Jump to content

Accuracy of AMMO by Mig Jiménez RAF WWII Colours


Nobby Clarke
 Share

Recommended Posts

3 hours ago, Tour de Airfix said:

It’s not as though Ammo are a small player in this modelling lark 

I am always torn with Mig. As above I was very unimpressed with their RAF set but the Luftwaffe one was okay. I have just bought their early Italian airforce set which is new. Early impression is that doesn't contain all of the colours I would expect. I haven't had a chance to colour match yet. Generally their paints seem a little more rugged than Vallejo but separate more quickly. Not that this is a great problem.

 

A couple of years ago I bought a pack of Mig's brushes. I usually use Rosemary's brushes which are excellent but I wanted some cheaper ones to do oil filters etc. The Mig brushes were useless. Even just using acrylic they started loosing hairs almost immediately. They went to the bin quickly.

 

As an aside I have taken to buying the occasional batch of enamels from Colourcoats. They seem to be one of the best on the market for colour matching. Problem is that enamel spraying isn't usually possible for me - especially in the winter. I end up using them to colour match my acrylics.

 

That got me thinking - I wish Colourcoats would produce a set of swatches. I'm sure they would sell a few. I know I would love to see someone do something like that. I suspect I'm not the only one.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, Pete F said:

That got me thinking - I wish Colourcoats would produce a set of swatches. I'm sure they would sell a few. I know I would love to see someone do something like that. I suspect I'm not the only one.

 

ask @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies, funily enough I'd thought the same thing,  I suspect it would be a PITA for them, but perhaps when they are doing tin lids they  could do some swatches.    I have chips for a few standards now, but they do some tat I don't have much info for.

 

19 minutes ago, Pete F said:

They seem to be one of the best on the market for colour matching.

Yes, because they bother, and ask researchers, and then use the information they are given , and in the case of the RN colours, made up samples to the orginal formula.     They don't do arylic as they just don't like the nature of the paint BTW.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Pete F said:

I wish Colourcoats would produce a set of swatches.

They do - every tin of paint has a lid shaped swatch on it :wicked: 

Jamie's in business to sell the paints he's put a lot of research into, I very much doubt it would be in his interest to sell sets of colour swatches at a price people would be willing to pay so that they could then mix and match from someone else's paint range.

  • Like 2
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure that we need another set of swatches, although I wouldn't say "no" if @Jamie @SovereignHobbies decided to publish such a thing. The "go to" reference for WW2 colour swatches is generally accepted to be the pull out colour card in the back of the RAF Museum (RAFM) book by John Tanner "British Aviation Colours of World War Two".

 

The discussion in this thread is a question of accuracy of the commercially available model paint ranges. Which range of model paints provide the best matches to the RAFM colour card? I hear that @SovereignHobbies enamel paints are excellent, but I'm an acrylic user so I would really like to hear from fellow BM modellers which acrylic paint ranges you believe provide the most accurate matches.

Edited by Nobby Clarke
corrected error
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Nobby Clarke said:

I'm not sure that we need another set of swatches, although I wouldn't say "no" if @Jamie @SovereignHobbies decided to publish such a thing. The "go to" reference for WW2 colour swatches is generally accepted to be the pull out colour card in the back of the RAF Museum (RAFM) book by John Tanner "British Aviation Colours of World War Two".

 

The book was published in 1976, reprinted some 35 years ago(???) and is not routinely available on the second hand market at prices accessible to most modellers. Two of the copies I inspected a few years ago had had the card removed by a previous owner, so do be careful if buying a used copy.

 

Perhaps there is an unfilled need for an updated and more accessible version or at least a colour deck.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Dave Swindell said:

I very much doubt it would be in his interest to sell sets of colour swatches at a price people would be willing to pay so that they could then mix and match from someone else's paint range

That may not be the case.

 

If you use enamels then you would still buy Colourcoats because they are the best. However if you use Acrylics then you wouldn't buy them in any case but a set of swatches would be something you would buy - so maybe it would increase their sales. They would be easier to post and I for one would be willing to pay a fair price so I suspect they could turn a reasonable profit.

 

If you were a company set on copying their paints then you could just buy them anyway so I don't see how it is weakening their position in the market - possibly quite the opposite.

 

All of this is coming from someone (me) who spends far too much time thinking about paint colours. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Nobby Clarke said:

but I'm an acrylic user so I would really like to hear from fellow BM modellers which acrylic paint ranges you believe provide the most accurate matches.

Everyone has their personal preferences, of course. 

Overall, I think @Phantome 's Resource bits http://www.theworldwars.net/resources/resources.php?r=camo_rafww2  go a long way to helping out in getting a starting point (the nice thing is he cites sources for many items)

 

But there are many, many, maaaany colour discussion threads on here, so you pays your moneys... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, alt-92 said:

Everyone has their personal preferences, of course. 

Overall, I think @Phantome 's Resource bits http://www.theworldwars.net/resources/resources.php?r=camo_rafww2  go a long way to helping out in getting a starting point (the nice thing is he cites sources for many items)

 

But there are many, many, maaaany colour discussion threads on here, so you pays your moneys... 

Hmm .. the links in this resource don’t seem to work 😔

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ammo of MiG  subscribes to the theory of scaled paints:

 

https://www.migjimenez.com/en/acrylic-colors/1290-raf-wwii-early-colors.html

 

 

GoZradw.jpg

 

 

It could explain why their RAF Dk Green is not a good match, being already lighter as an attempt at BS 381C 241 Dark Green , and then further lightened for scale effect?

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, alt-92 said:

Everyone has their personal preferences, of course. 

Overall, I think @Phantome 's Resource bits http://www.theworldwars.net/resources/resources.php?r=camo_rafww2  go a long way to helping out in getting a starting point (the nice thing is he cites sources for many items)

I agree that @Phantome has created an excellent resource for model colours, but with the exception of stating a preference for Gunze, a mention that Tamiya XF-81 has changed hue over the years and a discussion of the three Humbrol Dark Greens he does not provide any insight into the accuracy of the other DG’s mentioned in his table of paint colours. This is perhaps a very tall order for a one stop web page; when would he ever be done writing it?

 

Which brings me back to my previous point that discussion threads like this one in BM are a wonderful resource for modelers to share their experiences and preferences. I’m still waiting to find the optimum set of air brushable acrylics for RAF Temperate Land Scheme. Thanks to everyone who is sharing their info and photos - keep them coming!

Edited by Nobby Clarke
Fixed typo
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

For someone that enjoys mixing their own paints, another option might be  High Flow acrylics from Golden Artist Colors,.   They are the only ones I'm aware of that have measured their paints and given them RGB values.  One would also require a copy of Nick Millman's  pdf on RAF paint colours that he has measured.  With this information, the virtual paint mixer would then be used to find paints and mixing ratio:

https://www.goldenpaints.com/mixer

 

I have Nick's publication, and it's the one I wold trust, but here is another value found elsewhere on the innerweb to show as an example:

 

 

spacer.png

 

regards,

Jack

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's another program by Sensuallogic called PaintMaker where you can create mixes for a target sRGB color using Createx Illustrator airbrush colors. Note you must use the Illustrator colors not the normal range of Createx Airbrush or Wicked colors available at hobby stores like Hobby Lobby.

https://sensuallogic.com/paintmaker

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Nobby Clarke said:

This is perhaps a very tall order for a one stop web page; when would he ever be done writing it?

Not to mention sourcing and then comparing paints in a consistent manner...

 

For what it's worth, I've based my go-to's on several of these threads combined with references from Colourcoats, Nick Millman, tests by @Rolls-Royce and others.

I'm not above using different brands of acrylics (true or not) on one kit and will switch brands depending on scheme for the same colours - MSG and Ocean Grey being prime examples of colours ripe for playing around with based on subject and fading.

There's AK RC, Gunze, Tamiya, Hataka and VMA in the drawer.

 

At the end of the day though, here's my stance: Who will look at that finished model most? Me, or anyone else?

It's fine getting the most accurate looking paint, but if the particular nuance of brand X doesn't appeal to your taste while being 1000% right, then what's the point?

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Has anybody tried AK Real Colors? They spray very nicely and settle to a smooth coat. I liked their Dark Earth and Sky, but guess what, their Dark Green (BS 241) is too bright and too olive, but not as bad as the MiG AMMO acrylic paint that @Tour de Airfix showed us earlier. Hmm, seems like a common theme. I’m planning to add a drop or two of a darker green shade to bring it back to the RAF Museum hue.

Edited by Nobby Clarke
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So here are the Spitfire & Hurricane under natural light, painted in the Ammo Mig early WW2 RAF paints .. sitting together in the same hew they look sort of OK. 
 

... less of a disaster in my view than I expected. As JackG so rightly pointed out, Ammo seem to blend on the light side for scale effect, and I tend to understand this, as often I’ve tried to match life like colours only to think the finished model too dark to see all that detail I’ve enjoyed while constructing it! 

 

Douglas Bader inspired Hurricane & Spitfire 1:72 scale models

 

Douglas Bader inspired Hurricane & Spitfire 1:72 scale models

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, JackG said:

Ammo of MiG  subscribes to the theory of scaled paints:

 

https://www.migjimenez.com/en/acrylic-colors/1290-raf-wwii-early-colors.html

 

 

GoZradw.jpg

 

 

It could explain why their RAF Dk Green is not a good match, being already lighter as an attempt at BS 381C 241 Dark Green , and then further lightened for scale effect?

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

 

Hi Jack,

 

That doesn't explain over-saturation though. Were I a cynic, I'd wonder if it's "some random other green" they already make rebottled with some flannel about "scale effect" whatever that really means in objective terms to divert from why it's a just a different colour. It also doesn't explain why the Dark Green which in real life was 2% Light Reflectance Value darker than Dark Earth is in MIG's case is substantially lighter than their Dark Earth. That's the real issue here - the relationship between the two colours on the model jumps out as being an unhappy marriage.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Nobby Clarke said:

There's another program by Sensuallogic called PaintMaker where you can create mixes for a target sRGB color using Createx Illustrator airbrush colors. Note you must use the Illustrator colors not the normal range of Createx Airbrush or Wicked colors available at hobby stores like Hobby Lobby.

https://sensuallogic.com/paintmaker

The problem I see with apps like this is that some real-life camouflage colors are outside sRGB space, so the app can't really suggest a mix. sRGB is also a little "coarse" in steps compared to something like Munsell.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Concerning over saturation of MiG's colours, I might be wrong, but this brand does approach colours from the artistic side?  Anyhow, I myself have studied painting at an art college for a few years, and when it comes to lightening colours, it does not necessarily mean just mean adding white.   Again, taking green base for example, along with white, you can add yellow, and possibly even a bright blue.  This will result in a lighter shade than what was started with, but still end up with a dense colour as opposed to being washed out if just adding white.

 

Yes, have seen the sensuallogic paint mixer, but are limited in the number of paints with any particular brand you chose, as well as how many 'searches' you can try before being prompted to pay for full use.

 

RGB can produce over 16 million colours - certainly one of those must be near enough visually to match a specific colour being sought, or am I misunderstanding something?

 

regards,

Jack

Edited by JackG
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, JackG said:

Concerning over saturation of MiG's colours, I might be wrong, but this brand does approach colours from the artistic side?  Anyhow, I myself have studied painting at an art college for a few years, and when it comes to lightening colours, it does not necessarily mean just mean adding white.   Again, taking green base for example, along with white, you can add yellow, and possibly even a bright blue.  This will result in a lighter shade than what was started with, but still end up with a dense colour as opposed to being washed out if just adding white.

 

Yes, have seen the sensuallogic paint mixer, but are limited in the number of paints with any particular brand you chose, as well as how many 'searches' you can try before being prompted to pay for full use.

 

RGB can produce over 16 million colours - certainly one of those must be near enough visually to match a specific colour being sought, or am I misunderstanding something?

 

regards,

Jack

Jack, several months ago, when I measured the chips in my RAF Museum volume, a number of them were identified by the 3rd-party software I use (BabelColor's CT&A) as being outside the sRGB gamut. Despite the number of colors a gamut can produce, any color that lies outside its Red > Green > Blue boundaries cannot be accurately represented by that gamut, as I'm sure you're aware.  BTW, those colors were Deep Sky, Yellow, and Matt Red.

Edited by Rolls-Royce
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, JackG said:

RGB can produce over 16 million colours

Yes but those colours are within a certain range (or gamut) and there are many colours that can be perceived by the human eye that are outside that range. The range is defined by the particular colour space e.g. sRGB.

 

The diagram at the top of this page should help.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRGB

 

Presumably the deep Sky, Yellow and Matt Red that Rolls-Royce analysed (above) exist outside of the triangle in this image. It would therefore be impossible to match them using the sRGB colourspace. If you put the closest possible one against the exact one you might see quite a difference.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well what Nick Millman did was measure with a photospectrometric device in L*a*b* and then converted to sRGB for his pdf document.  So I have is an inaccurate product?   Good to know, so no point in investing in a new paint brand and mixing colours.  Sorry for the waste of time.

 

regards,

Jack

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, JackG said:

Sorry for the waste of time

On the contrary it has sparked my interest in those paints and been a fascinating discussion.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well maybe, honestly I was hesitant to bring up the Golden High Flow paints and matching to digital because I wanted to try it myself first.    Was all set to do this last year, while waiting to buy a number of paints during the Black Friday event (on top of free shipping), but they were sold out by the time it came to purchase.  Four months later,  still waiting on the store to do a restock.

 

regards,

Jack

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...