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Accuracy of AMMO by Mig Jiménez RAF WWII Colours


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On 02/04/2021 at 19:21, alt-92 said:

I'm still waiting for the first pink and blue Blenheim to show up

 

Oh... (off to delete those pics I was just about to post in rfi.... :) )

 

Interesting thread, enjoyed your video @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies, very instructive. And one thing it instructed me personally was how untrustworthy my 'colour memory' must be. Spent 3 years flying with the University of Wales Air Squadron at St Athan when some of that station's work was maintaining and repainting dark green/dark sea grey Royal Air Force aeroplanes, so spent many a happy hour around those when flying was cancelled due to weather! And my 'memory' told me the green they were painted was very similar to the final mix you made after adding the chrome green and ultramarine pigments! (I realise I'm talking late 70's RAF dark green not WW2, but I understood 'accepted wisdom' now is they were very similar if not exactly the same. Or is that still another argument?!) So I'll know better than trust my memory in the future (as if I didn't know that already!)

 

Happy muddling everyone

 

Keith

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On 10/04/2021 at 08:50, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

I had an old Humbrol 30...

 

a441c2e0-0c42-47ca-b138-98887e452fbc.png

 

These were taken using my hand-held Nix Pro Color Sensor using D65/10deg standards. It's not as accurate as the factory desk mounted and annually calibrated spectrophotometer, but a million times more accurate than male humans guesstimating!

 

RGB values quoted purely so you can punch them into your favourite Paint-type software and render the colour yourself in sRGB255. Please instead look at the L*a*b* coordinates. L is brightness from 0=theoretical black hole to 100=you're off to heaven white - neither is real in reality. The "a" axis is +red -green. The "b" axis is +yellow -blue. As can be seen, RAF Dark Green for real is a dark yellow (as per my video) with a greenish lean. Humbrol 30 is the other way round - it's a dark green with a yellowish lean which is why people describe is as "too bluish" by comparison. As the CIELAB colourspace system was designed to describe colour the way humans perceive it, people describe Humbrol 30 as being "too bluish" because it has far too weak a positive-b value to look like the real RAF Dark Green which, as per my previous posts and hopefully demonstrated by aforementioned video, is basically just a dark yellow.

 

L*a*b

These are my kind of posts: measurements of RAF museum Dark Green!
If I put these numbers into e-paint.co.uk website (which has a L*a*b database) the closest FS colour is 34094 (modern 3tone NATO green) which is slightly lighter.
This would suggest "bronze" NATO green (RAL6031) is close. But that means far less olive drab-y than most describe WW2 Dark Green.

 

The same website gives RGB of 86/86/75 as BS 241 Dark Green (light, greyish), 72/72/55 as BS 641 Dark Green.(dark more olive)

Very suspicious the 241 comes very very close (<1%) to BS 285 IRR Nato green in the same database, with which late Harriers were painted....
I suspect some wrong assumptions...

 

Munsell

An earlier post by Nick Millman here quoted Munsell measurements for MAP RAF dark green: 10 Y 2.9/1.5
If you put these numbers here: https://pteromys.melonisland.net/munsell/ you will get RGB of 71/70/55, which is very close indeed to the e-paint BS 641 Dark green.

This makes me believe the later is more correct, given the IRR Nato green match earlier...
This how I ended up with a RAL mix of 2 x 6014 + 1 x 6003.


Second thought is the fact SCC15 comes very close but is lighter. My experiments on mixing RAL colour gave me RAL 6014 + RAL 6031 as a match for SCC15.

Edited by Steben
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1 hour ago, Steben said:

 

Very suspicious the 241 comes very very close (<1%) to BS 285 IRR Nato green in the same database, with which late Harriers were painted....
I suspect some wrong assumptions...

 

You have noticed the same curiosity I did previously with respect to BS241 and 285. My 1996 copy of BS381C lists the CIELAB values for them as L36.26 a-1.64 b6.51 and L36.29 a-1.20 b7.24 for them respectively. That's less than any commercial business would expect as batch tolerances. It's unclear why BS285 was ever introduced as it has no reason to exist given it's practically indistinguishable from BS241 which already existed!

 

6675518b-ecc3-4926-a457-f61e0621c7b7.png

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29 minutes ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

 

You have noticed the same curiosity I did previously with respect to BS241 and 285. My 1996 copy of BS381C lists the CIELAB values for them as L36.26 a-1.64 b6.51 and L36.29 a-1.20 b7.24 for them respectively. That's less than any commercial business would expect as batch tolerances. It's unclear why BS285 was ever introduced as it has no reason to exist given it's practically indistinguishable from BS241 which already existed!

 

6675518b-ecc3-4926-a457-f61e0621c7b7.png

Yes, indeed.
On the other hand, with testimonials of the people in the field at hand which seem to mix up anything, it is less a surprise.

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4 hours ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

You have noticed the same curiosity I did previously with respect to BS241 and 285. My 1996 copy of BS381C lists the CIELAB values for them as L36.26 a-1.64 b6.51 and L36.29 a-1.20 b7.24 for them respectively. That's less than any commercial business would expect as batch tolerances. It's unclear why BS285 was ever introduced as it has no reason to exist given it's practically indistinguishable from BS241 which already existed!

Although it doesn't explain why BS285 and BS241 are so close, the following document written by Clive Elliott contains a lot of very interesting historical information on British Army dark greens including BS285 which was created for the British version of NATO Green with Infra Red Reflecting (IRR) properties. Its well worth the read.

http://www.warwheels.net/images/BritishArmyGreenPaintsElliott1.pdf

 

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6 hours ago, Steben said:

 

L*a*b

These are my kind of posts: measurements of RAF museum Dark Green!
If I put these numbers into e-paint.co.uk website (which has a L*a*b database) the closest FS colour is 34094 (modern 3tone NATO green) which is slightly lighter.
This would suggest "bronze" NATO green (RAL6031) is close. But that means far less olive drab-y than most describe WW2 Dark Green.

+++

 

When you see "old" Bundeswehr vehicles in RAL 6031 (be it single color or in combination with Tar Black (9021) and Leather Brown (8027)) they all show "patina" (rather bleaching and/or chalking and patches, some even in 6014) that in my perception do not match any reproduction of RAF Dark Green I came across (I wasn't there when the BOB took place). But then WW II lasted only a few years and those old Bundeswehr vehicles had much more time to collect some weathering (and they used a different binder as far as I know).

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18 hours ago, Nobby Clarke said:

Although it doesn't explain why BS285 and BS241 are so close, the following document written by Clive Elliott contains a lot of very interesting historical information on British Army dark greens including BS285 which was created for the British version of NATO Green with Infra Red Reflecting (IRR) properties. Its well worth the read.

http://www.warwheels.net/images/BritishArmyGreenPaintsElliott1.pdf

 

Perhaps BS285 was also meant to be a direct replacement for BS241 in particular cases that needed IR suppression such as fighting vehicles, while things like water bowsers and GP vehicles do not and hence use the non-IRR color. Generally, if special capabilities aren't thought to be needed, they aren't provided. Even in wartime, military budgets aren't unlimited.

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On 4/9/2021 at 11:27 AM, elger said:

Like I mentioned previously in this thread, there was a guy who tried to paint his F-104 with actual paint of F-104s and the model looked all wrong.

I onbce heard a tale of someone who had spent a couple of years to scatchbuild a large scale F-104G model and persuaded a friend who worked in a Dutch AF paint barn to use actual Starfighter paint on his model.... only to have the AF paint totally melt his model.  

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

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On 4/12/2021 at 2:25 PM, Rolls-Royce said:

Perhaps BS285 was also meant to be a direct replacement for BS241 in particular cases that needed IR suppression such as fighting vehicles, while things like water bowsers and GP vehicles do not and hence use the non-IRR color. Generally, if special capabilities aren't thought to be needed, they aren't provided. Even in wartime, military budgets aren't unlimited.

I don't think 241/641 was specified for Army or RAF vehicles? 

 

I could be wrong.

 

John

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I might be at cross purposes here but the BS381C only concerns the colour and appearance. It doesn't hold any meaning over any other properties of a paint or any other substance - it's literally just the colour of something whether that's paper, ink, fabric dye or anything else which can be manufactured a certain colour.

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On 4/12/2021 at 7:43 AM, Hook said:

I onbce heard a tale of someone who had spent a couple of years to scatchbuild a large scale F-104G model and persuaded a friend who worked in a Dutch AF paint barn to use actual Starfighter paint on his model.... only to have the AF paint totally melt his model.  

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

Not surprised. Full scale aircraft paints are tough stuff - they have to be, given the wide range of environments and conditions the aircraft operate in - and the thinners and carriers involved are pretty gnarly!

Edited by Rolls-Royce
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