Nato Sabre F-86K queries

[John B (Sc)]

Help wanted please.

 

Some years ago I bought several 1/48 Revell F-86D kits, intending to build one as a USAF D model and then paint up a  couple  of others as NATO aircraft - particularly Norwegian and Luftwaffe or Dutch models since I recall those from 1960s airshows at Leuchars and elsewhere.  In my innocence and ignorance I had not realised the F-86K was not simply an export D model, but a significantly changed aircraft. (Quieten down that laughter at the back, there!)

 

Denmark & Greece had F-86Ds, so that at least is simple.  If I wanted to do another European air arm,  the 'non-aligned'  Yugoslavia is an option of course! 

An article in this month’s SAM reminded me of my F-86 building plan, but apart from mentioning the MHM kit and noting that it is possible to use the wings from the Revell/Hasegawa F-86F-40 for the later F-86Ks, the article is rather tantalising. Clearly the author knows his subject well but frustratingly gives some useful information almost in asides, while the painting of the superbly finished model gets the really detailed coverage! Reference books on  the subject seem hard to find, sadly.

 

Hence a few questions, hoping that experts on here will be able to add some more light.

 

The MHM kit seems hard to find and is expensive if found.  In any event, since I am a frugal Scot and also go back to the days of WR Matthews & Alan Hall (of RAF Flying Review and Airfix Magazine etc fame), I am inclined to try modifying the kits I have rather than trying to source the MHM replacement fuselage.

To model the aircraft with cannon instead of the rocket pack looks to be fairly straightforward, though I think I should increase the forward fuselage length by ~6 inches. Not sure exactly where the increase is, possibly at the front of the armament bay? (which would make the alteration a ~ simple one.)  I might try cheating and ignore that for a first model.  Looking as carefully as I can at the pictures I have found, the nose does seem slightly longer and slimmer, or am I kidding myself? 

 

The wings provided in the Revell kit are provided with separate slats which makes for a nice display, since that is how many Sabres appeared when parked. However, the wing is the ‘short’ one. My understanding is that Fiat built several batches of F-86Ks, most with the short wing. At least one batch was built with the longer -40 wing and some earlier builds were retrofitted with that wing.  According to the SAM article the Dutch, Norwegians, French and Italians all sued the short wing.  For Germany apparently JG 74 used the -40 wing version. Did other German users like JG 75 do the same or did they have the long wings too?  Did other users exclusively use the ‘short’ wing?  Knowing the tendencies in those days, I have a suspicion that it is quite likely that some oddities crept in!

 

No doubt there will have been other changes between the ‘short’ wing and the -40 wing variants, probably involving fuselage access panels and /or intakes & outlets. That I shall worry about later on.

 

Meantime, any help or thoughts are welcome.

 

 

 . 

[Silver Fox]

The conversion is not as simple as it seems, this should show were the extra length has to be added.

/F86D to K by 

Diagram courtesy of Sabrejet

 

Depending on the F-86D boxing you have you may need to alter the tail to incorporate the parachute fairing, the upper drawing is of a early batch D and the lower one showing the K has the later tail configuration, I can't remember at what block the change was made to the F-86D,  Block -50 IRRC but many early Dogs were converted and had a 1 added to their block number, so a Block-35 became a Block -36. Revell made two different kits, the early one was issued by Revell and the late one by Revell of Germany when they first were released but since then a number of re-issues had ve been made. Check your kits.

The missile box needs to be re-scribed and  the guns and fairings added. A new combing for the cockpit needs building and a gunsight adding. That then gets you a short winged K. The original ones were delivered in this format to many NATO air forces and the Must Have kit is exactly this so saves a lot of work. It comes with decals for five aircraft and they are all excellent, I found it hard to choose which one to do so I bought another kit, (given I'm a Yorkshireman, that says something about the quality of the kit).

 

The Luftwaffe had a large number of short winged Ks delivered but none saw active service as they were re-winged with the longer -40 wing as the SAM article mentioned. To make one of those there is the Special Hobby F-86K but I am loath to mention it as it is a bit of an interesting build. I have built three so I am a glutton for punishment. My last one's fuselage halves were a different sizes and no two points coincided. 

I converted a D into an L using the wings of a Hasegawa F-86F-40 but it was a lot of work again no commonality at all. The article seemed to miss out some of the issues I had but I tried to retain the belly of the D. 

 

Sorry this is a bit of a ramble but I hope it helps. 

 

 

[Giorgio N]

Even tho' the SH kit may not be as easy to build, it is today the easiest way to have a NATO F-86K ! As showed by Silver Fox, converting a D is not as simple as it looks on first sight. The SH kit IIRC is correct from the start, personally today I'd rather use the time to deal with its fit foibles rather than to convert a D. It's also a relatively cheap kit to buy, that does not hurt.

 

Regarding the wings, it is true that Fiat built Ks with the original short wing but this was soon replaced with the longer F-40 type on all aircraft in service. The same occurred to NAA built aircraft. Aircraft in the serial number range 56-4116/56-4160 received the F40 wing directly on Fiat's production lines. The order for the modification was issued in 1959 and from what I understand this was implemented quite quickly

Regarding users, all Italian aircraft received the F40 wing and the same happened to all the ones in Dutch service. IIRC the Norwegian aircraft also received the longer wing while all German aircraft had it from the start. Don't know exactly about the French ones, since their aircraft are listed in the S/N that were supposed to receive the modification I guess they were also modified

Now when I say that the previous countries used long-winged F-86Ks, this means that, with the exception of Germany, they had all aircraft modified. Of course this also means that a number of aircraft entered service with the original short wing. From a modeller's perspective this means that it's possible to build say a Dutch aircraft with either wing depending on timeframe. Of course this will require some previous check of the markings.

Telling one type of wing from the other is not easy unfortunately. By looking at as many pictures as possible of the two types you may learn how to tell them by checking the relative position of the leading edge at the root with the vents on the gun cover panel.  Alternatively, if the picture shows the upper surface, you can tell the type by the pitot tube: cranked on the early wing and straight on the long wing.

Edited September 2, 2020 by Giorgio N

[Silver Fox]

AFAIK all the surviving French machines were  put through modification at Fiat from 1959  to have the wing change and from July 1960 to be wired for Sidewinder. 29 machines had the latter modification.

 

Giorgio, you quite right if you want a long winged K the Special Hobby is better than modification of the D. If you just want any K get the Must Have kit.

[John B (Sc)]

Thanks 'Silver Fox' & Giorgio. Most useful information. 

 

The fuselage change is unexpected, given the main change was ( I thought) to the armament. The parachute housing point is most helpful Giorgio - I have both early and late variant kits, it turns out. I suspected the F40 wing would be more common than first suggested, thanks.   I recall much discussion from some years back about day fighter Sabre wing options; I shall look that up to debate what cross kitting might be done to give me a 'short wing' day Sabre or two.  I shall also look into the challenges of the SH kit as well. One of those may give me a good template for later conversion work!  

 

The 'Must Have' kit I couldn't find available at all in the UK. Can I ask where you bought it, Silver Fox'? (By all means PM is you prefer.)

 

Edit : I just realised why the Special Hobby boxing looked so familiar. I built the 1/72 version a couple of years ago. Presumably the 1/48th kit is an upscaling, so should be similar in challenge level. My memory is that the vortex generators drove me nuts - the hardest part! 

Edited September 2, 2020 by John B (Sc)

[Silver Fox]

I got my Must Have kits from Hannants and the model shop at South Yorkshire Air Museum. Neither have them in stock. 

 

It seems that Revell of Germany  tooled all three fuselages then realised that the wings altered on the K in German service which was another massive investment in tooling. They issued the two different D fuselages but never issue the K, except for a few that crept out and were offered on E-Bay. If you examine the Must Have K fuselage and the Revell D  they are so similar in thickness and finesse to be a third party part.

 

Enjoy the SH K😁. I see you are up to speed with its features. Dutch decal do markings for most K in Royal Netherlands Air Force service, if you fancy something different.

 

Let's hope for a better K and an L from some kind manufacturer.

[Silver Fox]

Thank you for the diagram, I have amended my post to give you credit, I'm not sure where I got it from but it has been very helpful.

[Selwyn]

On 03/09/2020 at 01:56, Sabrejet said:

Just to illustrate two short-span Luftwaffe F-86Ks; one on delivery, the other in service (photo credits Peter Sickinger & Jack Friell):

 

 

 

 

 

The bottom image is a long span.  look at the distance between the end of the slats and the wingtips on both.

 

Selwyn

[John B (Sc)]

Thanks all - some very useful information. Thanks 'Silver Fox', given that info I shall probably go down the SH 1/48th rabbit hole! 

 

Interesting that it sounds as though the Must Have fuselage may derive from Revell. Quite a bit of swap and interplay happens behind the scenes

 ( I recall looking carefully at the Revell 1/32 Hunter when it first appeared & comparing it with the Echelon vacform The similarities in breakdown were interesting.) 

 

What a shame Revell didn't go ahead with the F-86K.

 

'sabrejet' : thanks for the short wing information. The NMF Sabres were especially bonny, so I shall plan to do one that way. 

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by John B (Sc)

[Giorgio N]

The method of comparing the position of the leading edge with the gun panel vents is the same I use, unfortunately it is not always very easy to see it well if the picture is taken at odd angles, even if I have spent some time trying to "teach myself" how to spot such difference. The presence of the tip extensions is a easier to see if the wing is visible enough from the top, although sometimes in old pictures this too gets tricky.

 

In any case, I'm glad to stand corrected on the Luftwaffe short span wings ! Adds a new potential subject to the list !

Being a 1/72 modeller unfortunately I'm however stuck with a kit that offers a narrow-chord long span wing, that of course is something that never existed... Special Hobby botched this detail in both their F-86K and L kits. The easiest solution is to shorten the wing and make an early service aircraft.. or use the short wing included in the F-86L kit for the same subjects. Or rob a proper F-40 wing from their F-86H and try to fit it on the K.

[Silver Fox]

Every day is a school day, thanks for posting all this Sabre Jet, I now have another potential finish for my kit.

[Selwyn]

1 hour ago, Sabrejet said:

@Giorgio N; no worries at all - just glad to help. I had hoped that @Selwyn might amend his post to avoid confusion. Anyway keep this all at hand because it will only be a couple of weeks before someone asks again!

 

😁

I havent amended the post because I do not agree with your conclusion.

Selwyn

[72modeler]

7 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

Or rob a proper F-40 wing from their F-86H

Or snag the wings from one of the Fujimi Sabres that came with the F-40 wing.

Mike

[Giorgio N]

Since we've been discussing 1/48 kits, it may be worth mentioning that the Special Hobby F-86K is currently for sale on SH own website for a very good price. The offer will only last one week though, so anyone interested should get it quick. I'm even considering getting one myself even if it's not my usual scale...

The variant on sale is the one with the later F40 wing

[Julien]

If anyone wants some pictures I just uploaded some more;

 

 

[RobertF]

On 9/2/2020 at 4:08 PM, John B (Sc) said:

The fuselage change is unexpected, given the main change was ( I thought) to the armament.

 

John, AFAIK the F-86D was an all-missile armed aircraft with a brand new fire control radar system.  The F-86K was designed as an export version as the US were reluctant to share this new radar technology with their allies for security reasons. So the missiles were replaced by the conventional gun armament in the forward fuselage. This meant a shift in the aircraft's CG which had to be corrected by the new fuselage sections just aft of the wings as shown in the diagrams.

 

Good luck with your build and do show us how you are getting on with that. I have both the MHM and the SH kits in my stash but don't feel comfortable enough with my skills in NM finishes yet, so will be happy to learn from your experience.

 

Robert

 

[72modeler]

@Selwyn, @Sabrejet

 

I don't have a dog in this fight, but both of the posted photos- the USAF and WGAF K have the 'short' span, slatted wing; the angle at which the photos were taken gives the impression that there is greater distance between the outboard edge of the slat and the wingtip. In the second photo, the wingtip is seen from head on, so you are seeing the entire length of the tip- notice that he position of the nav light is the same distance from the LE in both photos.  Back to neutral corners, gentlemen! 

Mike

 

@Julien

BTW- loved the posted photos! The D/K sure looks naked without the drop tanks!

[Sabrejet]

16 hours ago, 72modeler said:

@Selwyn, @Sabrejet

 

I don't have a dog in this fight, but both of the posted photos- the USAF and WGAF K have the 'short' span, slatted wing; the angle at which the photos were taken gives the impression that there is greater distance between the outboard edge of the slat and the wingtip. In the second photo, the wingtip is seen from head on, so you are seeing the entire length of the tip- notice that he position of the nav light is the same distance from the LE in both photos.  Back to neutral corners, gentlemen! 

Mike

 

@Julien

BTW- loved the posted photos! The D/K sure looks naked without the drop tanks!

Well you tried. I've deleted my posts above and may post a separate thread on F-86Ks to hopefully avoid a repeat.

[Silver Fox]

If you go down the Special Hobby route you may well be lucky, I spoke to a fellow club member who showed me his SH 86K which exhibited none of the fuselage issues I had. So I think I was unlucky as I don't remember the same issue on my two previous builds. Sadly he did not have the resin undercarriage bay insets SH  normally provide to replace the incorrect kit plastic parts.

 

 

[John B (Sc)]

On 9/8/2020 at 7:58 AM, RobertF said:

John, AFAIK the F-86D was an all-missile armed aircraft with a brand new fire control radar system.  The F-86K was designed as an export version as the US were reluctant to share this new radar technology with their allies for security reasons. So the missiles were replaced by the conventional gun armament in the forward fuselage. This meant a shift in the aircraft's CG which had to be corrected by the new fuselage sections just aft of the wings as shown in the diagrams.

 

Good luck with your build and do show us how you are getting on with that. I have both the MHM and the SH kits in my stash but don't feel comfortable enough with my skills in NM finishes yet, so will be happy to learn from your experience.

 

Robert

 

 

 

Thanks Robert.  Looking at some more information, I slowly realised that my assumptions on CG effects were overly simplistic !  I am still  tinkering with NM effects; sometimes it works well, other times not so much. I haven't yet got a Lightning looking really as I remember them, with many differing metallic tints, shades & ripple marks.  I did a coupe of dayfighter Sabres which I thought went better - but maybe that is because I don't recall the real thing so well !  It only has to satisfy me; if I get a result which doesn't look too much like plastic, fine. 

 

'Sabrejet' & '72 modeller' - thanks for most useful information. I'm sorry Sabrejet felt he should delete his posts. I think I copied some elements before that happened. I look forward to a separate thread on F-86Ks some time. These early jets in particular fascinate me; the risks taken by both pilots and designers - pushing the envelope in handling, operation and engineering with little fallback of solid knowledge and experience, Some hard won insights.   Risk tolerance was different then...

[Julien]

On 09/09/2020 at 09:39, Sabrejet said:

Well you tried. I've deleted my posts above and may post a separate thread on F-86Ks to hopefully avoid a repeat.

I would say please do a new thread on the K as I found your posts informative.

 

As a moderator I find it disappointing that a member felt the need to delete his posts as an agreement could not be found on posting information. 

 

Julien

[RobertF]

19 hours ago, Julien said:

I would say please do a new thread on the K as I found your posts informative.

I second that