F Class destroyer options and camouflage colours

[Qel]

Looking to have a go at a naval subject for a change from aircraft, and I'd like to try some water base techniques I've seen elsewhere. As a subject I'm looking at trying to make a model of HMS Firedrake (H79) as my great uncle was amongst those lost when she was torpedoed by a U-Boat in December 1942 whilst escorting an Atlantic convoy so I thought it would be a good way to research that too. With that said, I only have very limited knowledge of anything naval so essentially I think I'll be happy if I can make something representative of how she would likely have appeared in December 42 and accepting that 100% accuracy probably isn't possible (or achievable for me anyway).

 

In terms of kits I've seen an AJM kit for HMS Fame available but from what I can gather the E & F Classes were virtually the same so I was thinking of using Tamiya's 1/700 E Class kit as a more cost effective starting point and perhaps try using the White Ensign photoetch set for E & F class to enhance it a bit. At such a small scale I don't know if it's worthwhile doing anything else in terms of aftermarket stuff (e.g. metal masts if I'm going to attempt rigging? any rigging diagrams?) but any advice on this approach or other suggestions would be welcome.

 

I'm mainly looking for advice on camouflage schemes and colours for the late 1942 period, if such specific information exists. There seem to be very few photographs of her available, the two below dating from 1941:

 

The only photograph from 1942 I've been able to find is the following from the IWM collection which identifies her as the destroyer in the foreground:

 

NEW C IN C EASTERN FLEET LEAVES TO TAKE UP HIS NEW APPOINTMENT. 14 FEBRUARY 1942, GREENOCK. ADMIRAL SIR JAMES SOMMERVILLE, KCB, KBE, DSO, LEAVING TO TAKE ON HIS NEW APPOINTMENT AS C IN C EASTERN FLEET.. © IWM (A 8356) IWM Non Commercial License

 

To me the IWM photo and the Boston Navy Yard photo appear similar with a lighter (overall) scheme than the first photograph but I'm at a bit of a loss for what the colours would likely have been. I checked various books on destroyers and the British and Commonwealth Warship Camouflage series has drawings for E & F Class (though not Firedrake specifically) for 41/42 with a mixture of schemes using a white base and what it calls WA Green or WA Blue. A third scheme it describes as an 'Admiralty dark camouflage introduced in early 1942' with 'MS2 overall with areas of black and white' but I think this would have looked much darker in the photographs above.

 

I don't know when I'd plan to start on this, just researching/looking for advice at this stage so any help from members with greater knowledge in this area would be appreciated. Thanks.

Edited August 27, 2020 by Qel

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

20 minutes ago, Qel said:

I checked various books on destroyers and the British and Commonwealth Warship Camouflage series has drawings for E & F Class (though not Firedrake specifically) for 41/42 with a mixture of schemes using a white base and what it calls WA Green or WA Blue. A third scheme it describes as an 'Admiralty dark camouflage introduced in early 1942' with 'MS2 overall with areas of black and white' but I think this would have looking much darker in the photographs above.

 

I don't know when I'd plan to start on this, just researching/looking for advice at this stage so any help from members with greater knowledge in this area would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

In all seriousness, the first place to start is to set that book aside. I don't want to list out on a public forum all the reasons why, but suffice to say there are so many hard clashes in his books with reality that it's impossible to have anything but suspicion about where the rest came from.

 

I suspect we are seeing either 507A or Black pattern on an overall 507C, but @dickrd or @Our Ned may have views on this.

 

 

[dickrd]

Firedrake was wearing a disruptive scheme of at least four colours when damaged by a bomb in the Med in  July 1941 (your first photo). Although it is not that obvious given the angle of your second photo, the design of the pattern of the paint scheme was altered during her repairs at Boston and I suspect the number of paints was reduced. Your third photo, February 1942 shows this revised scheme.

 

Your interest is later in 1942. In March 1942 she was damaged again, repaired in April and started work again in May:  http://www.naval-history.net/xGM-Chrono-10DD-23F-HMS_Firedrake.htm

 

This photo (courtesy of the wonderful Rick E Davis) shows that the opportunity had then been taken to repaint her into a Western Approaches type camouflage scheme (I can assure you that this photo shows Firedrake):

 

It is this scheme that I suspect she wore for the rest of 1942 until sunk. It looks like a fairly textbook application of the E&F Class design from CAFO 679 of 1942 although we could debate whether an unofficial very light grey was used in place of white: 

 

You can get the WA paint colours in the Colourcoats paint range available from the wonderful Sovereign Hobbies. 

Edited August 28, 2020 by dickrd

[Bugle07]

Don't know if you've found this site yet?

 

http://www.hmsfiredrake.co.uk/firedrake25.htm

 

HMS Firedrake association page, dozens of personal accounts from crew, not many pictures of the ship herself, but a fascinating read.

 

If you look on the IWM site under ,

 

DESTROYER MANOEUVRES AT SCAPA FLOW, IN PREPARATION FOR THE SECOND FRONT. 25 JUNE 1942. PICTURES TAKEN FROM HMS FAULKNOR

 

you may find some images from Faulknor of Firedrake, not sure, been a while since I looked, and my focus was on Faulknor as my Grandad served on her.

 

On the models front, the E & F class from Tamiya is a nice little kit, and the WE photoetch sets her up nicely. There is a 5 star PE set which looks incredible but very fiddly. 

 

The AJM kit would be great, don't be afraid of resin kits, and should have everything you need for a really detailed model. It would come down to cost really, Tamiya plus WE set or the AJM kit? The detail on the AJM kit will be much better than the Tamiya, and finer but almost double the price.

 

On the Tamiya kit, I'd recommend brass for the masts as it gives you a more secure platform for rigging. The kit parts are OK, if you're just going to do a couple of lines as a representation, but more that a couple and I found myself fighting to keep the masts in one piece, not something I wanted at that scale...

 

Best of luck whichever way you look at going.

 

Geoff 

[Qel]

Thank you all for the input, that's extremely helpful. I'll likely go with the Tamiya kit then as the cost is a bit more palatable if I mess it up somehow compared to the AJM kit. 

 

One more question, as the H79 markings appear to be absent in the 1942 photo supplied by @dickrd were they just removed in general at this time/with this scheme or would they likely have been repainted later? I suppose in terms of identifying features for the model I could just come up with a name badge for the base of some kind if any other identifiable markings aren't present.

Edited August 28, 2020 by Qel

[Our Ned]

I don't think the darker shade is black - it looks lighter than the colour of the stern pennant number in the second picture.

[dickrd]

4 hours ago, Qel said:

One more question, as the H79 markings appear to be absent in the 1942 photo supplied by @dickrd were they just removed in general at this time/with this scheme or would they likely have been repainted later? I suppose in terms of identifying features for the model I could just come up with a name badge for the base of some kind if any other identifiable markings aren't present.

As you can see from the wide black band at the top of the forward funnel, Firedrake was the senior officer's ship of the 7th EG. Leaders of proper destroyer flotillas did not paint up their pendant numbers, but the senior officers ships of escort groups normally did (as they were not proper destroyer flotilla leaders). I suspect that the CO of Firedrake in these early weeks of her new role may have been affecting the style of a real destroyer leader by not having his pendant numbers painted up.  I suspect he will have got a flea in his ear from Capt (D) at Londonderry next time he called there and told to paint them up. I do have a poor quality version of a photo of the aft of Firedrake later in 1942 which suggests a pendant number on the stern at that time. I am hoping that a certain someone I know will have a better quality version of this photo and will be able to confirm. I will post again when/if I hear from him.

 

 

[Bugle07]

 

@dickrd Is the Y turret missing from that picture or is it my imagination? 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

8 minutes ago, Bugle07 said:

 

@dickrd Is the Y turret missing from that picture or is it my imagination? 

 

They may have made the error of judgement to tie up in Liverpool overnight, and woke up the next morning to find Y turret gone?

[dickrd]

11 minutes ago, Bugle07 said:

 

@dickrd Is the Y turret missing from that picture or is it my imagination? 

It was a common modification to remove Y gun from former fleet destroyers transferred to the anti submarine escort role where the priority was a heavier depth charge load 

Edited August 28, 2020 by dickrd

[Qel]

On 8/28/2020 at 3:23 PM, dickrd said:

It was a common modification to remove Y gun from former fleet destroyers transferred to the anti submarine escort role where the priority was a heavier depth charge load 

Yes I'd read that this happened to Firedrake so will have to reflect the change and her rear torpedo mount was also replaced by additional AA I believe. At 1/700 I suppose it isn't going to leave a massive amount of space to fill will just have to work out how best to fill it without it looking out of place.

 

Edit: Thinking about it some more, for the deck areas in general would I be looking at just dark grey or some combination or that with a brown or green I've seen on other kits?

Edited August 29, 2020 by Qel

[Pete_VN52]

I joined the forum just to follow this thread - I recently discovered that my Great Uncle, Stanley Sharpe, went down with HMS Firedrake, and I'm also planning on building a kit as her. I'd be very interested to see your progress.

 

-Pete

[ArnoldAmbrose]

On 8/29/2020 at 3:15 PM, Qel said:

Yes I'd read that this happened to Firedrake so will have to reflect the change and her rear torpedo mount was also replaced by additional AA I believe.

Gidday, I believe the same was done to HMS Hotspur. I hope so, as I built a model of her as such. 🙂 Regards, Jeff.

[Qel]

On 11/24/2020 at 9:12 AM, Pete_VN52 said:

I joined the forum just to follow this thread - I recently discovered that my Great Uncle, Stanley Sharpe, went down with HMS Firedrake, and I'm also planning on building a kit as her. I'd be very interested to see your progress.

 

-Pete

 

Ashamed to say I've not progressed beyond the research stage at this point due to various other distractions.

 

I have the Tamiya 1/700 E Class kit and the White Ensign E&F class photo etch set to go with it. My current thinking is to try and kitbash this with elements taken from another kit of a close subject such as the IBG 1/700 HMS Harvester kit reviewed on BM here. This kit is for a 1943 configuration H-Class and appears to contain many of the same surface level configuration changes that were made to Firedrake during the war such as the shortened aft funnel, additional anti-aircraft weaponry, added depth charge capacity and more.

 

This may very well be an utterly flawed plan but for someone who doesn't normally build ship models it seemed like a way for me to attempt building something 'good enough' if not completely accurate in a relatively simple way. 

 

On 11/24/2020 at 9:31 AM, ArnoldAmbrose said:

Gidday, I believe the same was done to HMS Hotspur. I hope so, as I built a model of her as such. 🙂 Regards, Jeff.

 

Was it this kit by any chance? Scalemates link. Have to admit the tiny scale is quite daunting, especially when thinking about things like rigging.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Qel

[ArnoldAmbrose]

Gidday Qel, actually no. Mine came from an Airfix 1/600 scale "Naval Destroyers of WWII" set. It included HMShips Hotspur, Campbeltown and Cossack, plus the German 'Narvik' class Z28. I haven't seen any in the stores here for quite a while. And I too have a bit of a problem with 1/700 scale. I much prefer Airfix's 1/600. HTH. Regards, Jeff.