New Zealand P-40K-M colors and markings revisited

[Jim Kiker]

Hi all,

 

As my subject implies, I have a Hasegawa 1/48 scale P-40 Kittyhawk Mk III kit, to be built as a K-15 #23-NZ3059, July 1943.  Color-wise, a couple of years ago experts reported that the upper surfaces camouflage was NZ Blue Sea (instead of a flavor of Dark Earth), NZ Pacific Green (not RAF Dark Green, nor Foliage Green) for overseas P-40's, and duck egg blue (aka the Dupont 071 bluish-grayish-slighty greenish color).  I have just been reviewing all the threads here at BM and I am still confused.  NZ Blue Sea is described as a medium blue-gray, with RAF PRU Blue noted a one alternative and US Navy Blue Gray noted as equivalent; however, color call-outs from the American Federal Standard paint reference indicate a blue in the very dark range of  FS 35056 fading to 35109.  So who has the correct combination of FS equivalent and paint chip which can be mixed?

 

As for the green, some references have been made to shades like RAF Light Slate Grey.  At least one of the boffins has recommended that this green was simply Olive Drab because the delivery scheme of OD and NG, so that the green portion of the repaint was just left in place with the NZ Blue Sea sections added. Greeny-green, olive green, US Olive Drab gray green with FS equivalent, or something else?  Again, there seems to be variances between paint samples/colors and nomenclature.

 

Markings- Roundel Blues.  Before colors, I have one sheet of NZ roundels sized to 36" for the wing markings; some decal sheets seem to be scaling out closer to 48"; so what is the correct diameter?  A couple of modelers have noted that the Ventura decals for the Lockheed PV-1's can be used for the overseas P-40's.  And am I right to think that the fuselage roundels should be 36", including the thin yellow surround?  Back to markings colors, light blue and medium blues have been long since ruled out.  Again in a couple of cases very dark blues have been called out by FS equivalents while the photos from mid-1943 seem to show a mid-darkish blue.  So far, most existing decals appear to be from too light to 'far too light.  Of course we cannot really tell which colors are which based solely on old B&W pictures, but I see roundels in the mid-tone range in the pictures I have and it's hard to dismiss what I'm seeing without good evidence to the contrary.

 

While I do not expect a unified chorus of definitive answers, I am interested in what those of you have wider experience than I have to say.  Thanks in advance for any light you can shed.  If I cannot get to fairly correct colors to paint/decal with, I'll just set this kit aside.

 

Thanks and cheers, Jim

[Graham Boak]

Colourcoats have recently produced a set of RNZAF colours to the most recent information, so I think it best to refer you to the Sovereign Hobbies page where you can find the correct names and what they look like on your monitor.

[72modeler]

@LDSModeller is the go-to guy for WW2 RNZAF colors and markings; did none of his posts on the P-40K subject here on BM give you the answers you needed? USN intermediate blue, FS35164 might be closer to the NZ sea blue as used on their Kittyhawks. I have read in some sources that when freshly painted, it ranged from FS35052 to FS35109, and it faded to from FS35163 to FS35177. Alan would be the one to supply the correct information, as I am NO Kiwi authority and I have always trusted his recommendations.

Mike

 

See if this linked article helps,

http://rnzaf.hobbyvista.com/rnzaf_paints.html

Edited August 30, 2020 by 72modeler
added text and link

[LDSModeller]

5 hours ago, Jim Kiker said:

As my subject implies, I have a Hasegawa 1/48 scale P-40 Kittyhawk Mk III kit, to be built as a K-15 #23-NZ3059, July 1943.  Color-wise, a couple of years ago experts reported that the upper surfaces camouflage was NZ Blue Sea (instead of a flavor of Dark Earth), NZ Pacific Green (not RAF Dark Green, nor Foliage Green) for overseas P-40's, and duck egg blue (aka the Dupont 071 bluish-grayish-slighty greenish color).  I have just been reviewing all the threads here at BM and I am still confused.  NZ Blue Sea is described as a medium blue-gray

Good Morning Jim,

 

The RNZAF always used the US Nomenclature for aircraft designation, so NZ3059

is a P40K-15, not a P40 Mk III.

 

Just bear in mind that sometimes new information does come about , which can make older information out of date

 

The P40K is a favorite of mine, and I have researched  the colours as much as possible especially

given FS colours are only approximations for RNZAF paint colours WWII

 

It's certainly my opinion that the Early delivery of P40K-15s were delivered in standard US Olive Drab/Neutral Grey.

These aircraft were ordered to be repainted in the RNZAF Pacific Scheme.

Now there will be SAGE's (Self Appointed Guru Experts)who will tell you all manner of stuff, based on Chinese whispers

from some book, that some body's uncle Vince had overheard some body else authoritatively state "This or That", and

many Chinese Whispers later its Gospel truth.

Charles Darby's (who I have actually met) Book "RNZAF The First Decade", was for Decades the go to Book for all

things WWII RNZAF. We now know that some of his information was mistaken/spurious, yet has been quoted

Ad nauseam - Even I believed it too, until I started asking questions - Don't get me wrong Charles's book still has

some great nuggets, and I still refer to it often.

 

The RNZAF Pacific Scheme

This seems to have gone through a few incarnations:

The first is NZ3036 (Middle P40E-1) in link below, circa late 1942, early 1943, where the US DuPont colours of

RAF Dark Earth and RAF Dark Green have been over painted in NZ Dark Green and NZ Sea Blue Grey,

lower is US Version of RAF Duck Egg Blue aka Sky - I have added as a link show you get a larger resolution

NZ3036 in RNZAF Pacific Scheme

NZ Pacific Green/Dark Green, best match is Humbrol 3 Brunswick Green

 

Second - RNZAF Lockheed Hudson's

I believe these simply had the US Version of RAF Dark Earth painted over with NZ Sea Blue,

while the rest of the airframe remained in US version of RAF Dark Green, and Lower Colour,

US Version of Duck Egg Blue aka Sky

RNZAF Official -used with RNZAF Museum Permissions

 

Getting back to your P 40K-15 NZ3059 - the following is based on a more recent photo that surfaced

over the last couple of years. This P40K-15 is believed to be NZ3056, so same batch as NZ3059.

 

RNZAF P40K NZ3056

 

Note the Starboard lower wing, the lower paint had peeled off in sheets revealing paint underneath

which I believe is US Neutral Grey.

The colour NZ Sea Grey Blue is a BALM Colour (British Australian Lead Manufacturers) - We certainly know

BALM paints were notorious for fading or peeling, this photo of NZ3056 is a case in point.

When I painted my P40K, I based my NZ Sea Blue Grey on this photo from the RNZAF Museum (see link below),

and painted the scheme in an RAF "B" Type Scheme as seen in Official Photos

 

 

NZ Sea Blue Grey

 

The Olive Drab based on a faded sample swatch off an actual RNZAF P40

 

The lower colour is a bit more of a conundrum, as I have as yet to find a change in usage in the given time period between 1943/44

as to whether the lower colour is NZ Duck Egg Blue as found on this P40E-1 at MOTAT

 

OR

NZ Sky Grey, which is IMHO a New Zealand version of US DuPont 71-021 Sky Type S - Grey.

NZ Sky Grey was well used circa mid 1944 - to wars end as a repaint on RNZAF Aircraft lower surfaces.

Again SAGE's on the net will tell you it's an actual grey or a Green Grey (as Does Darby in First Decade)

Earlier this year I had the privilege of seeing actual WWII RNZAF colours on a RNZAF 40N that

had been in storage for some 50-60 years

The NZ Sky Grey interestingly had peeled off on the lower wing as in the above photo of NZ3056.

The actual colour ( a substantial amount still remained) was a Blue Greenish colour with a slight grey

tone to it. - Interestingly enough, Pete Mossong's site mentions this colour as Blue Green color

I have attempted to replicate this colour for an upcoming build of an RNZAF P40K (NZ3056 funnily enough)

This is the colour

 

As to your query on the Roundel sizes, again lots of people will tell you lots of things

Actual

Wing Roundel 48 inch - Dimensions are as follows:  Blue outer 48"/White 16"/Blue inner 12"

Fuselage Roundel 36 Inch

 

As far as the WWII Roundel colour, I'm sure the know it all's will tell you a plethora of rubbish about the

"Actual colours" - Below is a link from  some information the RNZAF Museum sent me - note the Blue Colour

WWII RNZAF Pacific Roundel Colours RNZAF Museum

 

Interestingly the P40N I mentioned above, still had the Roundels on the wings - Same/similar color

to the colours from Air Force Museum, so a Rich Dark Blue

Ventura do do a Range of 1/48 Decals in correct colour

 

Hope that helps you

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2020 by LDSModeller

[Jim Kiker]

Gentlemen,

 

I want to thank you all for your help and for straightening me out on colors and markings for this scheme.  I have re-done my paints for this build and I have a Ventura decal sheet on the way so I feel a lot better about how the model will turn out!

 

Much obliged, Jim

[Pete M.]

Hi Jim. I agree 100% with Alans reply regarding the P-40K colours and roundel sizes and colours. Unfortunately my site has been 'locked' after a change of servers by the hosts several years ago, and Brett Green has so far had no luck in getting it sorted for me.

I have many updates (and corrections) and further pages to add but have not been able to do so.

 

A sure sign of a repaint is the 'wavy' demarkation between the upper and lower camo (which I call the 'Hobsonville' style where they were assembled and repainted) which can also be seen on Hudsons and Oxfords that were repainted around this period. As for the lower colour, the jury is still out on that but I do suspect it was the NZ Sky Grey colour as per the paint chip on my site taken from under the wing of NZ3220 'Gloria Lyons'. It is far too light in tone to be Neutral Gray! Also a comment that the pattern of the camo is in a 'B' scheme which did not appear to come from the Curtiss factory. A 'B' scheme also appears on a number of obviously repainted Hudson photos recently posted on the Air Force Museum of New Zealand site!

 

Cheers,

Pete M.