Sea Gladiator

[825]

Heather's @Heather Kay latest build has galvanised and motivated me to join in the GB with this. It doesn't have an 804 NAS option but as far as I can see there wasn't too much in markings so should be able to sort something from a combination of the kit markings, left overs from other builds and some generic markings for the serials. 

 

 

I won't go much deeper into 804's contribution to the BoB bur they used Sea Gladiators initially for the defence of the Fleet at Scapa Flow out of RNAS Hatson, with a sojourn on HMS Glorious, before re-equipping with the Martlet towards the end of the Battle. The boxing is a double option of a Gladiator/Sea Gladiator. And one of the Gladiators is a BoB option based at RAF Rosborough to defend Plymouth. 

 

 

The plastic is quite soft and has a bit of flash. Mind you there are only 33 parts, 32 if you take into account the fact there are optional props. 

 

 

And a nice bundle of detail as resin. 

 

 

and a couple of vac form canopies to allow for crack handedness. 

 

 

A nice transfer sheet for 5 options, with a variety of schemes. 

 

[825]

The FAA colour schemes in 1940 are quite confusing as has been discussed in Heather's build. I've found two profiles, and I know profiles are high risk, for 804 Gladiators in 1940. The first is labelled as at Hatson

 

 

While the second shows on HMS Glorious. 

 

 

The BoB was after the Norwegian campaign and the first seems to have Sky grey undersides. As Sky replaced Sky Grey in mid 1940 and the FAA probably wouldn't have re-painted back after leaving Glorious, I am tempted to go with the Sky undersides and the low demarcation. Probably the lower wings will be in the shadow scheme of Light Slate Grey and Dark Sea Grey. 

 

Any help, suggestions, ideas and inspiration welcome. 

[Heather Kay]

Ooh! Nice choice!

 

For the camo scheme, my preference - based on what I’ve read - would be for the earlier one. The later Sky underside wasn’t universal for quite a time, and possible dates to after November 1940. Do you have Lloyd's FAA camo book? 
 

 

[Grey Beema]

1 hour ago, 825 said:

The FAA colour schemes in 1940 are quite confusing as has been discussed in Heather's build. I've found two profiles, and I know profiles are high risk, for 804 Gladiators in 1940. The first is labelled as at Hatson

 

 

While the second shows on HMS Glorious. 

 

 

The BoB was after the Norwegian campaign and the first seems to have Sky grey undersides. As Sky replaced Sky Grey in mid 1940 and the FAA probably wouldn't have re-painted back after leaving Glorious, I am tempted to go with the Sky undersides and the low demarcation. Probably the lower wings will be in the shadow scheme of Light Slate Grey and Dark Sea Grey. 

 

Any help, suggestions, ideas and inspiration welcome. 

According to Sturtivant

N2272, 804 NAS (uncoded) from 12.39 to 09.40. Hatston, then Yeovilton / Duxford 787 NAS from that date.

N2274, 804 NAS from 12.39 to 09.40.  

 

Both aircraft were were originally delivered to Worthy Down c.01.39.

 

I would guess S1E Scheme (Extra Dark Sea Grey / Dark Slate Grey / Sky Grey) until June 7 when they should have gone to pale sky blue undersides as per Admiralty instructions.

 

If I were you, I would talk to @iang who would know the Stuart Lloyd book and its references really well..

 

 

[Tim Moff]

Great stuff 

 

I’m (trying) to build the 1/48 Roden - having fun with the engine and casing 🤣

 

will watch along as mine is 804 NAS and I’ve a similar colour conundrum!

[825]

5 hours ago, Heather Kay said:

Ooh! Nice choice!

 

For the camo scheme, my preference - based on what I’ve read - would be for the earlier one. The later Sky underside wasn’t universal for quite a time, and possible dates to after November 1940. Do you have Lloyd's FAA camo book? 
 

 

Thanks Heather, I'm afraid I don't have Lloyd's book. I have looked at a number of my FAA books to see if there's any pictures of Sea Gladiators or even HMS Glorious with some on deck. But to no avail. I'm inclined to follow your advice as most Skuas at this time were Sky Grey and I don't think with the imperative of the impending Battle of Britain, 804 NAS would be taking their fleet defence fighters out to repaint. 

 

3 hours ago, Grey Beema said:

According to Sturtivant

N2272, 804 NAS (uncoded) from 12.39 to 09.40. Hatston, then Yeovilton / Duxford 787 NAS from that date.

N2274, 804 NAS from 12.39 to 09.40.  

 

Both aircraft were were originally delivered to Worthy Down c.01.39.

 

I would guess S1E Scheme (Extra Dark Sea Grey / Dark Slate Grey / Sky Grey) until June 7 when they should have gone to pale sky blue undersides as per Admiralty instructions.

 

If I were you, I would talk to @iang who would know the Stuart Lloyd book and its references really well..

 

 

Thanks GB. First it's good to know that both aircraft in the profiles were from 804 NAS. I think the challenge is were the aircraft repainted in June/July after returning from Norway? The implementation of Admiralty (and Air Ministry) orders took time to work through at the front line. We see that with the variety of underside colours on RAF BoB fighters. It's a bit of a conundrum. I'll keep looking and perhaps @iang may pop along and help out. 

 

Anyway I've given the resin a clean, tidied up the worst of the flash and put some paint on.

 

 

 

The kit is a real mix, the plastic is very hard and the moulding a little soft. There's no locations and everything is a butt join, with some clear locations and some particularly in the interior not very clear. On the other hand the resin is of a highest quality.

 

[825]

26 minutes ago, Tim Moff said:

Great stuff 

 

I’m (trying) to build the 1/48 Roden - having fun with the engine and casing 🤣

 

will watch along as mine is 804 NAS and I’ve a similar colour conundrum!

Good luck with your build, I'll watch and see how you cope with the camouflage conundrum. 

[Grey Beema]

I don’t know if this is any use to you, it is the Rodeo 1/48 Sea Gladiator which I found it a bit of a mojo killer and it sat on the naughty shelf for about a year before it was finished.

 

I did mine as N5517/6°A 813(F) NAS HMS Eagle, Mediterranean, Jul-40.

 

 

This Sea Gladiator is in S1E Scheme with Black/white IFF Markings.  I suspect a UK based Squadrons might have implemented the Sky blue undersides more quickly than a carrier based Squadron in the Mediterranean.

 

Hope it helps.

[iang]

5 hours ago, 825 said:

 

 

Thanks GB. First it's good to know that both aircraft in the profiles were from 804 NAS. I think the challenge is were the aircraft repainted in June/July after returning from Norway? The implementation of Admiralty (and Air Ministry) orders took time to work through at the front line. We see that with the variety of underside colours on RAF BoB fighters. It's a bit of a conundrum. I'll keep looking and perhaps @iang may pop along and help out. 

 

 

There are three photos of 804 Squadron Sea Gladiators in the summer of 1940 in my FAA Camouflage and Markings book (Stuart Lloyd is a pseudonym) These photos are of  N5573, N5533  and N2276. I have a few more that I didn't use (including a couple from the 804 Squadron Diary). N5533 and N2276 are photographed taking off from Furious between June and September 1940. Prior to this 804 Squadron was deployed on Glorious. I have some screen shots of Pathe film of Sea Gladiators on Glorious during the Norwegian campaign (either 802 or 804 Squadron).  Camouflage evolution followed Admiralty instructions  (S1E scheme with black and white IFF underside markings during the Norwegian campaign overpainted by the time they embarked on Furious, with no underwing roundels). Most retain high demarcation camouflage and upper surface roundels could be either A or B type, according to the photos in the squadron record book  The only real unknown is the undersurface colour used to overpaint the IFF markings. This could be Sky or sky-blue.  The Admiralty instruction to paint with a sky-blue colour did go to Glorious, but only a day before the ship was sunk. Furious was not on the distribution list, but all RNAS were, so it's possible that 804 squadron aircraft while at Hatston or Campbeltown had their IFF markings over-painted with sky-blue (a mix of roundel blue and white I would guess).  Certainly the undersurfaces appear dark in the photos of N5533 and N2276, so they could be sky-blue; alternatively they could be Sky in shadow. At present, it is only known for sure that sky-blue was used on Ark Royal's fighters.

HTH,

 

IG

Edited September 3, 2020 by iang

[825]

8 hours ago, iang said:

 

There are three photos of 804 Squadron Sea Gladiators in the summer of 1940 in my FAA Camouflage and Markings book (Stuart Lloyd is a pseudonym) These photos are of  N5573, N5533  and N2276. I have a few more that I didn't use (including a couple from the 804 Squadron Diary). N5533 and N2276 are photographed taking off from Furious between June and September 1940. Prior to this 804 Squadron was deployed on Glorious. I have some screen shots of Pathe film of Sea Gladiators on Glorious during the Norwegian campaign (either 802 or 804 Squadron).  Camouflage evolution followed Admiralty instructions  (S1E scheme with black and white IFF underside markings during the Norwegian campaign overpainted by the time they embarked on Furious, with no underwing roundels). Most retain high demarcation camouflage and upper surface roundels could be either A or B type, according to the photos in the squadron record book  The only real unknown is the undersurface colour used to overpaint the IFF markings. This could be Sky or sky-blue.  The Admiralty instruction to paint with a sky-blue colour did go to Glorious, but only a day before the ship was sunk. Furious was not on the distribution list, but all RNAS were, so it's possible that 804 squadron aircraft while at Hatston or Campbeltown had their IFF markings over-painted with sky-blue (a mix of roundel blue and white I would guess).  Certainly the undersurfaces appear dark in the photos of N5533 and N2276, so they could be sky-blue; alternatively they could be Sky in shadow. At present, it is only known for sure that sky-blue was used on Ark Royal's fighters.

HTH,

 

IG

Ian, thanks for this, it's really helpful. And it explains some why what I thought was Sky Grey in one of the profile is probably Sky-blue. It's obvious that I need to get your book and that is on my 'to do' list as a priority. Thanks again. 

[iang]

I should add that I think repainting with Sky is more likely for aircraft at Royal Naval Air Stations. Ark Royal was at sea when the order to repaint undersides of fighters with Sky was issued (as were Illustrious and Glorious), followed by a "clarifying" message that this new colour was a sky-blue colour. Sky would not have been available in the ships' paint lockers, so to comply with the new Admiralty orders, a local match was the only possibility (which is why I believe the sky-blue carried on Ark Royal's fighters was a mix of roundel blue and white). RNASs were in a different position. They all received the same cypher messages as the carriers mandating the application of the new colour (and the clarifying message that followed), but Sky was potentially available, although known to be in short supply.  Therefore, in the absence of any archeological evidence, the colour of the undersurfaces of  804 Squadron Sea Gladiators after June 7th 1940 is more likely to be Sky, though sky-blue is still a possibility.

Edited September 4, 2020 by iang

[825]

@iang thanks for all your advice, it's been really helpful and I'll follow your advice. Sky undersides under an S1E upperworks. 

 

The cockpit assembled and inserted. 

 

 

The engine painted and assembled. 

 

 

The fuselage closed up, and boy oh boy was it hard work.  Then the lower wing on. Everything taped up until dry and ready for a bit of filler. 

 

[825]

The joints were filled with Perfect Plastic Putty and subsequently cleaned up. I was pleasantly surprised that not much was needed and the seams were not all that bad after the fight I had to get everything to align and close up. The empanage has been added too. 

 

 

On the underside the arrestor hook insert has been added along with the machine gun housings on the lower wing. The instructions tell you to drop the insert in near the end but it would have fitted better as the fuselage was closed up. I put in some strips of plastic card to stop it falling through and it fell in anyway. After a bit of fettling and juggling I got it more or less in. A bit of filing and filling will be needed but we'll get there. 

 

[825]

Some Sky on the underside. Will take a few thin coats. 

 

[CliffB]

It's nice to see a Gladiator in the mix 

[825]

My copy of Stuart Lloyd's book has arrived and it's a superb reference source. The pictures of 804's Gladiators in the book show them with 2 blade props. There is a 2 blade option in the kit but it has a spinner moulded on. That's not such a problem as it can be sawn off and tidied up. The challenge is there's a serious moulding flaw which could cause problems. 

 

[PeterB]

Hi,

 

Would it still have the belly mounted dinghy pack as it was shore based? I know that pics of ones in Malta seem to show it had been removed, but if they were "in between" carriers I suppose they may have left it on.

 

Pete

[825]

14 hours ago, PeterB said:

Hi,

 

Would it still have the belly mounted dinghy pack as it was shore based? I know that pics of ones in Malta seem to show it had been removed, but if they were "in between" carriers I suppose they may have left it on.

 

Pete

There's a picture of a line up of 804's Sea Gladiators at Hatson in summer 1940 in Stuart Lloyd's book. The nearest, and therefore the largest airframe in the photograph, shows a distinct shape where the dinghy pack would be. As the majority of these aircrafts' flights would be over the sea, the Orkneys being a collection of relatively small islands and the role of 804 was Fleet protection over Scapa Flow, I think the dinghy would still be an important piece of kit. Added to the fact that even in the summer the North Sea off the Orkneys is pretty cold, as a pilot I would prefer to be sitting in a dinghy rather than freezing to death in the water, if I came down in the drink. I'll be adding the pack to the build. 

[825]

Engine attached and dinghy pack affixed. There's a little filler needed to smooth the dinghy pack join out. Otherwise not looking too bad. I'll paint the airframe to completion at this point before adding the undercarriage, struts and upper wing on. Everything is a butt joint so I'm wondering if some pins might help. 

 

 

[Stew Dapple]

Good progress mate; regarding the pins, necessary or not they couldn't hurt  

 

Cheers,

 

Stew

[Pedagogue54]

PeterB,

Hi!

"The Sea Gladiators on Malta were standard Fleet Air Arm pattern except that they were assembled without arrester hooks, dinghies, or sea markers. The assembled fighters were subsequently fitted with armour plate behind the pilots’ seats and with variable-pitch three-blade airscrews."
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/malta.htm

[825]

On 9/16/2020 at 6:09 AM, Stew Dapple said:

Good progress mate; regarding the pins, necessary or not they couldn't hurt  

 

Cheers,

 

Stew

Thanks Stew, I'm thinking of something for the main struts and the undercarriage and try to slip the cabane struts in with just butt fitting. 

 

21 hours ago, Pedagogue54 said:

PeterB,

Hi!

"The Sea Gladiators on Malta were standard Fleet Air Arm pattern except that they were assembled without arrester hooks, dinghies, or sea markers. The assembled fighters were subsequently fitted with armour plate behind the pilots’ seats and with variable-pitch three-blade airscrews."
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/malta.htm

Thanks Pete. The Malta Sea Gladiators were assembled in early 1940 from 'spares' left crated on the island. The Sea Gladiators of 804 NAS although from the same batch and had probably passed through or being at Malta previously, were not of that crated group. They were in action over Norway based on HMS Glorious, defended Scapa Flow, based at RNAS Hatson in the Orkneys, during the Battle of Britain and then were operational on HMS Furious until they were swapped for Martlets. They would have had their arrestor hooks while at sea but removed probably when based at Hatson to save weight. There's a good picture of 804 Sea Gladiators lined up at Hatson in Stuart Lloyd's book which clearly shows that they have their dinghy packs and all of them have Watts two blade props. FAA pilots reportedly preferred the Watts prop a swap it gave better climbing performance. Although only in service with the FAA and the Malta Fighter Flight for a relatively short time the Sea Gladiators went through a variety of liveries and fits. 

[825]

Work is progressing on, the underside paint is finished and masked off. So some Dark Slate Grey on the fuselage and Light Slate Grey on the lower wings. A few coats will be needed. Also started on the Sky on the upper wing. 

 

 

And now some Extra Dark Sea Grey on the fuselage and Dark Sea Grey on the wing. 

 

 

Although I filled the defect in the Watts spinner in the kit, I had a look in the spares stash and found a couple of others. I think the one without a spinner is Airfix and that with is Revell/Matchbox. Now the quandary. The detail on the Airfix is better but the blades look a bit anaemic, the Revell/Matchbox blades look better but after sanding down the spinner the front is devoid of detail. Some thinking to be done, methinks. 

 

[825]

Masking off and the cowling ring masked and painted. 

 

 

You can also see the holes drilled for the pins for the struts. I've done the same for the undercarriage legs. Now some transfers on. I thought it best to get these on before tackling getting the upper wing on. I've tried to see if there were any markings on the 804 aircraft while at Hatson but the photos are not all that clear but I couldn't see any. What I said clear is the absence of underwing roundels.  I'll check out the serials and make them up from stock. The engine became loose so its taped on pending the transfers drying. 

 

 

The canopy has been cut out, it needs a little tidying and trimming before a dip in Kleer and masked. 

 

 

 

[dogsbody]

On 23/09/2020 at 05:43, 825 said:

Although I filled the defect in the Watts spinner in the kit, I had a look in the spares stash and found a couple of others. I think the one without a spinner is Airfix and that with is Revell/Matchbox. Now the quandary. The detail on the Airfix is better but the blades look a bit anaemic, the Revell/Matchbox blades look better but after sanding down the spinner the front is devoid of detail. Some thinking to be done, methinks. 

 

 

I'd ask if anyone has a spare two-blade from the Airfix kit. Though that Revell/Matchbox prop looks quite nice and way better than the other one.

 

 

 

Chris