Lacquer Safety Concern

[SneakySpriggs]

Evening all.

 

I've recently had one of those moments, where you think about something you've done and realise you've been an idiot. I've been scale modelling for only just over 2 years now, and for the last 1.5 years i've used an airbrush. More specifically, since about 1 year ago i've used lacquer thinners (specifically Mr Hobby Levelling) with mainly Tamiya (normal "Acrylic") paint, after seeing it mentioned a lot and seeing some great results.

 

Before people panic too much about what i'm about to say, I HAVE been using a spray booth (one of those chinese ones everyone seems to have, though I am a bit worried about the suggestions i've seen it could be a fire hazard, and I know it's maybe not safe for it, I have an extinguisher for this reason...), and open window and a respirator (with A2 filters for organic solvents). HOWEVER, my "worry moment" came with the sudden thought that the entire time i've done this, I have been able to smell the lacquer. While it's definitely less strong and noticeable than without my mask (which I guess is how I rationalised it in my mind), it's definitely still detectable. The real understanding of why this is happening is clear in retrospect, I have a beard, and it's likely my mask doesn't make a full seal. I've tested the mask on my wife and, yes, that seems the cause.

 

I've decided to try and move away from lacquer thinners going forward as I think the concern around it is going to be too much even with a full sealed mask (unless I shave I suppose...), but i'm really struggling to get out of my head that I might have done serious/permanent damage in that time. I've only sprayed 5 models total in that time (most of them fairly small) so my sensible mind suggests i'm likely fine with maybe 10-15 hours total spray time over a whole year, and I know the mask was at least partially working (and I have the booth on and window open)...but does anyone have any insight or tips? I've also never gotten any immediate problems, like headaches or anything.

 

I know this isn't a medical forum, but looking online all day i've not found much to allay my concerns and don't really want to go to the doctors for something so trivial sounding. Thanks in advance!

[dogsbody]

Can't say anything about health effects, but I know mask safety. I worked in an oilsand extraction plant for 35 years and every year we had a health test ( hearing, eyesight, breath and mask fit ). As the plant operators, we had to be clean shaven at all times. We also had basic fire training. In case a fire started, we were first response until the on-site firefighters got there. So yeah, your beard is letting outside air ( and fumes ) inside.

 

 

 

Chris

[Jochen Barett]

1 hour ago, SneakySpriggs said:

...  I have a beard, and it's likely my mask doesn't make a full seal. I've tested the mask on my wife and, yes, that seems the cause. ...

One could

- shave

- ignore the problem

- switch over to water based paints

- use a liberal amount of vaseline to make the beard gas tight

 

(I'd ignore it. No risk, no fun!)

[Nick Belbin]

1 hour ago, SneakySpriggs said:

The real understanding of why this is happening is clear in retrospect, I have a beard, and it's likely my mask doesn't make a full seal. I've tested the mask on my wife and, yes, that seems the cause.

You mean your wife has a beard as well??

[Filler]

I do sometimes wonder whether our hobby is tantamount to suicide and why on Earth we're actually allowed by the authorities to buy and use these substances. They are either potentially lethal or vicious enough to cause severe illness or lord knows what else.... birth defects?

 

In California for example, isn't mdf banned? But can you still buy and use Mr Color paints/thinners?

 

And resin dust is also lethal isn't it? And what about all the other filling and sanding we do - is that also as big a threat to our lungs as Covid-19?

 

Kind of bizarre that we all risk the health and lives of ourselves and perhaps those we live with too in the pursuit of having a small plastic replica of something sat gathering dust on a shelf.

[SneakySpriggs]

Thanks for replies, not helped calm my nerves honestly! You make a good point though Filler. I feel realistically especially with decent protection I'm sure it's safe. I suppose my main thoughts are that unless people are spraying for significant amounts of time very regularly, you would hope it's not enough to cause serious harm. I have no idea though...I think for me it's unlikely I've done any permanent damage, but certainly it's possible with enough exposure.

 

There's lots of older modellers on here (I'm only 26) but I would love some insight into those who've been modelling for a long time. Did people used to airbrush or similar without protection? How are older modellers faring in terms of potential long term issues? It feels, if anything, that it's an area without much research or such going on.

[Steve Noble]

If we thought about everything we do/did in life we probably wouldn't do much at all. All paints are bad for you if you're breathing the vapours. I probably think you haven't inhaled much, mask not sealing properly aside.

[colin]

Probably time to take up another hobby, one without any risks

[Jochen Barett]

On 03/09/2020 at 15:19, SneakySpriggs said:

Thanks for replies, not helped calm my nerves honestly! You make a good point though Filler. I feel realistically especially with decent protection I'm sure it's safe. I suppose my main thoughts are that unless people are spraying for significant amounts of time very regularly, you would hope it's not enough to cause serious harm. I have no idea though...I think for me it's unlikely I've done any permanent damage, but certainly it's possible with enough exposure.

 

There's lots of older modellers on here (I'm only 26) but I would love some insight into those who've been modelling for a long time. Did people used to airbrush or similar without protection? How are older modellers faring in terms of potential long term issues? It feels, if anything, that it's an area without much research or such going on.

So, you are not smoking (and don't visit places where other people smoke), not drinking any alcohol or coffee (not to mention consumption of any other drugs), you do not have any asbestos, mdf or lead in your house, you are not operating a car using (and evaporating) fossil fuels, you are not eating any food that has a crust on it, there is no treatment on the wood in your house, ... and you don't have any chinese products in the house or your sports bag evaporating tons of plasticizers?

 

If that's the case, I think you may risk inhaling a few ppm of volatile organic compounds due to a not perfectly tight gas mask every four weeks - otherwise: Go with the vaseline to make that mask's fit gas tight.

 

In the olden days you'd sniff the glue and have an open pot of thinner (lighter fluid or cellulose thinner) on the table brushing the old Humbrol model paint happily away (ruining the table cloth). Your dad and the fire place would be smoking, the car ran on leaded fuel (no catalytic converter), the house was insulated using asbestos, the water pipes were made of lead, you'd drink lots of coffee and maybe a whisky (at the age of fourteen with your dad's supervision) to calm your hand for a delicate paint job - until your mom calls to eat some fried fatty food with lots of red meat in it. It was wonderful! You'd even ride your bike on your way to school without a helmet on your head! But today the airbrushed built models look way better than fourty years ago.

 

Don't worry! (or use the vaseline)

[Nick Belbin]

30 minutes ago, Jochen Barett said:

In the olden days you'd sniff the glue and have an open pot of thinner (lighter fluid or cellulose thinner) on the table brushing the old Humbrol model paint happily away (ruining the table cloth). Your dad and the fire place would be smoking, the car ran on leaded fuel (no catalytic converter), the house was insulated using asbestos, the water pipes were made of lead, you'd drink lots of coffee and maybe a whisky (at the age of fourteen with your dad's supervision) to calm your hand for a delicate paint job - until your mom calls to eat some fried fatty food with lots of red meat in it. It was wonderful! You'd even ride your bike on your way to school without a helmet on your head!

 

Oh happy days! 🕯

[SneakySpriggs]

53 minutes ago, Jochen Barett said:

So, you are not smoking (and don't visit places where other people smoke), not drinking any alcohol or coffee (not to mention consumption of any other drugs), you do not have any asbestos, mdf or lead in your house, you are not operating a car using (and evaporating) fossil fuels, you are not eating any food that has a crust on it, there is no treatment on the wood in your house, ... and you don't have any chinese products in the house or your sports bag evaporating tons of plasticizers?

 

If that's the case, I think you may risk inhaling a few ppm of volatile organic compounds due to a not perfectly tight gas mask every four weeks - otherwise: Go with the vaseline to make that mask's fit gas tight.

 

In the olden days you'd sniff the glue and have an open pot of thinner (lighter fluid or cellulose thinner) on the table brushing the old Humbrol model paint happily away (ruining the table cloth). Your dad and the fire place would be smoking, the car ran on leaded fuel (no catalytic converter), the house was insulated using asbestos, the water pipes were made of lead, you'd drink lots of coffee and maybe a whisky (at the age of fourteen with your dad's supervision) to calm your hand for a delicate paint job - until your mom calls to eat some fried fatty food with lots of red meat in it. It was wonderful! You'd even ride your bike on your way to school without a helmet on your head! But today the airbrushed built models look way better than fourty years ago.

 

Don't worry! (or use the vaseline)

Jochen, thanks for the reply. It's a good bit of perspective I think! I unfortunately have an anxiety disorder and it makes it very easy to focus on things like this and get a bit shaken. I'm not so worried now, but I think I will probably avoid lacquer thinner from now on and stick to acrylic paints, to be safe. Cheers!

 

This reminds me, I should post some of my recent work on here...!

Edited September 5, 2020 by SneakySpriggs

[JohnT]

In truth I suspect form what you have described that there is very little measurable risk involved.  When one reads of this sort of risk its easy to get it quite out of proportion.  I have reached the tender age of 67 and luckily maintain decent health so far.  

1 hour ago, Jochen Barett said:

In the olden days you'd sniff the glue and have an open pot of thinner (lighter fluid or cellulose thinner) on the table brushing the old Humbrol model paint happily away (ruining the table cloth). Your dad and the fire place would be smoking, the car ran on leaded fuel (no catalytic converter), the house was insulated using asbestos, the water pipes were made of lead, you'd drink lots of coffee and maybe a whisky (at the age of fourteen with your dad's supervision) to calm your hand for a delicate paint job - until your mom calls to eat some fried fatty food with lots of red meat in it. It was wonderful! You'd even ride your bike on your way to school without a helmet on your head! But today the airbrushed built models look way better than fourty years ago.

 

By "olden days" Jochen means the 1960's - I will speak to you later Jochen, "olden" indeed .  However Jochen has painted a picture I recognise only too well being a product of that time.  He has missed out a few other hair raising no -no's that we would scream at today which was current back then.  Cars with no inertia reel pre-tension seat belts, safety air bags or crumple zones for one thing.  Certain pesticides on food and in the air for another.   It will be a familiar story to many members "of a certain age".  You are very unlikely to have sustained any adverse consequences so far.  It would be sensible to look at how you use the products.  keep them in an area thats well ventilated when using for a start.  Look at other types of mask that might get around the beard problem.  Its all really a question of balance and as the great late Eric Brown said at his old schools former pupils address the one thing he learned as a test pilot was that life is about taking risks - not wild risks but carefully calculated measured risk which provided a benefit that justified the risk take.  

 

I would say not to worry, keep the area well ventilated and carry on.

 

You could try a quick shave and see what the end results are like and if Mrs Sneaky Spriggs approves - if she doesn't it will grow back !!

[dogsbody]

I grew up, in the 60's, in a house that was built in 1888. It was heated by a wood-burning furnace and had a wood-burning kitchen stove, Mum and Dad both smoked. We lived on a dirt road and drove our bikes on that without wearing any kind of protection. There were all our farm animals around with their various waste products in their pens and in the fields. I've drank water from the outside cattle trough, scooping it up with my bare hand, that I had casually wiped off on my shirt.

At age 12, I discovered model airplanes and in the next dozen years I built at least 150. That's a lot of glue fumes!

 

After I finished school, I got a job at the local greenhouses. There I have sprayed various herbicides, fungicides and pesticides, including DDT. At age 25, I moved west and spent the next 35 years working in an oilsand extraction plant, where there were some various high-end hydrocarbons floating around. From age 16 to age 36, I smoked about a pack a day.

 

I am now 65 and in moderately good health. Maybe snug that mask up a little tighter and you too could live to be a grumpy ol' bugger like me!

 

 

 

 

Chris

[Matthew1974]

I remember helping my dad apply dope to his RC planes in the basement with no ventilation when I was a kid (not sure if it is called something else overseas) - the the stuff would smell fierce.  After some minutes I would ask him about the elephants flying around the room.  Back on point, I love Mr. Color, the best model paint in my opinion but because I lack a spray booth vented to the outdoors, I hardly ever use it.  If I must (I like some of their colors for certain subjects), I wait until my wife is out for the day, open all the windows and spray away.  I still feel a little flush after 30 minutes of spraying though.