USAAF ASW B-24Ds - olive drab or some sort of blue?

[Blimpyboy]

I'm umming and ahhing over whether or not to get the decal sheet from the 2014 IPMS USA convention in Virginia, which features an ASW B-24D.

My question to the floor is: would the top surface colour have been olive drab or could it have been a blue colour?

 

Thanks in advance,

BB

 

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2020 by Blimpyboy

[JosephLalor]

I need to look it up, but off the top of my head, Sea Search aircraft had olive drab upper surfaces and white undersurfaces.

Edited September 6, 2020 by JosephLalor

[Graham Boak]

It is difficult to believe that the blue in the photo is due to some film effect when the trailer appears completely standard OD.

[Blimpyboy]

20 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

It is difficult to believe that the blue in the photo is due to some film effect

 

I must admit, I'm inclined to agree - also because of the attraction of a blue Lib!

 

I've heard that some film from the period used to degrade in a manner that could show OD as a blue-ish colour in some instances. I was wondering if that was the case with the blue photo - to my eyes, the top of the nose does look like a brownish shade (my knowledge of the vagaries of film and its effects is really patchy).

Still, in comparison with the chap's uniform and the green trailer, I am liking the idea that it is indeed more likely to be some kind of azure-ish or mediterranean blue colour.

[Giorgio N]

Neutral Grey? This colour was used in the early USAAF ASW scheme and a number of B-24s carried it

[noelh]

Echoes there of the famous blue Mustangs. That weren't  blue at all. 

 

But neutral gray maybe, as seen here in this Britmodeller thread. See post 20.

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2020 by noelh

[Dana Bell]

Hi BB,

 

Max Schoenfeld's book Hunting the U-Boat had the explanation - before leaving the ETO for the MTO, the unit's B-24s were recamouflaged with Mediterranean Blue.  Unfortunately, the groups records didn't specify Light Med Blue or Dark Med Blue, though I suspect dark.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

[Graham Boak]

Looks more like LMB, the Dark colour was as dark as Roundel Blue, which this clearly isn't.

 

Re Blue Mustangs - eye witnesses on the base, looking at aircraft on the ground, said they were blue.  I wasn't there, but ...

[noelh]

35 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

 

Re Blue Mustangs - eye witnesses on the base, looking at aircraft on the ground, said they were blue.  I wasn't there, but ...

Oh can of worms, ✈

[occa]

It appears like the Med Blue over spray was done sloppily, that's why OD might shine through a bit.

Strange only the the number '2' is completely missing on the B/W foto.

[tonyot]

What a great scheme,....I`m for blue all day long,..... and I didn`t know that the USAAF B-24D`s had centimetric radar fitted in the nose. Should make a spectacular looking model,.... I hope you bought the decals?

Cheers

         Tony

[Blimpyboy]

11 hours ago, noelh said:

Echoes there of the famous blue Mustangs. That weren't  blue at all. 

 

Ooh, yeah, that's a good point! I'm only vaguely familiar with the discussion of that issue, but was thinking if the B-24 shots had similar issues!

 

 

11 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

Neutral Grey?

 

Hmmm, that complicates things even more. I think I just want it to be a blue, because it's something so different!

 

 

11 hours ago, Dana Bell said:

before leaving the ETO for the MTO, the unit's B-24s were recamouflaged with Mediterranean Blue.

 

11 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Looks more like LMB, the Dark colour was as dark as Roundel Blue

 

That seems a little more concrete! Were blue colours common at all, for USAAF ASW aircraft?

 

 

 

11 hours ago, occa said:

It appears like the Med Blue over spray was done sloppily, that's why OD might shine through a bit.

Strange only the the number '2' is completely missing on the B/W foto.

 

That's a thought, I could do a bit of OD coming through a blue finish!

I believe Tidewater Tillie went through several iterations of markings over its life, and that the large nose numbers were added much later in its life (this is the result of 5 minutes of crappy research, so I could be completely off the mark there...)

 

 

 

10 hours ago, tonyot said:

I hope you bought the decals?

 

Sure did! This morning!

It also gives me an excuse to go for a bit of a drive in the countryside - I found an intact Academy B-24D kit going super cheap in a charity shop out in the boonies, so I'll be going to pick it up tomorrow morning!

 

 

Thanks very much all, for your input and thoughts. Much appreciated!

Edited September 7, 2020 by Blimpyboy

[brewerjerry]

Hi

   So was this B-24 part of the 479th  or 480th which were based at St Eval ? 

   cheers

    jerry 

[brewerjerry]

12 hours ago, Dana Bell said:

Hi BB,

 

Max Schoenfeld's book Hunting the U-Boat had the explanation - before leaving the ETO for the MTO, the unit's B-24s were recamouflaged with Mediterranean Blue.  Unfortunately, the groups records didn't specify Light Med Blue or Dark Med Blue, though I suspect dark.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

Hi Dana

              Do you think they would have been painted at st eval or dunkeswell ? 

 

 or were they painted elsewhere in the uk before they left ? 

 

    cheers

       jerry

[gingerbob]

8 hours ago, Blimpyboy said:

(this is the result of 5 minutes of crappy research, so I could be completely off the mark there...)

On the other hand, that may qualify you as a subject-matter expert!  But make way for another one with similar qualifications:

 

I played around with the colour image, adjusting all those sliding adjuster thingies trying to make it look "right" by Mk.I eyeball.  Then I compared it to the image as posted above... and they looked pretty much the same, which at least shows that I didn't go off toward one extreme or another!

 

Next I took the lead of others and hunted up a Light Med. Blue colour chip (on a Britmodeller thread, natch) and my scientific opinion is that it is not wildly outside the realm of possibility for that B-24.  With all my experimenting, and bearing in mind the trailer and the bits seen through some of the windows, I certainly could not make the airplane look any sort of Olive Drab.  As for the top bit, there are strong, sharp shadows, so that could be fading and/or photographic "halo"- it doesn't suggest a different colour to me, even "bleeding through" a dusting over it.

[Blimpyboy]

I like your 'scientific' work. It is helpful, 'though, and adds to the case for a Mediterranean blue colour for this aircraft.

 

If you can't be a full-time, proper practicing scientist, you could always be a 'scientician'. 😉

Edited September 7, 2020 by Blimpyboy

[stevehnz]

9 hours ago, brewerjerry said:

Hi Dana

              Do you think they would have been painted at st eval or dunkeswell ? 

 

 or were they painted elsewhere in the uk before they left ? 

 

    cheers

       jerry

 

If these were repainted in the UK, might they have used the same colour as the squadrons based out of Cornwall carrying the Atlantic scheme which from memory was Sea gray & Insignia White. A much lower demarcation on this ship but the colour fading would not look wrong for weathered Sea Gray to my mind. It is a fascinating scheme & colour conumdrum.  Like @gingerbob I had a play with some colour variations & couldn't make it look like faded OD, least not on the top, which resolutely had a blueish caste to it, but the darker area above the underside colour & behind the airman's shoulders does look a bit ODish to my eye.

Steve.

[72modeler]

On 9/6/2020 at 8:51 AM, tonyot said:

Should make a spectacular looking model,.... I hope you bought the decals?

Cheers

So says Tony as he unpacks yet another Academy B-24D kit from the crate of them he has been hoarding! 

Mike

[EwenS]

On 07/09/2020 at 01:57, brewerjerry said:

Hi

   So was this B-24 part of the 479th  or 480th which were based at St Eval ? 

   cheers

    jerry 

My answer would be, possibly. Or perhaps one of its predecessor or constituent units.

 

First a few comments about the aircraft. “Liberator America’s Global Bomber” has a photo purporting to be of B-24D 42-40334 “Tidewater Tillie” from the 480th Anti Submarine Group but without a date. BUT the serial on the tail is unreadable, there does not appear to be the artwork on the nose nor the number 12,  it has a higher camouflage demarcation on the nose and, most noticeably, it has no radar (nor any sign to my eye of being censored). It is carrying the letter “T” and noted to have the yellow ring around the national star marking. This aircraft would have come off the production line about Feb 1943 and survived until scrapped in 1945. It was not one of the USAAF A/S B-24s passed to the USN.

 

It is always possible that the aircraft was refitted at some point with the radar and repainted, given a squadron number and then had the artwork applied over the top.

 

The 480th ASG was formed in Morocco on 21st June 1943. It comprised the 1st and 2nd Anti Submarine squadrons which had operated from St Eval as part of the 25th Anti Submarine Wing, from late 1942 / early 1943 until moving to Morocco in mid March 1943. The 480th returned to the US in Nov 1943 and disbanded in Jan 1944 following transfer of responsibility for anti submarine operations to the USN.

 

The 479th ASG only existed between 8th July and 11th Nov 1943, having taken control of a number of pre-existing USAAF AS squadrons from other Groups.

 

The national markings with a yellow ring suggests a post Torch period in North Africa, and therefore the 480th ASG, but before about late June / early July 1943 when bars were added and the surround changed to red (although not always applied) then blue. That is a very narrow window for the update given the photo I’ve found.

 

So, other than the artwork, do we have evidence that we are discussing the the same “Tidewater Tillie”? It was not unknown for crews to repeat artwork / names on more than one aircraft. There are various photos of “Tidewater Tillie” at www.b24bestweb.com including an enlarged version of the one I referred to but I can’t access the site at present. Maybe someone else will be more successful until I can try again on the PC rather than this iPad once SWMBO finishes work.

 

Edit:- Just found this. https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/markings-480th-anti-submarine-group.48182/

 

We we may be dealing with another serial 41-23677. Also some comments about the colour.

 

[Blimpyboy]

The plot thickens...!

 

There might indeed appear to be several Tillies; however...... while it could be a case of different (replacement) aircraft being given the same name, part of me wonders whether it could also be a case of changing colour schemes over time (although for which aircraft, I can't be sure).

I wonder if the first three pictures possibly show an initial scheme of OD over NG (or over white) scheme, while the lower three show a later scheme of LMB over NG (or over white). I base this largely on the demarcation between upper and lower colours. The top three show a straight-ish separation line, while the lower three show a wavy separation line.

 

Plus, a bit of a write-up on Tidewater Tillie's exploits, while based both in the UK and in North Africa (which may explain the yellow-ringed roundel): https://www.lonesentry.com/blog/tidewater-tillie-tames-two.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

and then...

 

 

 

 

 

 

And finally, the B-24 portion of the decal sheet:

Edited September 9, 2020 by Blimpyboy

[expositor]

Gents,

Curiously, why would the US Army with its vaunted logistics chain, repaint its planes with an RAF color which wasn't used in the Approaches, and might not even have been in CC paint stores in Cornwall?  Since it looks like USN Blue Gray (which some have written was the actual color of ANA 603...but a row for another worm can for another day....), why couldn't the color be PRU Blue?  Since the PRU was under CC command, if those planes were painted before leaving Cornwall, then that blue color makes more sense, no?

Not saying they weren't MB, just thinking that unless they were painted in Africa, they might just be another blue....

However, what about the photo's provenance?  Colorized?  Since the Army's anti-sub planes were normally painted OD over white, why would they, God forbid, use a Navy color in another theater...?

Ciao!

[Graham Boak]

14 minutes ago, expositor said:

, why couldn't the color be PRU Blue? 

Because that is a lighter and greyer shade of blue that that which appears in the photograph.  For the same reason It does not look like the lighter and greyer USN Blue Gray, but that is perhaps closer.  Why Dark MB?  Because that is what it looks like, and because Dana Bell above quotes from a book describing it as Mediterranean Blue.  Given the photo and the written source, that's better than any supposition about what it might be.  But if it isn't, there's more explaining to do, and no more obvious alternative. 

 

As to whether USN aircraft paint would be readily available in the UK - I doubt it, and given inter-service rivalry there's perhaps some doubt whether the USAAF would have preferred British colours anyway?

 

The photo may be colourised but not every colour photo from WW2 has been, especially American ones.  

[JWM]

For me on photo below machine looks like re-painted - the much darker (maybe OD) is a part near wavy demarkation line, moreove all around the naked girl area looks like painted all around with small brush. On first photos the underside is much darker what looks like normal OD/NG scheme.

[expositor]

Come on GB, PRU is lighter and grayer?  That blue looks, as you said like USN blue gray, which looks like PRU blue and that photo of Corsair I's posted a few weeks ago in another thread. It certainly does not look like the DMB on that DuPont color chart also posted here years ago.  Maybe in that bright sunlight, neutral grey could look blue?  Still questioning that photo though....Maybe that author is right, but it's too light for DMB.  Anyway, how many books pontificate on color only to be refuted years or decades later?

[Graham Boak]

1 hour ago, expositor said:

Come on GB, PRU is lighter and grayer?  That blue looks, as you said like USN blue gray, 

Not quite.  I said it doesn't look like USN Blue Gray, but it does look more like USN Blue Gray than it does to PRU Blue.  Somewhat different.  I see Light Mediterranean Blue as being a bluer close-cousin of PRU Blue.  It certainly isn't Light, despite the name, but I think it is lighter than the colour shown in the picture.   That is allowing for the lighting conditions, and the fact that colour chips are always denser and more saturated than the colours which are actually seen on the aircraft.  I still believe that Dark LMB is the likeliest match, knowing (from looking at the Malta Spitfire evidence) that DMB does weather to a lighter blue than appears on the chip.