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Mark's Workbench: A Hawker Hurricane Odyssey: 1/72 Arma Hobby and Airfix Multiple Builds


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1 hour ago, AliGauld said:

Nice work on those lights Mark.

That would scare the living daylights out of me.

 

Cheers,

 

Alistair

Thanks, Alistair, it was a bit fraught to start with but once I got going and it looked like it would turn out okay, it was quite therapeutic.

 

Cheers,

Mark

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1 minute ago, 2996 Victor said:

Thanks, Alistair, it was a bit fraught to start with but once I got going and it looked like it would turn out okay, it was quite therapeutic.

 

Cheers,

Mark

You're a braver man than me.

I've got a Kinetic F-18 to do at some point but there's a huge seam in the canopy and it scares me...... a lot.

 

Cheers,

Alistair

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14 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

One little detail,  the cutaway part of the 'doghouse' is the exterior colour,  not the interior grey green. 

45981916154_a1f5b9e04b_o.pngHurricane HW189 head armour by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

Though it's seems later on (this is HW189 in late 42 or early 43)  also the head armour was the exterior colour, though this may have been done at unit level.

More pics here, screen grabs  of a film.  And a very grubby Hurricane! 

Hurricane HW189

if you  zoom this famous shot KZ193,  the back  plate is  grey green, the cutaway is Dark Green.

7169778521_e56f7ba8c4_o.jpgHawker  Hurricane. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

49991141187_64d57c5fbf_o.jpgClose up of Hurricane Mk II d . by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

This crop of a famous image of BE500 shows the Dark Green retained after the overall Night.   Also of not how due to the flex of the canopy, how quickly the paint chips up on the canopy frame.....

 

I'm putting off having to peel some potatoes.....  does it show :whistle:

I'm biased, but it's a fascinating subject......

Hi Troy,

 

As always, thank you for sharing your knowledge!

 

The colour of the cut down area of the doghouse was something I was wondering about, but hadn't yet got to the point of worrying! That would have been something to think about soon, so thanks for confirming that. Interesting about the armour plate, though.

 

Interesting shot of HV663/U - is that one of the SAAF squadrons? I have a desert Mk.IId on my to-do list!

 

The canopy flex/chipping is something I need to look at more closely, as it seems to be a bit of a hallmark feature.

 

A bit of bias is never a bad thing: your depth of knowledge is astounding and I think we all owe you a debt of gratitude for sharing it.

 

Hope your spuds were successfully peeled? :)

 

Cheers,

Mark

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3 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

 

Hope your spuds were successfully pealed?

blinkin' daughter,  if it was me for mash I just chop them up and mash in the skins.... but madame is fussy... and one of the peelers is badly designed took the very tip off my little finger... 

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

Interesting shot of HV663/U - is that one of the SAAF squadrons? I have a desert Mk.IId on my to-do list!

6 sq, but often caption as 7 SAAF

see here

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235071194-hurricane-iid-6-squadron-leading-edge-wing-stripe-and-some-marking-observations/

 

Which covers quite a lot,  the 6 Sq Association didn't have any info on the leading edge stripes though, and the men they could have asked are no longer with us. 

 

There is another film clip, which shows a different 6 Sq Hurricane as well.   

 

 Though kits usually just have BP188/JV-Z as the option....    Any questions/clarifications, ask away, good sone make me think and can lead me to spot new details.

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4 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

A little bit of sneaky sanding and polishing, and the landing lights and wingtip navigation lights on both of the Arma Hurricanes are done :) 

http://IMG-3610.jpg

http://IMG-3612.jpg

 

The port wing landing light on the Mk.IIc wasn't quite in the right place - it was a smidgeon high in the wing with the result that on the undersurface it's marginally inset into the wing. It won't notice unless really looking for it, so overall very pleased! Now I can look forward to the re-scribing on the wings :( yay!

 

Thanks for looking in!

 

Cheers,

Mark 

Beautiful, and I'm learning so much. I'm hoping my Armas can look as good as this eventually!

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8 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

For those who may be interested, Daniel Brackx is cracking along with his updated Belgian Wings website :) and in the last week or so, the Hurricane Mk.I page has been completed :) :) :) - @Dave Swindell the fin and rudder of what's left of H-36 (formerly L2108) shows some nice stencilling!

 

Cheers,

Mark

Amazing resource, although sad to see H-25 (which is the one I'm building) with her nose in the mud! Not exactly an inspiring photo. 😂

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30 minutes ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

Beautiful, and I'm learning so much. I'm hoping my Armas can look as good as this eventually!

That's incredibly kind of you, ME, thank you!

 

I've got a way to go yet, and the re-scribing is a bit of a worry as I'm not much good at it yet! But I'm glad my ramblings are of help, although I'm sure much of what I've posted is more in the "how not to do it" category ;)

 

Cheers,

Mark

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21 minutes ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

Amazing resource, although sad to see H-25 (which is the one I'm building) with her nose in the mud! Not exactly an inspiring photo. 😂

It's incredible, isn't it? The Gladiator section is fascinating as well.

 

It's sad that the majority of the Belgian Hurricanes were destroyed almost immediately, and those that survived only did so for a very short time.

 

Cheers,

Mark

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13 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

blinkin' daughter,  if it was me for mash I just chop them up and mash in the skins.... but madame is fussy... and one of the peelers is badly designed took the very tip off my little finger... 

Ouch! Peelers can be nasty little gizmos..... I'd be happy with skin on and coarsely mashed: excellent! Have you ever tried celeriac mash? About 50/50 with the spuds, it's needs cutting small and boiling for a while, but it's a nice variation!

 

13 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

6 sq, but often caption as 7 SAAF

see here

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235071194-hurricane-iid-6-squadron-leading-edge-wing-stripe-and-some-marking-observations/

 

Which covers quite a lot,  the 6 Sq Association didn't have any info on the leading edge stripes though, and the men they could have asked are no longer with us. 

 

There is another film clip, which shows a different 6 Sq Hurricane as well.   

 

 Though kits usually just have BP188/JV-Z as the option....    Any questions/clarifications, ask away, good sone make me think and can lead me to spot new details.

Of course! Brain failure! For some reason I was expecting the flying can opener emblem, but I think that came later?

 

I've got a couple of the 3D Models conversion sets, and I'm planning on using an Arma Mk.IIb/c kit. Somewhere is a drawing of the IId wing panel lines, though I forget where! 

 

I was intending to do one of the 6 Sqn aircraft and I'd prefer to do one with just the individual code letter, so HV663/U  would be a great candidate.

 

Thanks as always! 

 

Cheers,

Mark

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4 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Thanks, Dave, that's really appreciated! I had a few "moments" during sanding where I thought I was going to have problems with them coming un-stuck, but luckily only the one came adrift! I'll have to be a bit careful with the masking and un-masking, though.....

 

Cheers,

Mark

Typically, my MO is to glue the lights in place, sand and blend them into the surrounding structure and get them sanded down to about 2000 grit, then i mask em off for painting and decaling. After the weathering and flat coat is on, i remove the masking that covered the clear area, then i mask around the periphery with a slight offset away from the clear part, and i polish them to final optical clarity with toothpaste and a 100% cotton t-shirt. Leaves my lenses sparkling and minty fresh!

 

But that's just me....

 

-d-

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9 hours ago, David H said:

Typically, my MO is to glue the lights in place, sand and blend them into the surrounding structure and get them sanded down to about 2000 grit, then i mask em off for painting and decaling. After the weathering and flat coat is on, i remove the masking that covered the clear area, then i mask around the periphery with a slight offset away from the clear part, and i polish them to final optical clarity with toothpaste and a 100% cotton t-shirt. Leaves my lenses sparkling and minty fresh!

 

But that's just me....

 

-d-

Hi Dave,

 

I'd never have thought of using toothpaste for the final polish - I'll definitely be trying that! And what's not to like about a minty-fresh aeroplane :D Does the toothpaste polish also affect the flat coat surrounding the lenses?

 

Cheers,

Mark

 

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16 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Have you ever tried celeriac mash? About 50/50 with the spuds, it's needs cutting small and boiling for a while, but it's a nice variation!

No, and my daughter is very fussy...  And since I'm not a huge fan cooking,  I'm resigned to a fairly small set of possible meals.    The mash was for Shepard's pie, which is one of the acceptable options.... 

 

16 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

For some reason I was expecting the flying can opener emblem, but I think that came later?

No, they are shown in the film.   BP188 didn't have one when photographed,  the film shows the emblem,  and must from a similar time.  

 

Quote

 

I've got a couple of the 3D Models conversion sets, and I'm planning on using an Arma Mk.IIb/c kit. Somewhere is a drawing of the IId wing panel lines, though I forget where! 

Forewarning, this is a bit of a ramble, and I hope it make sense, as it is till an area of unanswered questions.

 

PS EDIT

I'm not sure of how the IID wing looked,  the drawings suggest a modified IIC wing, which makes sense, as Hawker's built on existing designs

Such drawings as they are show this. And, photos of the IV wing show something very similar.   

Note, in the   photo of the IV wing how the front has the bays for the  C wing cannon. 

 

The following ramble is how close do the IID and IV wing look.  (and areas that  need further research)  

 

 

 

see here for more pics

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/59225-hurricane-mk-iv-service/

 

this one, from the Squadron book

hurri2d.jpg

 

 

 

or this, from the 1973 PSL book (which maybe where Squadron got it from?)  which is listed as IID, though the book does have errors....

this shows an inner large hatch with fasteners, like the IIC

35568750093_2fc3648c0e_o.jpgHurricaneIIdwingpanels1-24th by losethekibble, on Flickr

this is the IIC 

http://armahobbynews.pl/wp-content/uploads/hurricane-iic-walkaround-08.jpg

this shows the fasteners at the rear of the main cannon hatches, the panels behind are used to adjust the cannons,  which is why they are not on the D/IV wing,  but instead there is a small D shaped hatch, used to adjust the rear of the 40 mm cannon mounting on the Rolls Royce 40 mm gun.  This can have a bulged hatch fitted for the Rolls Royce 40 mm gun, not used operationally by the D/IV, but this bulged hatch can be seen fitted to the Mk.V prototypes. (it is described and illustrated in the MK.II manual) and is visible in the picture of KZ193 above. 

 

Now, this is something I'm unsure of

this image  of the Mk.IV in Belgrade, shows the upper wing panelling.  

36332251186_1d6d552ff8_o.jpg

 

Now, compare to the IIC, which has two large access doors, this has  the outer access door. 

Note the leading edge,   left to right, yellow stripe, blanked off light,  0.303 sighting gun, in outer cannon position, blanked panel,  camera gun.  wing join strip.

I'll edit in a C wing if I can find the right image.

this shows the front cannon access hatches removed

Hawker_Hurricane_LB611_Production.jpg

 

for a while I have though that the IV eliminates the inner door,  though after finally having dug out and READ the Mk.II manual,  as opposed to looking at the pictures, I mean diagrams,  I think that there is an inner door, but one that just does not have quick access fasteners, and is screwed down.  Sadly, the above are not close up enough to determine this, and maybe well be obscured by paint, and the only proper* Mk.IV in the UK  KX829 is hanging from the ceiling in Birmingham, in fake BoB markings to boot.   

(KX829 has a combat history, serving with 137 Sq in 1943, and is one of only two complete Mk.IVs surviving so this is doubly insulting... )**

 

Anyway, the manual lists various part numbers for doors,  all you need are pictures of those doors...  I was intneding to have a day at Hendon library at the end of March 2020...but something got in the way of that!

READING the manual also meant I noticed the paragraph that mentions the added bullet proof glass at the windscreen sides (one of the very few new, and useful images in the Valiant Wings book is the inside of the Belgrade Mk.IV windscreen,  and noticing the armour glass with puzzlement, though  they still miss the wing panelling, and the thin armour below windscreen, and the radiator stone guard, the latter two again in writing, but not illustrated in the manual.   The Valiant books has manual illustrations, but seems they have not read it....

 

 

Now, the manual also talks about Mk.IID and early Mk.IV specifically, as well a MK.IV

 

One thing I have not seen mentiones is the "early vs late" Mk.IID.     By this, the images of the BP188/BP158, HV633 etc, do not show the armoured windscreen, side armour and radiator bath armour, BUT this image of KX171, a IID, in Russia at the NII VVS

22-6.jpg

 

clearly shows cockpit, windscreen and radiator armour.

more pics here, scroll down, including detail shots of the Vickers S gun

http://aviadejavu.ru/Site/Arts/Art7497.htm

 

From memory (as my Air Britain are not too hand) MkIID's were only in the the 6th Hawker batch, which included BP***/HV***, and the 7th Hawker batch, which has KX171, so I suspect that the 7th batch went to Mk.IV standard, as the 7th batch is when the first Mk.IV's were built.

Not sure why they bothered making IID's and MkIV's at the same time, maybe just D wings leftover?  

 

Note, sticking IV wing on a IID does make it a IV, as there is added cockpit parts and controls for the IV.

 

THis is why I need to have a dig at Hendon and maybe other places!    There is also an aspect, what is of interest to modellers (small visual differences) may not be to a historian.    

Anyway,  does mean the neat thing for me is that there are parts of the the puzzle left to figure out....

 

 

Quote

 

I was intending to do one of the 6 Sqn aircraft and I'd prefer to do one with just the individual code letter, so HV663/U  would be a great candidate.

 

 

*there is a wreck, without wings, KZ191,  and there was "KX321" which apparently has IID wings, but still, modified too look like a IIC....  so pics online say 'tank busting Hurri' ...I'm sure I don't need to type out the rest of my rant....

see here for more on KX829, and Hurricane IV

 

** I'm now particularly fascinated by UK service of the IID and IV,  and the lack of good images... 

so this one was a treat

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235082558-hurricane-iv-ld863-438-sq-dec-3031-1943-photo-w-305th-and-401st-bg-b-17s-location-unit/

 

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4 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

No, and my daughter is very fussy...  And since I'm not a huge fan cooking,  I'm resigned to a fairly small set of possible meals.    The mash was for Shepard's pie, which is one of the acceptable options.... 

 

No, they are shown in the film.   BP188 didn't have one when photographed,  the film shows the emblem,  and must from a similar time.  

 

Forewarning, this is a bit of a ramble, and I hope it make sense, as it is till an area of unanswered questions.

 

PS EDIT

I'm not sure of how the IID wing looked,  the drawings suggest a modified IIC wing, which makes sense, as Hawker's built on existing designs

Such drawings as they are show this. And, photos of the IV wing show something very similar.   

Note, in the   photo of the IV wing how the front has the bays for the  C wing cannon. 

 

The following ramble is how close do the IID and IV wing look.  (and areas that  need further research)  

 

 

 

see here for more pics

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/59225-hurricane-mk-iv-service/

 

this one, from the Squadron book

hurri2d.jpg

 

 

 

or this, from the 1973 PSL book (which maybe where Squadron got it from?)  which is listed as IID, though the book does have errors....

this shows an inner large hatch with fasteners, like the IIC

35568750093_2fc3648c0e_o.jpgHurricaneIIdwingpanels1-24th by losethekibble, on Flickr

this is the IIC 

http://armahobbynews.pl/wp-content/uploads/hurricane-iic-walkaround-08.jpg

this shows the fasteners at the rear of the main cannon hatches, the panels behind are used to adjust the cannons,  which is why they are not on the D/IV wing,  but instead there is a small D shaped hatch, used to adjust the rear of the 40 mm cannon mounting on the Rolls Royce 40 mm gun.  This can have a bulged hatch fitted for the Rolls Royce 40 mm gun, not used operationally by the D/IV, but this bulged hatch can be seen fitted to the Mk.V prototypes. (it is described and illustrated in the MK.II manual) and is visible in the picture of KZ193 above. 

 

Now, this is something I'm unsure of

this image  of the Mk.IV in Belgrade, shows the upper wing panelling.  

36332251186_1d6d552ff8_o.jpg

 

Now, compare to the IIC, which has two large access doors, this has  the outer access door. 

Note the leading edge,   left to right, yellow stripe, blanked off light,  0.303 sighting gun, in outer cannon position, blanked panel,  camera gun.  wing join strip.

I'll edit in a C wing if I can find the right image.

this shows the front cannon access hatches removed

Hawker_Hurricane_LB611_Production.jpg

 

for a while I have though that the IV eliminates the inner door,  though after finally having dug out and READ the Mk.II manual,  as opposed to looking at the pictures, I mean diagrams,  I think that there is an inner door, but one that just does not have quick access fasteners, and is screwed down.  Sadly, the above are not close up enough to determine this, and maybe well be obscured by paint, and the only proper* Mk.IV in the UK  KX829 is hanging from the ceiling in Birmingham, in fake BoB markings to boot.   

(KX829 has a combat history, serving with 137 Sq in 1943, and is one of only two complete Mk.IVs surviving so this is doubly insulting... )**

 

Anyway, the manual lists various part numbers for doors,  all you need are pictures of those doors...  I was intneding to have a day at Hendon library at the end of March 2020...but something got in the way of that!

READING the manual also meant I noticed the paragraph that mentions the added bullet proof glass at the windscreen sides (one of the very few new, and useful images in the Valiant Wings book is the inside of the Belgrade Mk.IV windscreen,  and noticing the armour glass with puzzlement, though  they still miss the wing panelling, and the thin armour below windscreen, and the radiator stone guard, the latter two again in writing, but not illustrated in the manual.   The Valiant books has manual illustrations, but seems they have not read it....

 

 

Now, the manual also talks about Mk.IID and early Mk.IV specifically, as well a MK.IV

 

One thing I have not seen mentiones is the "early vs late" Mk.IID.     By this, the images of the BP188/BP158, HV633 etc, do not show the armoured windscreen, side armour and radiator bath armour, BUT this image of KX171, a IID, in Russia at the NII VVS

22-6.jpg

 

clearly shows cockpit, windscreen and radiator armour.

more pics here, scroll down, including detail shots of the Vickers S gun

http://aviadejavu.ru/Site/Arts/Art7497.htm

 

From memory (as my Air Britain are not too hand) MkIID's were only in the the 6th Hawker batch, which included BP***/HV***, and the 7th Hawker batch, which has KX171, so I suspect that the 7th batch went to Mk.IV standard, as the 7th batch is when the first Mk.IV's were built.

Not sure why they bothered making IID's and MkIV's at the same time, maybe just D wings leftover?  

 

Note, sticking IV wing on a IID does make it a IV, as there is added cockpit parts and controls for the IV.

 

THis is why I need to have a dig at Hendon and maybe other places!    There is also an aspect, what is of interest to modellers (small visual differences) may not be to a historian.    

Anyway,  does mean the neat thing for me is that there are parts of the the puzzle left to figure out....

 

 

 

*there is a wreck, without wings, KZ191,  and there was "KX321" which apparently has IID wings, but still, modified too look like a IIC....  so pics online say 'tank busting Hurri' ...I'm sure I don't need to type out the rest of my rant....

see here for more on KX829, and Hurricane IV

 

** I'm now particularly fascinated by UK service of the IID and IV,  and the lack of good images... 

so this one was a treat

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235082558-hurricane-iv-ld863-438-sq-dec-3031-1943-photo-w-305th-and-401st-bg-b-17s-location-unit/

 

 

Hi Troy,

 

many thanks for your reply, and apologies for the delay in responding - there's quite a lot of info to digest, and I don't think I've managed it yet :) Perhaps, if I may make a few observations and you can correct me where I'm wrong?

 

Looking at the drawing from the Squadron book (Squadron Signal In Action No.72 or Walk Around No.14?), it appears that, from a modelling perspective, the changes to the panel lines are quite straightforward, and can be accomplished with a bit of filing to remove the cannon bulges, filling a few lines with putty, and scribing a few others! I find it interesting that the guns of the Mk.IIc and Mk.IId are on the same centres, presumably because the 0.303" sighting guns were fitted into the outer Hispano bays, while the Vickers Ss relied on the hard points of the inner Hispano bays above them. Incidentally, was the D-shaped panel for adjusting the Rolls-Royce cannon retained on production Mk.IIds?

 

Given that the, shall we say, "Desert" MkIIds don't seem to be fitted with the armoured radiator, cockpit and windscreen (have I got that right?), would it be reasonable to presume that the "early" Mk.IIds were allocated to the Desert Air Force while the Mk.IIds that went to Russia were "late" and did have those features? Mk.IV fuselages using up Mk.IId wings as you said, perhaps? Where do the SEAC aircraft fit into this, I wonder.

 

The shots of the Belgrade Mk.IV are very interesting - you mentioned that the Valiant Wings book was disappointing generally, such a shame when there is useful new info contained in it as well! And what a tragedy about the Birmingham Mk.IV - that needs to be rescued and restored to airworthy condition if at all possible!

 

Thanks again for the additional info, and the links to other threads - that'll keep me quiet for a while! I know this is going to be subjective and potentially contentious, but what are the good books on the Hurricane? I've got the Haynes Manual (lol!), Hawker Hurricane Mk.I-V by Martyn Chorlton, the WingLeader Mk.I book arrived today, as did a copy of Hurricane at War 2. Years ago, I did have a Monograph, one of a series, but I can't remember the author or even where its hiding! Most annoying!

 

Cheers,

Mark

 

PS hope the shepherd's pie was appreciated!

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24 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

would it be reasonable to presume that the "early" Mk.IIds were allocated to the Desert Air Force

No.  Some IID's operated in the UK,  184 Sq had them,  as far as i can see, this is a early IID, I can see rad armour or windscreen/decking armour

http://www.184squadron.com/New 184 Album/pages/Sqn-Ldr Jack Rose DFC.html

 

The valiant book claims only 184 sq had IID's in the UK, but I'd have to check Air Britain (these are books of RAF serials, with squadron allocation and sometimes details of loss, I was lucky enough to pick up the WW2 related volumes from a sale on here, they are handy,  but even at a bargain price of about £4 a volume,  it's still quite an investment, I think I have 18 volumes....  it is also a very sobering realisation of just how many planes were made during the war...) anyway, there is no specific list of IID, or IVs,  they are mixed into the respective production batches...  the main reason for the AB books was that they do list the subtype....  and they have been very helpful in photos identification.  (eg, the LD863 thread, the 6 Sq thread) 

 

Some may well have ended up in SEAC,  5 and 20 Sq operated IID's,  but I know of 3 photos,  two are KX serials, and this, listed at the IWM as

"Ground crew servicing a Hawker Hurricane Mark IID, HW861, of No. 20 Squadron RAF in a dispersal under the trees by the beach landing strip at Nidania ('George') on the coast of Bengal, India."

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205212852

 

Hurricane-IId-RAF-20Sqn-at-Nidania-Benga

 

Though it's not totally clear, and I don't have the AB to check.  Anyway, this lacks the windscreen armour, and I can't see any rad or decking armour.

 

And.... well. I need to add more, but also, I need to feed the child again..... 

 

56 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

hope the shepherd's pie was appreciated!

It was eaten...tonight it's bolognaise,  it's been on slow simmer for 6 hours,  which really sweetens up the tomatoes...    blinkin' great vat of it, works on baked potatoes as well, and then it gets portioned up and frozen.

 

more later

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10 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

And.... well. I need to add more

I can't thank you enough for all of this!

 

10 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

tonight it's bolognaise

Enjoy! :)

 

Cheers,

Mark

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2 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Looking at the drawing from the Squadron book (Squadron Signal In Action No.72 or Walk Around No.14?), it appears that, from a modelling perspective, the changes to the panel lines are quite straightforward, and can be accomplished with a bit of filing to remove the cannon bulges, filling a few lines with putty, and scribing a few others!

Yes.  The underside is different,  as there is a panel for the 40 mm magazine drum.   Again,  I don't have details of the IID, but there are pics online of KX829 in B'ham,  one time where being hung up is of use! 

2 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

I find it interesting that the guns of the Mk.IIc and Mk.IId are on the same centres, presumably because the 0.303" sighting guns were fitted into the outer Hispano bays,

which is what I meant about hawker building on what works.

2 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

while the Vickers Ss relied on the hard points of the inner Hispano bays above them.

Don't know.  If you mean the posted drawing with dotted lines, note that the gun is further out than the D door, so maybe wrong.  the gun should line up with the D door.   

Again, this is where a dig at Hendon may provided the answers.

2 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Incidentally, was the D-shaped panel for adjusting the Rolls-Royce cannon retained on production Mk.IIds?

It's on the Mk.IV,  it's in the manual.   As the wing was set up to use the RR gun, I can't see why not.  It may also (see point about the alignment) have been used to adjust the rear of the Vickers S mounting,  for sighting purposes.

2 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

And what a tragedy about the Birmingham Mk.IV - that needs to be rescued and restored to airworthy condition if at all possible!

I recently got  Hawker Hurricane Survivors,  and it talks about the amount of work need to get the Shuttleworth Sea Hurricane back in the air, and this was the other Hurricane at Loughbourough along with KX829.    The reason for all the airworth Hurricanes is they are basically 'new' , rebuilt around the data plate, and a few original components, all the structural bits are new.

It would be neat to see KX829 back in 137 Sq markings, was marked SF-C BTW.   the full history is known, but I don't think there are wartime pics.  I have some 137 Sq Hurricane IV pics though.

3 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

 

The shots of the Belgrade Mk.IV are very interesting - you mentioned that the Valiant Wings book was disappointing generally, such a shame when there is useful new info contained in it as well!

There are some useful walkround pics. Note the Belgrade hurricane also has a CM/1 spinner, which is rare, the IIC at  Manston I just noticed has one,  but that's it AFAIK.  All the others have the ES/9 unit.

3 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

I know this is going to be subjective and potentially contentious, but what are the good books on the Hurricane? I've got the Haynes Manual (lol!),

I got one in a charity shop.  It's OK.   A few useful pics.

3 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Hawker Hurricane Mk.I-V by Martyn Chorlton,

Not got this

3 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

the WingLeader Mk.I book arrived today,

best one on early Hurricane in years, as it's photo heavy, plus they are not the same old images.

3 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

as did a copy of Hurricane at War 2.

great book.  before i forget, there are some pics of IID and IV with 164 and 184 Sq in Hurricane At War 2.

3 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Years ago, I did have a Monograph, one of a series, but I can't remember the author or even where its hiding! Most annoying!

Hmm, there are good books on the Hurricane, but these tend to be  rather specific,   but there is not a really good general book on the Hurricane.  Most are based on the work of F.K. Mason, and   reproduce their faults.   

 

The Hurricane at War 1 and 2 are great, as  they are mainly photos.     

I have been weaving together information, a lot is based on study of photos along with data from other sources, actually, the A.L Bentley drawings had a load of good info on them as notes, which have been very useful over the years.   

 

This one is the one that set me off,  and I have a soft spot for 

md30468983861.jpg

 

via a jumble sale box of random books when I was 8, (so 1974)  which I still have, and was maybe the first serious Hurricane book published? (Mason worked for Hawkers, so had good access)

It is the reason I'm here writing this now, it's not a child's book.   I still have it, though the dust jacket went a long time ago.  

 

I had decided age 6 that the Hurricane was my favourite, as it was different from the standard schoolboy response of 'Spitfire',  for favourite aircraft   and getting this book made me a 'expert'.   I do know that I knew all the Hurricane variants then as a result, and even converted a Airfix mkI/IIb into a IIC,   using two sets of the kit 40 mm cannon barrels,  and used  Humbrol putty to  make 'springs' , I added a lump to the barrle and then used my fingernail to press in the spring detail... and maybe even the wing bulges,    with hand painted codes from a profile in the book.  Sadly this has not survived, so was pretty crude.... but, I was I think, 9?  I assume I got the idea of conversions and putty from  chap in the village who built models.   Did set up a worrying pattern for later life, but i did at least finish it.  

 

And many of the images are seared into memory as a result,  it has (for the time) a decent selection of pics.  Many are the ones that turn up again and again as a result... for example, the pic of HW861 is in there, as is the one of BP188.

 

I just PM you, the book I mention is a updated/re written of this. 

 

I'll have to have a ponder,  my main criteria for books is photos, so there are more historical ones I don't have, or only have as a pdf.   Plus my library is split between two places,  and neither is very well organised or accessible at the moment.  

 

I appreciate there can be a bit of an overload, not helped by it being spread about, you may note that later links revise older ones,  it's an ongoing process,  really I lot of what i do is collate available information,  still, at least that means if I ever get to look into proper archives, I'm grounded in what is not available.

 

And, at least here,  folks are interested.  Can you imagine how many 'civilians' I can blather this to?  I mean I can, but I understand if it's not of interest its incredibly dull....

 

cheers

 

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Nice work on the lights Mark :) 

As you say, polishing with Micromesh with increasingly fine grades, not pressing and using each grade at right angles to the last. Easy peasy.

I have the kit that includes a bottle of fine paste but I guess toothpaste works too!

 

Congrats on the new arrival too :) 

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10 hours ago, CedB said:

Nice work on the lights Mark :) 

As you say, polishing with Micromesh with increasingly fine grades, not pressing and using each grade at right angles to the last. Easy peasy.

I have the kit that includes a bottle of fine paste but I guess toothpaste works too!

 

Congrats on the new arrival too :) 

Thanks, Ced, that's praise indeed :) I'm finding MicroMesh quite nice to work with, but the key does seem to be minimal pressure and let the material do the work. For the final polish, I'll see how I get on with Dave's toothpaste method - thinking about it, Jane's younger daughter was advised to use it to polish out a scuff on her car, and it worked a treat!

 

Thanks for the congrats :) he's a great little chap, and the advantage is we get to give him back :) 

 

Cheers,

Mark

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23 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

 

Hurricane-IId-RAF-20Sqn-at-Nidania-Benga

What's spread in a cross pattern on the ground? It doesn't look like PSP Perforated steel plates.

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1 minute ago, Shalako said:

What's spread in a cross pattern on the ground?

I'd suggest some kind of  vegetation/leaf matting,  Note the fence in the background.   A good spot, not noticed it before, as i was just staring at the Hurricane....

Perhaps something @tonyot might know about? 

  

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Hi Troy,

 

many thanks for the additional info. Apologies for not having responded sooner, but I've been playing my part in the garden today, reluctantly I might add, but needs must and all that!

 

20 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Yes.  The underside is different,  as there is a panel for the 40 mm magazine drum.   Again,  I don't have details of the IID, but there are pics online of KX829 in B'ham,  one time where being hung up is of use!

 

20 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

which is what I meant about hawker building on what works.

 

20 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

It's on the Mk.IV,  it's in the manual.   As the wing was set up to use the RR gun, I can't see why not.  It may also (see point about the alignment) have been used to adjust the rear of the Vickers S mounting,  for sighting purposes.

 

I'll have to have to have a close look at photographs as (foolishly) I didn't realise that there were underwing bulges on the Mk.IId wing.

 

20 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

I recently got  Hawker Hurricane Survivors,  and it talks about the amount of work need to get the Shuttleworth Sea Hurricane back in the air, and this was the other Hurricane at Loughbourough along with KX829.    The reason for all the airworth Hurricanes is they are basically 'new' , rebuilt around the data plate, and a few original components, all the structural bits are new.

It would be neat to see KX829 back in 137 Sq markings, was marked SF-C BTW.   the full history is known, but I don't think there are wartime pics.  I have some 137 Sq Hurricane IV pics though.

I suppose so - perhaps in this case, sensitive conservation would be more appropriate? 

 

20 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Hmm, there are good books on the Hurricane, but these tend to be  rather specific,   but there is not a really good general book on the Hurricane.  Most are based on the work of F.K. Mason, and   reproduce their faults.   

 

The Hurricane at War 1 and 2 are great, as  they are mainly photos.     

I have been weaving together information, a lot is based on study of photos along with data from other sources, actually, the A.L Bentley drawings had a load of good info on them as notes, which have been very useful over the years. 

That's good to know, but the difficulty for a returnee to the aviation world is of course sorting the wheat from the chaff. I'm going to have to get a copy of Hurricane at War 1 as well, but any other good suggestions are welcomed with open arms.

 

20 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

This one is the one that set me off,  and I have a soft spot for 

md30468983861.jpg

 

via a jumble sale box of random books when I was 8, (so 1974)  which I still have, and was maybe the first serious Hurricane book published? (Mason worked for Hawkers, so had good access)

It is the reason I'm here writing this now, it's not a child's book.   I still have it, though the dust jacket went a long time ago.  

 

I had decided age 6 that the Hurricane was my favourite, as it was different from the standard schoolboy response of 'Spitfire',  for favourite aircraft   and getting this book made me a 'expert'.   I do know that I knew all the Hurricane variants then as a result, and even converted a Airfix mkI/IIb into a IIC,   using two sets of the kit 40 mm cannon barrels,  and used  Humbrol putty to  make 'springs' , I added a lump to the barrle and then used my fingernail to press in the spring detail... and maybe even the wing bulges,    with hand painted codes from a profile in the book.  Sadly this has not survived, so was pretty crude.... but, I was I think, 9?  I assume I got the idea of conversions and putty from  chap in the village who built models.   Did set up a worrying pattern for later life, but i did at least finish it.  

 

And many of the images are seared into memory as a result,  it has (for the time) a decent selection of pics.  Many are the ones that turn up again and again as a result... for example, the pic of HW861 is in there, as is the one of BP188.

I think we all have books that had a seminal influence on the development of our interests, and while I can't think of an aviation-related book such as yours (I think OS Nock's GWR 4-4-0 Tender Locomotives and the RCTS Locomotives of the Great Western Railway Volume 2 (Broad Gauge) were mine!) although for as long as I can remember I've read memoirs such as Paul Richey's Fighter Pilot, Pierre Clostermann's The Big Show, Johnnie Johnson's Wing Leader, and countless others! I've got numerous books that belonged to my Dad when he was a youngster that were aviation related as well.

 

Thanks for the PM, any other suggestions for library additions are always welcomed!

 

With kind regards,

Mark

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1 hour ago, Shalako said:

What's spread in a cross pattern on the ground? It doesn't look like PSP Perforated steel plates.

 

52 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

I'd suggest some kind of  vegetation/leaf matting,  Note the fence in the background.   A good spot, not noticed it before, as i was just staring at the Hurricane....

Perhaps something @tonyot might know about? 

 

 

51 minutes ago, Shalako said:

Perhaps bamboo?

 

45 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

Possibly, bamboo was used

https://pacificwrecks.com/airfields/philippines/lingayen/1945/lingayen-airfield-build.html

"Marston matting placed over woven bamboo"

 

37 minutes ago, Shalako said:

Yeap, that's what I thought.:thumbsup2:

Very interesting - definitely looks like woven bamboo or some from of woven rush matting. Obviously does the job the PSP does, but has the advantage that it can be made from materials readily to hand without the need to transport bulky pre-formed sheets.

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