idea about the subversions used. Cheers

Jure

[2996 Victor]

22 minutes ago, Old Man said:

A5M-4 machines saw some use early in WWII. Some were on light carriers as late as the Coral Sea battle. Some were on Rabaul used as 'night fighters'.

 

A late open cockpit A5M-2 could probably pass as an M-4 if not looked at sharply.

 

The red tail was a Navy identification marking in the China theater, and removed from machines later used elsewhere. The 'bl;ue' you recall might have been a poor attempt at showing a bare metal finish (actually aluminum lacquer was applied over the metal). I have never heard of blue being used overall. There is some possibility of a sort of 'golden' appearance over-all, as late types got a coating of a varnish that had an amber shade, and in some light condition this appeared to give a tint to the machine.

 

 

17 minutes ago, Jure Miljevic said:

As Old Man said, three or four A5M complemented Zeros on light carrier Shoho, when she was sunk during the battle of Coral sea. Otherwise, the type may have seen service as a special attack (suicide) aircraft. Unfortunately, I have no idea about the subversions used. Cheers

Jure

Many thanks, @Old Man and @Jure Miljevic, for your posts - that certainly clarifies things for me! I think I'll be completing the kit I have as a 12th Kokutai aircraft in China to complement the A6M2 from the same unit that I have planned.

 

However, the idea of one of these obsolescent fighters still being front-line use into 1942 means I'll probably have to get another kit (funny how often that happens, isn't it!). Not knowing a huge amount about the type, I recently bought the Mushroom Yellow Series monograph. Although I don't know how accurate the information it contains is, it seems to infer that the late A5M2b and A5M4 were visually almost indistinguishable, so I'd like to know whether that's true or not.....!

 

As for the blue profile, well, it was a very long time ago but I don't think my memory is playing tricks! It was definitely a royal blue, so I don't think it could have been a misrepresentation of an aluminium finish. I think some A5Ms were finished in a single shade of green on their upper surfaces, so I wonder if the blue of the colour profile was a mis-interpretation of a monochrome photograph.

 

Kind regards,

 

Mark

[Old Man]

There were some late green upper-surfaces. Training planes with usually orange-yellow under-surfaces. A striking look.

 

12th Kokukai is a good choice.

[JackG]

I've the "mushroom" publication, though as you say, who knows how accurate.   Can't say I've seen anything bad written about it, and it does stand as the only English printed materiel to this degree on the Claude. 

 

So according to the above book, I find the following differences between the late A5Mb2 and A5M4:

- different designed front windshield

-  height difference of 3.3cm (at 1/72, this only 0.45mm)

- bit more powerful engine

 

Concerning the engine, I can't find what physically changed other than an increase in horsepower.  Clear Prop does advertise one resin engine type that is suitable for all A5M.

 

regards,

Jack

[2996 Victor]

2 hours ago, JackG said:

I've the "mushroom" publication, though as you say, who knows how accurate.   Can't say I've seen anything bad written about it, and it does stand as the only English printed materiel to this degree on the Claude. 

 

So according to the above book, I find the following differences between the late A5Mb2 and A5M4:

- different designed front windshield

-  height difference of 3.3cm (at 1/72, this only 0.45mm)

- bit more powerful engine

 

Concerning the engine, I can't find what physically changed other than an increase in horsepower.  Clear Prop does advertise one resin engine type that is suitable for all A5M.

 

regards,

Jack

Thanks, Jack,

You've pretty much confirmed what I'd found about the differences, although I must have slipped over the height difference. As you say, there doesn't seem to be any info on whether there was a physical change to the engine, so I'd presume it was all internal.

The more fundamental changes took place between the A5M1 and A5M2.

Kind regards,

Mark

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello Mark

A short observation regarding a number of kits needed: the urge to buy new kits seems to grow stronger as one's stash grow larger. I have built three Avia B.534 kits so far, have a fourth one on a bench, another quartet of new Avia kits in my stash, and I still have a feeling I have to obtain a few more. Strange phenomena indeed. Cheers

Jure

[JackG]

Measurements and such of the various Claude marks is presented in chart form.  It is found just before the colour plates section of the book.   It's actually the A5M2b that is taller, and it could be just the kinked fuselage antenna that is the difference?

 

There is a February 1942 entry concerning night flying operations from the Marshall Islands, but no mention if the aircraft surfaces were repainted in something dark.  This could be the source/inspiration of the blue Claude?   The brown and green camouflage scheme was already in use in 1938,  though another paint source could be one of the IJN greys used for ships - could make for an interesting whif.

 

regards,

 Jack

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by JackG

[72modeler]

10 hours ago, JackG said:

I've the "mushroom" publication,

 Maru Mechanic did a monograph on the Claude and the Nate, volume 49, but the text was all Japanese. If you have a smart phone, you can load the Google Translate app and then if you aim your phone at the desired text, it translates it into English! A real godsend if you have FAOW's, Maru Mechanics, or Aero Detail publications!

Mike

[Toryu]

Have a look at aviationofjapan.com and put A5M and then Claude into the search box for some good information on operational use and schemes.

I think I remember this blue-red painting, too (Was it some box art?). As @Old Man said it was most likely a fanciful rendition of bare metal. There were no blue Claudes.

Cheers, Michael

[2996 Victor]

13 hours ago, Toryu said:

Have a look at aviationofjapan.com and put A5M and then Claude into the search box for some good information on operational use and schemes.

I think I remember this blue-red painting, too (Was it some box art?). As @Old Man said it was most likely a fanciful rendition of bare metal. There were no blue Claudes.

Cheers, Michael

Hi Michael,

Many thanks for your post - for some reason I seem to have difficulty navigating my way around the Aviation of Japan site, and didn't find much when I looked on Friday - I'll have another go!

I'm pretty sure that the red/blue scheme was a profile in a book, but it's got to have been forty-odd years ago! Research then wasn't what it is now, so I suspect it was a misinterpreted photograph.

Kind regards,

Mark

[72modeler]

There was an FAOW in the 'new' series, number 27, on the Claude; I just remembered I have it and will look to see if there's anything related to your query within. Here is a link to an excellent article on the J-Aircraft website that you or others might find interesting regarding the "golden" A5M's.

Mike

 

https://j-aircraft.com/research/was_that_a_gold_claude_i_saw.htm

[Old Man]

2 hours ago, 72modeler said:

 Here is a link to an excellent article on the J-Aircraft website that you or others might find interesting regarding the "golden" A5M's.

Mike

 

https://j-aircraft.com/research/was_that_a_gold_claude_i_saw.htm

Glad to hear they are still around, Sir. It seemed to be in difficulties a couple of years back.

[2996 Victor]

5 hours ago, 72modeler said:

There was an FAOW in the 'new' series, number 27, on the Claude; I just remembered I have it and will look to see if there's anything related to your query within. Here is a link to an excellent article on the J-Aircraft website that you or others might find interesting regarding the "golden" A5M's.

Mike

 

https://j-aircraft.com/research/was_that_a_gold_claude_i_saw.htm

Hi Mike,

that's a fascinating link, isn't it? Not sure how easy it would be to replicate the gold finish described, but certainly worth some experimentation!

Copies of FAOW #27 seem to be fetching quite a premium 🙂

Kind regards,

Mark

[72modeler]

7 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Copies of FAOW #27 seem to be fetching quite a premium

There are two for sale right now on that well-known auction site that seem to be reasonable.

Mike

 

I did go through my copy and there weren't any photos or profiles that showed any A5M's in a blue scheme; there weren't any in my Maru Mechanic, either. The FAOW does have very nice 1/72 drawings of all the variants, though. Best I can do from my reference library- sorry! You might pose a query about the blue scheme on the Aviation of  Japan website and see what Nick Millman says,

 

 

[2996 Victor]

Hi Mike,

many thanks - I must have missed those so I'll have another look :)

From what's been discussed, I strongly the blue scheme to have been in error, which is a shame as I recall it being very attractive! I'm sure @Nick Millman would be able to provide a definitive answer, either here or on AoJ? 

Kind regards,

Mark

[JackG]

Another possible explanation of the blue Claude could be a printing error.   40+ years ago I doubt there was some form of auto digital adjustments when printing, and it was all up to the operator to match sample in the four process colours of CMYK.   For example, a decrease of yellow would certainly turn a green into a shade of blue.

 

Nick Millman has stopped posting in these forums for a few years now.  His blog site does have a link to his email, and he welcomes any queries.

 

regards,

Jack

[Jure Miljevic]

Hello

This may only add to confusion but I do remember seeing several colour profiles of special attack aircraft of various types, Ki.27 fighter and shape charge armed suicide version of Ki.67 bomber among them. The colour scheme was middle blue on upper surfaces and silver or blue grey on lower surfaces. None of them was painted royal blue, though. Cheers

Jure