British Sherman Experts, please step inside.....

[Longbow]

Hi Guys.... I'm looking to pick the experts brains, for a possible upcoming project.

 

I Know NOTHING about British Sherman use. 

 

Here is a pic of a 4/7 Royal Dragoon Guards DD Sherman at Caan, nocked out by a 12th SS Gredadier Panzerfaust.

 

Can anyone give me insight into the Sherman model, as I see it has a cast hull, rather than being a Sherman V (?)

 

Also of interest, is the large checkered sheets, seen on the rear of a couple of DD Shermans in Normand. What color were these ?

 

 

 

 

Thanks for your time, guys !!

 

Lee. 

[SimonT]

Have a look through http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/duplexdrive/duplexdrive.html

 

Loads of good info. 
 

To quote from the above link:

”293 of the British conversions were based on the Sherman III (M4A2), and 400 on the Sherman V (M4A4).”

Edited September 9, 2020 by SimonT
Added quote

[Seahawk]

But, since it has a cast hull, it is not a Sherman III or a Sherman V.  It looks as if it is one of the US-built conversions of an M4A1 (Sherman II).  I can't beat the write-up in the link  @SimonThas provided but basically the British couldn't turn out enough DD tanks to meet their requirements so the US did some conversions for UK use: they were all late production M4A1.

 

Afraid I can't even see the "large chequered sheets" in the photo.

[Longbow]

2 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

But, since it has a cast hull, it is not a Sherman III or a Sherman V.  It looks as if it is one of the US-built conversions of an M4A1 (Sherman II).  I can't beat the write-up in the link  @SimonThas provided but basically the British couldn't turn out enough DD tanks to meet their requirements so the US did some conversions for UK use: they were all late production M4A1.

 

Afraid I can't even see the "large chequered sheets" in the photo.

Sorry, the large sheets are not in this pic. 
I’ll try and find an example. 

[Longbow]

Here you go. Looks like some form of air recognition flag, maybe ?

 

Also, would the turrets of these have had the loaders hatch, on top ?

 

[Seahawk]

I note that "The tanks that were provided were unallocated, late 1943 models. Many were of December Pressed Steel Car production, and had such late features as "large" drivers' hatches and high bustle turrets."  If forced to guess, I'd be inclined to think they did have the loaders hatch but, rather than speculate beyond what's contained in the Sherman minutiae site, I'll leave it to others who might know the answer.   

 

NB also "The 4/7 Royal Dragoon Guards and the Nottinghamshire (Sherwood Rangers) Yeomanry, which were both part of the 8th Armoured Brigade, are thought to have been equipped mostly or entirely with the 80 M4A1 DDs provided by the US."

[John Tapsell]

The 4/7 DG Sherman DD tanks were M4A1s supplied direct from the USA (already converted to DD) as noted by Seahawk. They were delivered during April/May 1944 and the regiment had limited time to test and train with them (they were already well trained on the Valentine DD so it wasn't a completely new concept).

 

The large chequered flags/panels are a subject of some debate, both in terms of origin and purpose. As far as is known they were only seen on the rear of DD tanks of 13/18 Hussars (Sherman V DD) on Sword Beach - but whether they were used on both DD Squadrons (A and B Sqns) or just one of them isn't known. For completeness, C Sqn was equipped with waterproofed M4A2 (Sherman III) wading tanks rather than DD tanks. All the British and Canadian DD regiments had two DD Sqns and one wading Sqn as far as I'm aware.

 

The general consensus seems to be that the panels were intended to be a high visibility marker to allow the tanks to be identified in the water and on the beaches by the naval vessels and bombardment units (probably the destroyers and gunboats operating close inshore rather than the larger cruisers offshore). In terms of colour, the suggestion is dark blue and white, although I have seen some claims that they were green and white. Origins are also obscure. They could have been specially created but again, other sources suggest that the 'flags' were actually naval signal flags.

 

 

[Longbow]

5 hours ago, John Tapsell said:

The 4/7 DG Sherman DD tanks were M4A1s supplied direct from the USA (already converted to DD) as noted by Seahawk. They were delivered during April/May 1944 and the regiment had limited time to test and train with them (they were already well trained on the Valentine DD so it wasn't a completely new concept).

 

The large chequered flags/panels are a subject of some debate, both in terms of origin and purpose. As far as is known they were only seen on the rear of DD tanks of 13/18 Hussars (Sherman V DD) on Sword Beach - but whether they were used on both DD Squadrons (A and B Sqns) or just one of them isn't known. For completeness, C Sqn was equipped with waterproofed M4A2 (Sherman III) wading tanks rather than DD tanks. All the British and Canadian DD regiments had two DD Sqns and one wading Sqn as far as I'm aware.

 

The general consensus seems to be that the panels were intended to be a high visibility marker to allow the tanks to be identified in the water and on the beaches by the naval vessels and bombardment units (probably the destroyers and gunboats operating close inshore rather than the larger cruisers offshore). In terms of colour, the suggestion is dark blue and white, although I have seen some claims that they were green and white. Origins are also obscure. They could have been specially created but again, other sources suggest that the 'flags' were actually naval signal flags.

 

 

That’s excellent information, and will help a lot. Thank You !!

 

So what markings am I looking at for a DG Duplex Drive at Casn, with a cast hull ?

[bigfoot]

I have seen it written somewhere (can’t remember where off the top of my head, I would have to do some digging) that the flags were naval for ‘follow me’, which would make them black and yellow checks. I don’t know how valid that information is and I’ve often seen them described as dark green and white as John said.

Edited September 10, 2020 by bigfoot
grammar

[SimonT]

This is a good read for the overall picture.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/30055/ww2_caen.pdf

 

I thought I had the Osprey book on Epsom but I can’t find it listed in my library. Will keep digging.

 

For tactical markings the two sites below have good info:

 

https://tank-markings.blogspot.com/?m=1

https://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=590

[Longbow]

18 minutes ago, SimonT said:

This is a good read for the overall picture.

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/30055/ww2_caen.pdf

 

I thought I had the Osprey book on Epsom but I can’t find it listed in my library. Will keep digging.

 

For tactical markings the two sites below have good info:

 

https://tank-markings.blogspot.com/?m=1

https://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=590

Those look excellent, Simon, Thank You !! I'm at work, this morning, but will definitely read those later

[Longbow]

Okay, you guys are probably wondering why I'm asking these questions lol. 

Well, I've always loved this photo, but do not want to build it as a Sherman V. 

 

I'm figuring that pretty much any Sherman DD that landed in Normandy would be pretty beaten up by day 3 or 4, if they had not already removed the canvas screen.

 

So, I'm going to attempt to build it as a cast hull Sherman of the RDG.

 

 

 

[bigfoot]

Nice, are you converting the DD or using the resicast kit?

[Longbow]

6 minutes ago, bigfoot said:

Nice, are you converting the DD or using the resicast kit?

Everything DD related will be scratch built. 

I'd rather do it myself, than use resin. I had a lot of bad experiences years ago with paying for some of the Verlinden Resin conversions, and having only 5% of the items fit or be usable. 

[bigfoot]

1 hour ago, Longbow said:

Everything DD related will be scratch built. 

I'd rather do it myself, than use resin. I had a lot of bad experiences years ago with paying for some of the Verlinden Resin conversions, and having only 5% of the items fit or be usable. 

I know that feeling, I’ve been using some accurate armour resin parts on a current Cromwell build and had to ditch some and adjust others as parts are too small.

 

i will look forward to seeing you build it, I’ve got one of the old resicast Sherman V DDs on my desk almost finished building but it has been a pain to put together.

[Longbow]

1 minute ago, bigfoot said:

I know that feeling, I’ve been using some accurate armour resin parts on a current Cromwell build and had to ditch some and adjust others as parts are too small.

 

i will look forward to seeing you build it, I’ve got one of the old resicast Sherman V DDs on my desk almost finished building but it has been a pain to put together.

If possible, I would like to see photos of that !! Do you have a build log on it ?

[bigfoot]

 

28 minutes ago, Longbow said:

If possible, I would like to see photos of that !! Do you have a build log on it ?

Here you go:

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235056112-sherman-v-dd/

 

[Longbow]

8 minutes ago, bigfoot said:

 

Here you go:

 

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235056112-sherman-v-dd/

 

Thanks !! Hope to see it with some paint on it soon

[Kingsman]

The M4A1DDs were provided to the UK largely because the Sherman III DD design was proving troublesome and would not be ready in time.  They were only used later at Walcheren and the Rhine crossing.  Additional Vs were found to convert but there was still a shortfall.  The US on the other hand only planned to deploy 6 battalions of DDs but found themselves with enough DDs on hand for 12.  The extra vehicles were made and shipped largely to ensure that sufficient remained available for the big day while allowing for training damage.

 

The high bustle turret had the loader's hatch.  The problem in 1/35 is finding a high bustle 75mm turret in a kit as most are low bustle and no-one does a large-hatch 75mm M4A1 AFAIK.  The Dragon M4A3 ETO and M4A2 Late PTO, and the Academy USMC M4A2 spring to mind.  The Dragon M4 Composite kit has both high and low bustle shells in it but annoyingly does not have the lower part for the HB.  I'm sure that TMD must do one in resin.

 

There was no green and white check naval signal flag as far as I can determine.  There was, however, a blue and white check flag for the letter N.  I cannot find a yellow and black check flag in the naval flag system either.  Yellow and black check "follow me" flags were certainly used on airfields for marshalling aircraft.  If you look at naval signal flags they do not use the same pattern in different colours as differentiating colour at sea at distance can be difficult and often only the pattern can be discerned. So a check flag could only be N.

 

For your M4A1 Sherman II DD note that these were US-built to UK drawings but were not necessarily identical in every respect to the Sherman V DDs also used on D Day, noting that the A1 hull was a different shape and almost a foot shorter than the A4 behind the turret.  The exhaust deflector arrangements were different between engine types too. 

 

When looking at DD screen interiors, note also that there were 3 distinct marks of DD and that most Sherman III DDs were built to one of the later standards with the turret-mounted screen stays and other changes including the rear air tanks replaced with a compressor.  The Bovington DD is on a Sherman III and is a DD MkII which has the turret stays and improved stay locking/release but being a standard-length hull is probably a good guide for stay spacing etc for the M4A1. 

 

US DDs including AFAIK those supplied to the UK had the idler sprocket rings removed, although the mounting rings remained, as they were found in training to pack with sand and cause track shedding - not a problem seemingly suffered by British DDs.

[Longbow]

On 9/9/2020 at 4:56 PM, John Tapsell said:

The 4/7 DG Sherman DD tanks were M4A1s supplied direct from the USA (already converted to DD) as noted by Seahawk. They were delivered during April/May 1944 and the regiment had limited time to test and train with them (they were already well trained on the Valentine DD so it wasn't a completely new concept).

 

The large chequered flags/panels are a subject of some debate, both in terms of origin and purpose. As far as is known they were only seen on the rear of DD tanks of 13/18 Hussars (Sherman V DD) on Sword Beach - but whether they were used on both DD Squadrons (A and B Sqns) or just one of them isn't known. For completeness, C Sqn was equipped with waterproofed M4A2 (Sherman III) wading tanks rather than DD tanks. All the British and Canadian DD regiments had two DD Sqns and one wading Sqn as far as I'm aware.

 

The general consensus seems to be that the panels were intended to be a high visibility marker to allow the tanks to be identified in the water and on the beaches by the naval vessels and bombardment units (probably the destroyers and gunboats operating close inshore rather than the larger cruisers offshore). In terms of colour, the suggestion is dark blue and white, although I have seen some claims that they were green and white. Origins are also obscure. They could have been specially created but again, other sources suggest that the 'flags' were actually naval signal flags.

 

 

That’s excellent information, and will help a lot. Thank You !!

 

So what markings am I looking at for a DG Duplex Drive at Casn, with a cast hull ?

 

 

Also, which green for this one ? British or Olive Drab ?

 

Sorry for all the questions. Like I said, I know very little about Sherman’s, and even less about British ones. 

[John Tapsell]

The M4A1 DDs would have been left in US Olive Drab - no need to repaint them in SCC15 when it was a virtually identical colour.

[Smithy1961]

Which versions ended up in India, used in training for the planned Operation Zipper?

[EwenS]

My notes give the following:-

The 25th Dragoons had trained on Valentine DD in India from mid 1944. They swapped them for Sherman III(DD) in anticipation of Operation Zipper.

Loaded on LSTs at Madras 6 Aug but unloaded again the next day.

There were 86 Sherman DD in India at the end of the war with an expectation of another 100 arriving.

Some of the vehicles may have seen service with the 7th Hussars in Italy before being shipped to India.

Immediately postwar there was a squadron formed to demonstrate various "funnies" which also had some Sherman DD.

 

Some info and photos of them here -

http://ww2talk.com/index.php?threads/25th-dragoons-in-india-1945-7.70768/page-3

 

Here is an article about someone who trained on them with a few photos (you need to go right to the bottom of the page)

https://www.northumberlandgazette.co.uk/heritage-and-retro/retro/northumberland-war-veteran-94-recalls-his-memories-ve-day-2846083

Note the tanks in the last photo have all been refitted with what appears to be the commanders vision cupola with a single hatch cover.