Detailing an engine

[A_S]

Hi guys

 

i just want to add some subtle detail to an engine block for a 1/12 F1 car I’m building. Luckily I have a test piece to try some things out on. I was wondering what everyone’s techniques are. I’ve tried a few things and not got anything I’m quite happy with.

 

ive used Tamiya panel Line accent and an oil was from humbrol. The combination looks good but is a bit too weathered/strong. On the left hand side top of the block i mixed up my own wash But it’s too grey and doesn’t have the same pop as the black.

 

how do you guys do this in terms of colour and application - run round the edges or brush on across the whole part? I did a mixture of both and used a cotton bud to smear some across the block.

 

block

 

 

before:

 

 

after

 

[JeroenS]

I think you should take a look at this thread here: 

 

 

[silver911]

Hi,

Jeroen has kindly linked you to my thread...but looking at your pictures...my instincts tell me my techniques would be too complex for you.

If you could tell us what experience you have...and what materials you have to hand...such as which paints you generally work with...acrylics...enamels...laquers etc. ...do you use rattle cans (aerosols)...or have an airbrush...or just brush paint everything.

In answering these questions...members...and certainly myself...will be better placed to offer you some advice on how to achieve the look you desire.

 

Regards

 

Ron

[A_S]

Thanks - I’ve just read your full thread - fantastic. You are right - I’m still learning ‘advanced’ painting but please ignore the test peice - apart from the weathering/detailing the base paint coat came applied - it’s from a wreck of a Tamiya 312T I bought on eBay 15 years ago! That’s why it appears brush painted.

 

experience wise I’ve been building kits for 20 years including a couple of brass locomotives - now that’s a skill with all the bending and soldering, filling and forming of parts but paint wise I’m pretty basic...

 

I do use an airbrush - an Iwata with a 3.5mm needle. I am fairly inexperienced with it, only bought it about 5/6 months ago As I’ve just got back into my modelling have painted 2 cars with it. One in this thread. 

 

 

paint wise I use Tamiya acrylic, lacquer, zero paints, humbrol enamels and Alclad. I planned to do my main block in Alclad dull aluminium but keen to combine it with something else to get a similar effect to yours.

 

I’d like to do something similar as you did to your block but do the scrub coat and thinning with thinned enamels over the Alclad if possible.

 

thanks for the offer of help

 

Andy

Edited September 5, 2020 by A_S

[silver911]

Hi Andy,

your answers help me a lot in understanding your painting level and experience...nice job on the 'Evo' by the way.

 

Couple of points...your airbrush needle would be be 0.35 mm (not 3.5 mm) unless it's a full size workshop gun...and your paint choices are somewhat difficult to apply my techniques to.

First off...and this is purely a matter of personal choice and opinion...I absolutely hate Alclad !...sure...it looks great when first airbrushed onto a piece...and provided you walk away and never touch that piece ever again...all will be ok...however...the finish is very fragile (adhesion is poor)...it won't take even the lowest tack masking tape without pulling off...and...even if you clear coat it with their own clear...you cannot use other finishes over it...so no good in terms of anything other than 'showroom' shiny...weathering is a no no.

Another problem would be lacquers over acrylics...the lacquer will melt the acrylic...although you can put acrylic over lacquers for weathering...just seal the lacquer first...then you can apply either acrylic or enamels over it...for example...washes or dry brushing.

With regard to my personal techniques...you cannot replicate them using mediums other than oils over acrylics...your idea of enamels in a scrub coat simply won't work...both for the problems mentioned regarding Alclad...and the properties of enamels themselves in terms of dying etc.

You could get a similar result...although it won't be as subtle or convincing...by either base coating in enamels or acrylics...then using washes...which you could fade back in areas by using kitchen towel or cotton buds to dab the wash off.

It may seem like I am self promoting my own techniques...I promise you...that is not the case...ever.

You have a number of options with the mediums you have available...but there are some you must avoid for the reasons given above...and...if it were me...I would use acrylic metals as a base...seal them...then apply enamel washes...dab off as explained above...let it dry...then return to acrylics for dry brushing.

 

I hope this helps you mate...and...as said...these are only my personal opinions...others may disagree...or offer other options.

If I can be of any help please ask.

 

Best 

 

Ron

 

Edited September 5, 2020 by silver911
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[A_S]

Thanks, I need to do a bit of research to see whether the alcald are acrylics etc - you mention using 2 vallejo colours to get the basic colour on the engine block and allowing the paints to mix together on the part - which Vallejo colours were they? I might try those, again need to check whether they are acrylic etc so i know if I can do the weathering over the top of them. As things stand I may use your technique of applying a wash and brushing off with a cotton bud, thats what Idid on the test peice (where its overly black around the edges).

 

Still a little bit of time till I get to this point though, so I'm not in any rush. Currently rebuilding the radiator frame out of brass.

[silver911]

Alclad are lacquers.

The paints I used for the base colours are from the Vallejo 'Metal Color' range of airbrush acrylics...and the two colours I used on the engine block were Duraluminium and White Aluminium...only because I judged them to be closest to the shades I wanted as a base.

I would suggest you look at their range of colours...they have several very useful shades which are well suited to engines in particular...although...if you intend to brush paint your colours...I would be more inclined to use Vallejo Model Air...they are slightly better for brush application.

By using acrylics...and...as long as you seal them...your options are plentiful...as long as you don't apply lacquers over them as it will melt the acrylics...other than that...you can choose acrylic...oil paint or enamel washes over the base shades...just remember...my techniques will only work with an acrylic base and oil paints for the scrub coat...you cannot scrub and wipe enamels or acrylics.

You could look at after market products from the likes of AK Interactive...who have a diverse range of 'out of the bottle' effects to choose from...but you have to seal your base coat first for best results.

 

Ron

Edited September 8, 2020 by silver911
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[A_S]

Thanks Ron

 

I've been having a look at the Vellejo colours on the web but their little swatches don't give a great clue as to what the colours are!

 

I'm trying to understand what you mean by this Ron - apologies for all the questions

 

..I don't use just one colour...I use at least two...and sometimes more on each piece...and always avoid a flat and even coat...so that I can take advantage of the different reflective properties of each colour.

For the parts in the pictures that follow...I have used Vallejo Metal Color paints throughout...there are five basic shades across the spread of parts...with each one receiving a mist coat of another colour...and the large bulkhead getting two other colours over the base coat.

Note;...one thing that I make constant use of...is that acrylics...although appearing dry in a short time...actually take a few hours to dry fully...it's this aspect that I make use of when overlaying another colour or colours...as they dry they will 'bleed' into each other...so the separation between colours will soften and create a subtle gradation of colour.

Colours used were Duraluminium...White Aluminium...Pale Burnt Metal and Exhaust Manifold...all were sprayed at 24 psi...with two drops of thinner to each airbrush cup of paint...with the overlay colours sprayed at 18 psi...and worked close in.

You will hopefully see what I mean by varying the coverage...and also allowing the airbrush to spit a few times here and there for further effect in preparation for the oil paint effects that follow this stage.

It wasn't easy to get decent pictures...metals are always a pain...but you should get the idea.......

 

So for paining the block do you paint a base colour, say flat aluminium @ 24 PSI then before it drys a few mist coats of other colours on top @ 18 PSI close in?

 

Am i understanding that correctly?

 

Also another question I've had for a while (and i've yet to watch a video or read a post that conceptulises it well for me) is what is a mist coat - is this a coat sprayed from further away, without covering everything? I.e If i sprayed a mist coat on the primer I'd still see the primer through it?

[silver911]

I am more than happy to try and answer all your questions mate.

Let's see if I can explain things better and bring a bit of clarity into it for you.

 

First off...where metallic paints are concerned...unless you have a physical sheet of plastic...with each individual colour sprayed in blocks on it...you won't know what they will look like...the same goes for viewing colours on-line...monitors cannot display metals either.

Another issue with acrylic metals is what colour primer to use...gloss black is commonly used...people believe that it adds more shine/reflection to the paint...not in my experience...similarly...grey and white primers are said to dull metals...again...not true.

I would suggest you download a .pdf of the Vallejo Metal Color range...it won't show the colours in their true light...but what it will do...is show which you can expect to be bright...and those that will be darker/duller.

 

Now...where my personal base shades are concerned...and as stated...I always use at least two shades...in two separate applications...to achieve a more realistic/natural finish...this is because all metals reflect light differently...and you can pick out more than one colour in any flat metal...notice I say 'flat'...this is because polished metals tend to reflect the colours around them...rather than in them.

 

For example...there are many shades of Aluminium...normal...dark...flat...white and polished are the most common...and each reflects light differently in real life...which is what I try to replicate in my work...and is best done with more than one colour in the base shade.

 

Before I explain my technique differently...in the hope it will be easier to understand...let's answer your question on what a 'mist' coat is.

You have pretty much answered it yourself to be honest...but I will take it a little further for you...and give you the reasoning behind doing it.

If you compare a fog to a mist...you take the fog as being thick and impenetrable...and a mist as being thin and gauzy...effectively...you can still make out things through it...and it's the same with paint...you want the previous colour to subtly show through your mist coat...rather than disappear into it.

 

With this in mind...my way would be...first...an overall flat coat (flat being the fog) of Duraluminium...sprayed from about 4 - 6 inches away from the surface...the psi I quote is what suits my airbrush needle/nozzle size (0.2 mm) with these paints.

For the 'mist' coat...I drop the pressure to 18 psi...so that I can work closer in to the surface...roughly 2 - 4 inches.away...and control the areas of colour better where I want them lighter.

 

You could do the mist coat differently...and apply it lightly all over...but...if doing it this way...you need to increase the distance to about 12 inches...and move the airbrush much more rapidly across the surface...to avoid covering/blocking out your base colour altogether...and building very slowly until you have the result you want.

 

My mention of using the acrylics true drying time to work in my favour is the same as figure painters do...in as much as they work a lot like 'watercolours' and intermix with surrounding colours as they dry...and this will give you soft and subtle edges between colours.

To help the colours bleed a little better...add an extra couple of drops of thinner to the second colour...and also to following colours if using more than two.

If you use acrylics for washes once your base shades are dry...you will notice that the edges are softer when dry...because you have thinned them a lot more than for spraying.

 

I hope the above will help you...but...as said...feel free to ask as many questions as you need to.

 

I don't have a spare engine block as you do...otherwise I would paint it in two halves...with one side being purely in acrylics...and the other using my usual technique with acrylics and oils...and send it to you...which would probably help you much more than words.

 

 

 

Ron

 

 

 

[A_S]

Thanks - your explanations are great.

 

my love o model shop does stock the Vallejo paints so I’m going to go down today or Monday and make a choice. I’ll probably test out on some spoons first applying the flat coat and then the mist coat.
 

do you apply the mist randomly or do you target using reference photos?

 

how long do you leave between the base and mist coats? 10/15 mins or so?
 

thanks

Andy

[silver911]

Get only what you think you will need...vary the shades so you can always inter mix if needed to avoid unnecessary cost.

 

My golden rule is always to work from reference pictures...simply because that is what you are trying to replicate.

 

You can mist coat over your base coat after ten minutes quite happily.

 

Ron

[A_S]

Thanks - had a go experimenting on some spoons and my test block this afternoon. It didn’t go too well - but I didn’t expect to get it right first time.
 

The pale burnt metal shot out the airbrush like nobody’s business - at the same PSI as the dull aluminium I was getting a lot of runs when trying to apply a wet coat. Turning down the pressure and limiting my aperture etc produced some artifacts and not an overly flat finish but I felt this might be a characteristic of the colour?
 

the dull aluminium was not very dull - it was very shiny compared to the Alclad which at this stage looks a much better colour for a DFV block - which was a very dull light grey.
 

this is the Vallejo dull aluminimum with a bit of pail burnt metal over the top. To be honest the shades are just to similar for me to determine what I’m actually spraying and if it’s adding any texture.

 

 

 

I did the same with the pail burnt metal over the Alclad dull aluminium and I much prefer this finish. Left of the Ferrari was sprayed with the Alclad dull aluminium thenthe burnt metal - you can see the rough finished previously mentioned. I Thinned it slightly with Tamiya x-20 acrylic thinners. I couldn’t find much info on the best thinning method so this seemed as good as any.

 

to the right is standard Alclad dull aluminium with no mist coat over the top

 

 

 

as I say - the thing I found hardest was A.) getting the burnt metal to spray at a level that went on in a mist. I ended up at about 4/5psi and only opening The aperture half way and b.) actually noticing the mist making any decernsble difference to the colour when applied on Vallejo’s dull aluminium. Consequent I probably applied too much trying to make it a noticeably different shade.

 

much to ponder on and more practice to be had. Unfortunately the shop didn’t have the full range in stock so I couldn’t try the durainium which might have made more of a difference!

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by A_S

[silver911]

I can help you better if I know a few things;

What airbrush and compressor are you using?

Did you prime the piece first...if so...what primer did you use?

Which of the colours did you buy?

 

A couple of things strike me...Pale Burnt Metal and Dull Aluminium are too close in shades...which is why you could not detect a difference when over spraying.

For you to be getting runs is down to a number of reasons...too thin...too close...not moving the airbrush quickly enough across the piece (engine)...and another cause is a basic rule with airbrushing...always begin and end the spray off the object...in other words...press the plunger before you spray onto the object...and release the plunger after the object...never start and stop whilst the piece is in front of the AB...this can cause spatters in the surface...at the start and end of the spray pass.

With regard to not being able to get a 'mist'...distance...speed of travel...and paint consistency are the key factors.

With regard to thinners...my personal belief is that you should always use brand for brand...this is because...there are subtle differences in the chemistry of each brand...and their own brand is proven to work.

The 'texture' you refer to is caused by the underlying Alclad (lacquer) reacting to the acrylic above...you may like the effect...just be aware that it may worsen.

Where 'dull' metals are quoted...Alclad is the only one I know of that is what it says...and is why...if I want a truly dull finish...I matt seal it.

I obviously don't know what experience you have under your belt Andy...and if you already know all this just ignore my words.

My instincts tell me you are fairly new to advanced paint techniques...if that is not the case...then please enlighten me...so that...if you require my help further...I can better advise you.

 

Regards

Ron

 

[cmatthewbacon]

Citadel (Games Workshop) have a great range of washes for bringing out detail, and they are pretty easy to find. There’s a pure black and a blue-black and brown-black which is very useful...

best,

M.

[A_S]

On 13/09/2020 at 13:59, silver911 said:

I can help you better if I know a few things;

What airbrush and compressor are you using?

Did you prime the piece first...if so...what primer did you use?

Which of the colours did you buy?

 

A couple of things strike me...Pale Burnt Metal and Dull Aluminium are too close in shades...which is why you could not detect a difference when over spraying.

For you to be getting runs is down to a number of reasons...too thin...too close...not moving the airbrush quickly enough across the piece (engine)...and another cause is a basic rule with airbrushing...always begin and end the spray off the object...in other words...press the plunger before you spray onto the object...and release the plunger after the object...never start and stop whilst the piece is in front of the AB...this can cause spatters in the surface...at the start and end of the spray pass.

With regard to not being able to get a 'mist'...distance...speed of travel...and paint consistency are the key factors.

With regard to thinners...my personal belief is that you should always use brand for brand...this is because...there are subtle differences in the chemistry of each brand...and their own brand is proven to work.

The 'texture' you refer to is caused by the underlying Alclad (lacquer) reacting to the acrylic above...you may like the effect...just be aware that it may worsen.

Where 'dull' metals are quoted...Alclad is the only one I know of that is what it says...and is why...if I want a truly dull finish...I matt seal it.

I obviously don't know what experience you have under your belt Andy...and if you already know all this just ignore my words.

My instincts tell me you are fairly new to advanced paint techniques...if that is not the case...then please enlighten me...so that...if you require my help further...I can better advise you.

 

Regards

Ron

 

 

Apologies for the delay, busy week at work and I've been working on the chassis today.

 

Airbrush is an Iwata eclipse with a 0.35mm needle

Compressor came with a cheapish kit of amazonn

the peice in the pictures was just over sprayed, I didn't prime first, I sprayed over whatever metal silver finish the original painter had used to paint it years and years ago. The spoons I painted were primed with Tamiya fine surface primer light grey

 

Colours I bought were only the pale burnt metal and dull aluminium, as there wasn't a lot of choice. What shades would you recomend to get a good contrast in finish? unfortunatly the shop didn't have a lot of choice/stock, plus they are bloody expensive when your "testing" and don't really know what you need!

 

I also have the alclad dull aluminium that I purchased previously.

 

regarding the runs - it just seemed a lot thinner than the dull alunimium, same settings and it was hard to get a consistant finish, hard to describe. not so much runs but more an inconsistant wet finish. Its hard to explain!

 

 

I'm still undecided which way to go. I need a duller, darker finish finish than the valejo dull aluminium produces, which the Alclad provides. I guess an option is to clear coat the alclad with matt varnish - but would it acheive a similar base colour to the below? The other alternative is to try and acheive a similar effect using Alclad rather than Vallejo. I presume this would work?

 

 

As you can see the DFV block was very "flat".

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by A_S

[Six97s]

I've used a variety of Alclad finishes and I like some of them, but I'm old school and my go-to for cast aluminium remains a mix of Humbrol matt white with a few drops of silver.  Similarly, for cast magnesium, a mix of matt black and silver works for me.   

[silver911]

Personally...if you prefer the Alclad....then go with that for sure...as they have a very good range of colours...where my main concern has always been their poor durability...you could seal them...which...as previously mentioned...would expand the range of effects you could then apply.

It's a great shame they don't do a white...as the DFV...as you rightly point out...is a very pale/matt finish.

Also...as Six97s points out...you could use enamels.

Alclad do quote an enamel range...maybe shop around for availability near you...if no shop...then there's always good old Ebay.

To be honest...my techniques are comfortable to me...and there is no finish I cannot replicate...but for you...it's a matter of finding what works best for you.

Please keep me updated...I will try to help in any way I can.

 

Ron

 

Edited September 20, 2020 by silver911
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