All things Dakota Douglas DC-3 / C-47 info needed

[bootneck]

I am hoping for some assistance with a problem I am having on the visual looks between postwar DC-3 and the C-47 aircraft, as I am building a few at the moment.  Up until now, I have always viewed the Dakota as having different rear doors which were specific to type.  I thought the C-47 was recognisable by having double cargo doors, whereas the DC-3 had the single passenger door at the rear left (notwithstanding the DST with single door on the right).  My problem is that I have been researching some of the aircraft on G-INFO and found "some" single door aircraft are noted as C-47 Dakota 3 and again "some" double cargo door types as DC-3-R-1830 and so on.

Does this mean that DC-3's can have the double cargo type doors at the left rear; and C-47's can have the single passenger door at the left rear?  If so, were these factory built as such or are they postwar conversions?

 

I would be grateful for any and all information, especially if they contain visual references, so that I can be sure of what I am doing before I reach any decalling stages etc.

 

cheers,

Mike

[Graham Boak]

The doors can be altered for civil/military use, as apparently some postwar civil examples removed the cargo door.  However another reason could be that some of the "C-47s" (Skytrains) were actually C-53s (Skytroopers), which lacked the cargo door.  C-47s always had the cargo door, when built. Also, just to complicate matters, prewar many civil DC-3s (not just the DSTs) had the passenger door on the right hand side, depending on the airline.  As did the Russian licence-built Li.2s.

 

I suspect that "DC-3s" with the cargo door, however, were most likely really C-47s, as any such changes would be postwar by which time the DC-3s would have been tired and fresh C-47s cheap.  All sorts of things could be done to the Douglases all over the world, but money wouldn't be wasted on expensive conversions of tired airframes.

[janneman36]

As Graham said there are so many differences between te types

A C53 is a Skytrooper and doesn’t have a strengthened cargofloor and those aircraft were never really converted to a cargo door variant.

There are many more designations for the C47 type but it all depends wether it is converted for an airline after the war and which airline and they were done by a lot of different company’s. When rebuilt for an airline it would have been given a DC3 construction plate by the company who converted them ...always according to the Douglas specs for that civil variant and specific engine type.

Doors could be easily retrofitted as I have seen certain aircraft with or whitout the cargo door during it’s livespan.

The cargo door is an easy retrofit and not so expensive ..quite recently a came across a rebuilt C47 which had a passenger door before and it was given back the cargo door.

A description like “ DC-3-R-1830 ” is a  reference to a DC3 with prat and whitney R1830 engines which is not an official Douglas referral to that specific type of DC3

Sabena by the way took the last DC3 build in 1946.

The DC3 and C47 designation can be a little mystery sometimes but a serial number of a specific aircraft can be very helpfull.

I hope this helps a little....

 

cheers, Jan

[viscount806x]

As the others say, many C-47s were made to look like a DC-3 with the cargo doors being rebuilt to a single door. Notably, in the UK, BEA created the 'Pionair' class which was a serious attempt to create a decent airliner. These had more windows and the single l/h rear door. Lots of them found new owners eventually. Cambrian Airways are one such which comes readily to mind.

[Orso]

Many C-47's were converted to passenger doors before sold as airliners after the war. I don't remember was it a Canadian firm who did this. Look at old "Daisy" who is flying in Sweden. Double cargo doors during the war and converted to a passenger door after the war. Flew with SAS Norway before it went to the Swedish airline LInjeflyg. After that it went to the Swedish Air Force and was converted back to the double cargo doors which it still have as a veteran in SAS colours.

[Max Headroom]

9 minutes ago, viscount806x said:

As the others say, many C-47s were made to look like a DC-3 with the cargo doors being rebuilt to a single door. Notably, in the UK, BEA created the 'Pionair' class which was a serious attempt to create a decent airliner. These had more windows and the single l/h rear door. Lots of them found new owners eventually. Cambrian Airways are one such which comes readily to mind.

Someone here commented recently that there were eight (?) windows on the port side as a recognition feature and this was why ESCI got their transfers for Eastern Airways’ G-AMPO wrong.

 

Trevor

[bootneck]

Thanks everyone.  That's reassuring to know that we can build variations on a theme.  All the details you have provided have gone into my little project book (Vot iz yur name?  Don't tell him Pike).

I shall look up the aircraft mentioned for reference; however, if anyone wishes to post images to help then I would be happy to see them.

 

cheers,

Mike

[rob Lyttle]

Just going from memory here...... and that can be a bit haphazard!...... there were I think some Scottish airframe makeovers which feature a passenger door that is vertical when the plane is on the ground. That is, it slopes forward \ relative to the datum line. 

I had a couple of pictures saved but I can't find them now, but I remember thinking "shall I have a go.....?) 

There's probably quite a lot of misnaming and poor identification going on with online sources. I came across a LOT of bad steers looking for Lockheed Twins refs. 

Good luck with these 👍

[Orso]

I had a look in my notes of the DC-3's of the Aerotransport company in Sweden.

Before the war they had three DC-3-214. P&W engine with a passenger door mounted on the right side.
It was followed by two  DC-3268. They had Wright Cyclone engines at delivery but they were changed to P&W. Passenger doors on the left side. (These two were shot down during the war)

Post war they took delivery of ex USAAF machines
Five DC-3A-457 This was ec C-53-DO and had passenger doors on the left side.
They also got nine DC-3A-456 which were different types of C-47A. Two of these retained the cargo door on the left side and the remaining seven were modified with passenger doors on the left side by Canadair.
Finally they had two DC-3-467. One was an ex. C-47B-5-DK and the other one an C-47A-80-DL both with cargo doors on the left side.
So it looks like the C-47/C-53 got renamed to DC-3 when transferred to civilian life, or was this always a Douglas internal designation and the C- type the us armed forces designation?

[chrispisme]

58 minutes ago, bootneck said:

Thanks everyone.  That's reassuring to know that we can build variations on a theme.  All the details you have provided have gone into my little project book (Vot iz yur name?  Don't tell him Pike).

I shall look up the aircraft mentioned for reference; however, if anyone wishes to post images to help then I would be happy to see them.

 

cheers,

Mike

OK so I know this isn't what you mean by post a pic. I just though you may get a chuckle from it. Monogram 1/48 DC-3 with accuracy thrown to the wind (after I lost the engines) and made my own (I'll delete them if you like, no offense taken)...

 

[bootneck]

What's that one?  I thought initially it was a Basler 67 but the engines are different.  I plan to build a a B-67 later but yours  is interesting!

 

Mike

[chrispisme]

Hi Mike

Those are resin castings (modified a bit) of engines I originally made for for a DHC-3 turbo Otter kit. I copied the props from a 1/48 E-2C 2000 for a bit of swag.

Not accurate to either an original DC-3 or Basler conversion, it was coming close to an original DC-3 until I lost the engines and props (moving from house to house victims)

[Admiral Puff]

A bit of a  ...

You've really got to go back and look at the origin of the airframe to know what you're dealing with. For instance, of the 37 airframes taken on by Australian National Airways post WW2, 17 were DC-3s of various sub-types, 13 were ex-C-47s, 3 were C-49s, 3 were C-50s and there was a single R4D-3. That's just one airline ... A good example is VH-ANR, a DC-3-149B which is now in the museum at Caloundra, Queensland. It was built by Fokker for KLM, transferred to the NEI just before the war and escaped to Australia at the time Java was invaded. It was taken over by ADAT and sold to ANA post-war. It is now probably the oldest, and possibly the only, Fokker-built DC-3 airframe left in the world. It started life, like all Fokker built aircraft, with the passenger door on the starboard side, had a C-47-style freight door conversion whilst under ADAT's control, and was converted back to the single passenger door configuration by ANA - with the door on the port side. At various times in its life it had Wright Cyclones (KLM/KNILM), then P&W Twin Wasps (ADAT), then Cyclones again (ANA). The baggage compartment door was also enlarged by ANA, but that's another story.

 

The eight cabin window configuration is a post-war feature. As radios and navaids became transistorised they became smaller, and so required less space. As well, most airlines operated their aircraft in two-pilot configuration, so that the space for navigators and flight engineers was redundant. Many operators, ANA included, were not prepared to let that extra space go to waste, and so another row of seating was installed. This was the case with many (but NOT all) passenger carrying aircraft - those operated exclusively for freight work certainly took advantage of the extra space, but usually did not get the extra windows.

[bootneck]

Wow, this is becoming very interesting.  Perhaps I should change the header to "All things Douglas Dakota?

Thanks for all that info, the engines detail is a bit concerning though as I have just done a search and found they have different cylinder numbers.  Anyone got a plan/schematic or photo's of what they look like inside their cowlings?  Would there be that much detail to see?   I am working to 1:144 scale, hence why I will be able to plan on building quite a few, and am interested to know if the cylinder numbers would be noticeable at that scale?

 

Another area that I am interested in is the postwar passenger fit of the area behind the cockpit, which was the nav/radio op position on C-47's.  I have seen a brochure image that shows the radio shelves on the stbd side, and baggage shelves on the port.  The picture I had was old and faded but it appeared that the cabinet/bulkhead for these compartments only came up to about shoulder height, with shelf space above. The fronts (inward facing) looked as if they were a mesh fencing material.  Can anyone confirm that please?

 

Finally, for now, there seemed to have been a few compartments between the pilots bulkhead and the passenger secton, but how many doors where there?  I am presuming two but could there have been only one, or perhaps three?   I bet the answer is going to be "it depends on the airline"!

 

cheers,

Mike

[Admiral Puff]

Be warned - don't get me started on DC-3s, especially Australian ones!

 

The Cyclones were single row, nine cylinders; the Wasps had fourteen cylinders in two rows of seven each. This means that the engine, and so the cowling, depth is greater on the Wasps. As well, the Wasps had a smaller diameter than the Cyclones, and this also shows up in the cowlings - the firewall diameter is common, but the Wasp cowls had an increasing taper from front to rear, whereas the Cyclone ones had parallel sides. Even in 1:144 these differences are discernible.

 

As it happens, I'm in the process of revising my DC-3/C-47 master drawings, having discovered that the shape of my old set was more than a bit suss. PM me your email and I'll send you a copy when they're finished (which should be some time during next week).

[Eric Mc]

10 hours ago, Orso said:

or was this always a Douglas internal designation and the C- type the us armed forces designation?

The "C" prefix was, until 1962, strictly a designation used by the US Army Air Corps/Army Air Force and after 1947, the US Air Force.

In that period, the US Navy had a different designation system and the DC-3/C-47 family in Navy and Marine service was referred to as the R4D.

 

In 1962, a new unified designation system was introduced covering the Air Force, Navy , Marines and Army.

[Orso]

Was the C-47, C-53 and the other's designated DC-3 at Douglas

[bootneck]

DC-3 came first in 1936, being a wide-bodied upgrade of the DC-2 of 1934, with the military version the C-47A following in December 1941.

 

Mike

[Orso]

But as C-47 is a us military prefix I wonder if that was used by Douglas as well or if it is still called DC-3 internally at Douglas.

[bootneck]

As I understand it, in 1941 (before Pearl Harbor and US entry into WW2), some DC-3's that were on the production line got converted to military use and given the C- designation (C-47, C-53 etc).  Once Pearl Harbor had happened, all remaining DC-3's on the production lines were impressed into military service and converted to C-47 status.  I found this image of a DC-3, on the production line at Santa Monica, being marked up for conversion to a C-47 Skytrain. The white tape marks where the changes are to be made.

 

 

Mike

[bootneck]

This is starting to get under my skin and I'm thinking Daks even whilst trying to watch TV!  Question, is there an easily readable spreadsheet/listing/book on all the airframes built (not G-INFO)?  

I now realise that I need to go back through my data and correct quite a bit of incorrect information; such as all single doors are DC-3's and all British C-47's are Dakota IV's etc.  G-INFO is good but using that means I have to type in each reg individually, and that can be tedious.

 

cheers,

Mike

[Graham Boak]

The Air Britain type history runs for four very fat books, and most of those say very little about the WW2 military history.  I also doubt whether they cover the modelling-relevant changes (such as door fit) that you'd be looking  for.  I feel requiring the output to be "easily readable" as well as complete are directly opposing requests.

[Admiral Puff]

A book on modelling details would be almost the same size as the Gradidge epic! I started to gather materials about 20 years ago, but it's been a case of "the more you find, the more you realise you've got to find". I think I'm now pretty well full bottle on ANA aircraft, but there are still one or two airlines and other operators to go (even limiting the task to Australasia).

 

As I said in post 13, you've really got to know the origin of your airframe and its history up to and including the time (read: " the day") you're modelling, and start ferreting around from there. There were so many aircraft, and so many changes ... VH-ANR is actually fairly typical of the evolution of most airframes.

[DMC]

Hi @bootneck,

 

Charitk shop find.  Surplus to needs and going for expenses.  Hardback, 160 pages and profusely illustrated with b&w and colour photos.

 

Nice book.  Interested?

 

Dennis

 

[Eric Mc]

Arthur Pearcy was the "go to" person on DC-3/C-47/R4D matters for years.