Bf 109F-2 vs F-4

[Jochen Barett]

On 19/09/2020 at 19:12, Toryu said:

@fishplanebeer and @JackG  thank you for your input and argumentation - much appreciated!

 

Looking at the latest repetion of the photo above, I see a difference between the upper half of the cross and '2' and the lower half which appears darker. The reason may be the curvature of the fuselage so that the lower half is less exposed to the sun. The upper part of the '2' is clearly a white to me, same as the cross and tail band. The band looks slightly brighter, but again this may be the sun angle, or it was possibly painted later.

The effect is not visible on the engine cowling (above / in front of the exhaust), in addition to that the (probably) yellow cowling looks "recently cleaned" behind the exhaust pipes, but there seems to be quite some exhaust staining on the lower fuselage.

[G.R.Morrison]

for JackG - 

 

No Bf 109F-2s served in North Africa with any fighter unit(s).

 

The II/JG 27 received Bf 109F-4/Trops (in the WNr.84xx range) in mid-Sept. 1941, their first write-off being WNr.8435 of the 4./JG 27 on 16.Sept. 1941 (Bruchlandung at Aquileia, northern Italy), with WNr.8401 of the same unit damaged 24.Sept at Ain-el-Gazala, WNr.8402 damaged in a take-off acident at the same location two days later.  The 5./JG 27 had their first loss (WNr.8439), on 27.Sept., crash-landing at Brindisi.  The 5./JG 27's first combat loss (WNr.8440) was on 7.Oct. 1941, Lt. Langanke MIA 50 km south of Sidi-Omar following combat with a Martin Maryland, his first combat mission in North Africa.  The 6./JG 27 had their first loss (WNr.8471) on 17.Oct. 1941, Oblt. Franz Schulz, MIA.

 

At the end of October, I/JG 27 began receiving their first Bf 109F-4s, 'Edu' Neumann flying WNr.8523 from München-Riem to Foggia on 28.Oct. (he'd continue using this one 'til early December).  On the same day, Oblt. 'Ziskus' Franzisket ferried a 'tired' Bf 109E-7 WNr.3805, "weiße 7" from Ain-el-Gazala to Athens-Tatoi.  The first combat loss for I/JG 27 (WNr.8487) occurred on 20.Nov. 1941, Fw. Thomas Oswald injured in a crash-landing at Ain-el-Gazala.

 

At this time the III/JG 27 was still in Russia, equipped with Bf 109E-7s.  The attached Spanish Staffel, 15(sp.)/JG 27 was also using E-7s.  The Geschwaderstab (also in Russia) had at least one Bf 109F-2, WNr.9694 (slightly damaged 13.Sept. 1941 at Ljuban, passed along to the 5./JG 52), but others with the Geschwaderstab at this time were E-7s.

 

If someone wishes to build a Bf 109F-2, the JG 51 was an 'early adopter,' and their four Gruppen continued to use these long after other units had passed them along to a variety of schools.  The III and IV/JG 51 were converting to the Fw 190A by early 1943, although the 15.(sp.)/JG 51 was still flying Bf 109F-2s in late March 1943.

 

A factor to consider was the 100 octane 'C3' fuel which the F-2's DB601N required, which complicated supply logistics, when one considers other Luftwaffe motors used the far more common ('B4') 87 octane.  This was one of the reasons that the I/JG 51 was the first Ostfront unit to receive Fw 109A-2s and A-3s, they already having the C3 fuel that the BMW 801 required in their supply chain.

 

This is intended to provide light, not heat.  GRM

[JackG]

1 hour ago, G.R.Morrison said:

for JackG - 

 

No Bf 109F-2s served in North Africa with any fighter unit(s).

 

 

Not sure why I'm being singled out, as I wasn't the one that brought up the subject of the F-2, and certainly others might want to know too -  but thanks for making me feel special.

 

Also, when you start quoting specifics like you have, can mention the source to give them credit?

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

[Toryu]

4 hours ago, G.R.Morrison said:

 

No Bf 109F-2s served in North Africa with any fighter unit(s).

Alright - thanks a lot.

This brings me to the question if ALL F-4s had the round wheel recesses or if some had the squared-off ones. I believe I‘ve seen both on desert photos (no confusion with the E on my part)

 

Cheers, Michael

[Werdna]

46 minutes ago, Toryu said:

This brings me to the question if ALL F-4s had the round wheel recesses or if some had the squared-off ones. I believe I‘ve seen both on desert photos (no confusion with the E on my part)

I will defer to those with more knowledge, but I believe that there are examples of both shapes on the F-4 (possibly more examples of round than square), so either shape could be regarded as correct.  Certainly the HobbyBoss F-4 I'm working on at the moment has squared recesses and I'm not planning on altering it...

[G.R.Morrison]

Sources for my data in reply #27:

 

Unpublished:

Reports to the Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (on microfilm; the Schule reports are different, and on microfiche)

various Flugbücher, in this instance, from Neumann and Franzisket (both were with the I/JG 27 at this point)

ULTRA decripts, a friend (and retired USAF archivist) has been meticulously sifting through the Mediterranean theatre.

 

Published sources:

Prien, Stemmer, Rodeike & Bock, Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945, Teil 5, which includes a section, Einsatz im Mittelmeerraum October 1940 bis November 1941, and 

 (same authors), Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945, Teil 8/I, Einsatz im Mittelmeerraum November 1941 bis Dezember 1942

earlier (1998), Prien, Rodeike & Stemmer published a three-volume unit history of the JG 27, Messerschmitt Bf 109 im Einsatz bei Stab und I/JG 27 (Volumes II & III cover the II-IV Gruppen).

 

Regarding wheelwell shape, in posts #29 & #30, those for the Bf 109F-4 were round, those on SOME Bf 109F-2s (they were produced by five different manufacturers, from Nov. 1940 to August 1941) were the earlier 'square' style as seen on the Bf 109E, and which would reappear on the Bf 109G.  No document has surfaced dealing with the change from square to round, but photo evidence of machines with known Werknummern shows WNF-built aircraft were 'round' by late Jan./Feb. 1941, but those built by Arado-Warnmünde were still 'square' later than February.

 

The Hobbycraft "Bf 109F-4" kits that I've seen are Bf 109G-2s (despite the box labeling), but I am not sure which scale you are working in, and perhaps they've changed the mold?

 

HTH, GRM

[Toryu]

27 minutes ago, G.R.Morrison said:

The Hobbycraft "Bf 109F-4" kits that I've seen are Bf 109G-2s (despite the box labeling), but I am not sure which scale you are working in, and perhaps they've changed the mold?

Many thanks G.R.

My usual scale is 1/48 but I stumbled into the Heller Groupbuild and found an old 1/72 Bf 109F in my stash, which also seems to have been an original Gustav mold. Many alterations are waiting for me with this kit.

Cheers, Michael

[JackG]

For JG 27, could find only one photo that definitely shows the square type wheel well.   The site (photo is linked to it) and the book from Classic Colors Jagdwaffe series both share the same caption: 109 F4 Trop 8.JG27 El Asala North Africa July 1942

 

 

 

regards,

Jack

[Toryu]

Thanks again everybody for your assistance, and now ... over to the groupbuild

 

 

[2996 Victor]

Hi,

 

I've just received my first kit of a Luftwaffe subject in almost forty years - the Zvezda Bf 109F-2 in 1/72 scale. I went for this kit as I understand from threads here on BM that its one of the most accurate kits available at this time. Of course, being designed as a snap-together kit, its a bit simplified in terms of small details, which I'm happy to deal with.

 

I plan to build a Spanish F4/Trop (SBS Models decals), and so to confirm the external differences between the F-2 and F-4, would it be fair to summarise thus:

 

F-2 had squared wheel well openings, F-4 had round wheel well openings

F-4/Trop had a deeper oil cooler, tropical air filter, broad-bladed propeller

 

As regards the tropical air filter, I would probably use the Quickboost item, but should it be early or late? As this is marketed as F/G, I would presume early?

 

Are there any other external differences that I've missed?

 

Thanks in advance,

Mark

[G.R.Morrison]

As mentioned in the 1.Oct. 2020 post above, the wheel wells varied within Bf 109F-2 ranges varied with manufacturer and time period of construction.

 

You did not mention which Spanish machine on that SBS sheet is your chosen subject.  If building one from the JG 51 on the Ostfront, those were (still) Bf 109F-2s; the JG 51 hung on to their F-2s long after other units given them up.  Their Spanish Staffel converted from the 109F-2 to the Fw 190A-2 and A-3 in 1943.

 

The F-4/Trop had the deeper oil cooler, but some of this type were without the tropical dust-filter as they were flying over fronts other than the Mediterranean.

 

Armored glass on the front of the windscreen:  a common sight on the F-2 and F-4, but in North Africa most went without it, as grit would become sandwiched between.

 

Four external bracing straps on the rear fuselage -- this had been a 'quick fix' when some early 109Fs suffered twisting, and sometimes break-away, of the tail.  Later internal bracing / strengthening eliminated the need for the external straps.

 

Octane triangle, beneath the circular fuel door on the portside of the cockpit:  "C3" or "C-3" for the 109F-2, "87" for the Bf 109F-4

 

Good luck with your build, GRM

[2996 Victor]

24 minutes ago, G.R.Morrison said:

As mentioned in the 1.Oct. 2020 post above, the wheel wells varied within Bf 109F-2 ranges varied with manufacturer and time period of construction.

 

You did not mention which Spanish machine on that SBS sheet is your chosen subject.  If building one from the JG 51 on the Ostfront, those were (still) Bf 109F-2s; the JG 51 hung on to their F-2s long after other units given them up.  Their Spanish Staffel converted from the 109F-2 to the Fw 190A-2 and A-3 in 1943.

 

The F-4/Trop had the deeper oil cooler, but some of this type were without the tropical dust-filter as they were flying over fronts other than the Mediterranean.

 

Armored glass on the front of the windscreen:  a common sight on the F-2 and F-4, but in North Africa most went without it, as grit would become sandwiched between.

 

Four external bracing straps on the rear fuselage -- this had been a 'quick fix' when some early 109Fs suffered twisting, and sometimes break-away, of the tail.  Later internal bracing / strengthening eliminated the need for the external straps.

 

Octane triangle, beneath the circular fuel door on the portside of the cockpit:  "C3" or "C-3" for the 109F-2, "87" for the Bf 109F-4

 

Good luck with your build, GRM

Hi GRM, and many thanks for your post, that's all extremely helpful and hugely appreciated.

 

Apologies for not being specific about which aircraft: I'm thinking 23*51 in RLM79 over RLM78, which SBS claim is an F-4/Trop. However, 6*135 in 61/62/63 over 65 looks like a nice option as well, and although SBS don't suggest which variant, LF Models also feature this aircraft on this sheet where they claim it is also an F-4. I've got a copy of Spanish Air Force During World War II on order which I hope will clarify which aircraft were allocated to which units and also shed some light on camouflage as well!

 

I also quite like the idea of one of the Escuadrilla Azul aircraft, and according to SBS both of those on their sheet are F-2s, but my mottling skills need a lot of work!

 

Cheers,

Mark