Accuracy of AMMO by Mig Jiménez RAF WWII Colours

[Steben]

FS34079, 285 Nato Green, modern definitions of Dark Green (241 fe), 298 olive drab, SCC15, ..... All these British "green drabs" (what Nick describes as olive drab side of green) have a similar expression in RGB.

All have very close values of Red en Green (marking it as yellow) followed by Blue. The most single difference between them is saturation.

 

Reminds me of interior green and 4BO. These too have such an expression.

[paulsbrown]

Ammo's Su-35 paint set was the most insulting thing I ever bought. None of the colors were even close. 

 

I avoid their paint completely now.

[Steben]

7 minutes ago, paulsbrown said:

Ammo's Su-35 paint set was the most insulting thing I ever bought. None of the colors were even close. 

 

I avoid their paint completely now.

Most "sets" include FS colours I noticed. Question is: is the FS reference correct and the paint not, or is the paint the FS reference, but with a bad reference.

[alt-92]

1 hour ago, paulsbrown said:

I avoid their paint completely now.

They do have some weird ones, but also mismarked colours that work remarkably well for another application

Dull Green as an interior colour for instance, and the washable black is great for distemper or walkways.

[Ed Russell]

56 minutes ago, alt-92 said:

mismarked colours that work remarkably well for another application

Someone should produce a leaflet called "What you can actually use Mig Jiménez colours for and have an accurate match".

[Graham Boak]

Not just for Ammo.  Just don't expect anyone to produce such lists.   Remember also that paint manufacturers are not always consistent with their paints.  Any list produced for the more commercial producers is likely to be wrong in one or more matches by the time it was introduced.  There is no perfect way, but sticking to the less popular brands helps a lot.  In enamels I would use Colourcoats, Xtracolour and Phoenix Precision.  For convenience (and a large back-stock) I also use Humbrol but generally for first/undercoats largely because of their covering value.  Anyone with a stock of Gloy is blessed.  I don't know of any water-based acrylics with that high (if never perfect) level of consistent accuracy, although I'm sure that some individual colours have uses..  I gather that some ranges of the lacquer acrylics are much better in this respect but as I rarely use these I'd rather not make suggestions.

 

H30 as shown by the tine above may well have been an olive green in the early 60s, but it bore little resemblance to their Authentic RAF Dark Green, which was significantly darker and more olive.

[keefr22]

4 hours ago, Steben said:

yes you'll be fine for a correct pink and gold one

 

You sure? What standard are you matching them to....??

   

 

1 hour ago, Ed Russell said:

Someone should produce a leaflet called "What you can actually use Mig Jiménez colours for and have an accurate match".

 

Doesn't sound like it would be a very big one...

 

[Steben]

13 minutes ago, keefr22 said:

 

You sure? What standard are you matching them to....??

   

 

 

The gold standard

[Werdna]

1 hour ago, keefr22 said:

Doesn't sound like it would be a very big one...

 

I mostly use Vallejo, but I use Mig's RLM74 in preference to Vallejo's (more grey, less green), but Mig's RLM75 is way off.  Also, their range of metal colours is pretty good.  Their RLM82 comes in useful sometimes, being quite a bright green.  Mig's RLM81 (I've mentioned this before) I just poured it straight into the waste container.  Never seen anything like it.

 

It's a shame, because the paint itself is pretty decent, but some of the colours are bizarre, to be sure.  On the other hand, maybe Mig is right - and we are all labouring under a giant misapprehension..  

[JackG]

14 hours ago, Merlin said:

I am puzzled is AK now AMMO MIG or are they totally independent, I see a forum post where the paint supplier of AK exits stage left on AK products, .

What an absolutely gorgeous woofer you have there by the way.

 

 

Mig Jimenez originally worked with and was part of AK Interactive.  According to this posting, the separation occurred in the latter part of 2013, and since then has started his own company and brand.

 

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/558616.page

http://www.plasticmodelsworld.com/node/920

 

I think the only thing they continue to have in common is the both subscribe to scale colour.  Understandable confusion, as some products that Mig helped create when with AK used his name, such as MIG pigments - note all caps used for his name.  Now that he owns his own brand, he uses all lower case lettering  - Ammo by mig for example.  At least, that is what I can figure out...

 

 

regards,

Jack

[Rolls-Royce]

25 minutes ago, JackG said:

 

Mig Jimenez originally worked with and was part of AK Interactive.  According to this posting, the separation occurred in the latter part of 2013, and since then has started his own company and brand.

 

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/558616.page

http://www.plasticmodelsworld.com/node/920

 

I think the only thing they continue to have in common is the both subscribe to scale colour.  Understandable confusion, as some products that Mig helped create when with AK used his name, such as MIG pigments - note all caps used for his name.  Now that he owns his own brand, he uses all lower case lettering  - Ammo by mig for example.  At least, that is what I can figure out...

 

 

regards,

Jack

Possibly a trademark or copyright issue involved there somewhere.

Oh, yes, before someone mentions it, the Russian aircraft manufacturer is "MiG"... 

[JackG]

It seems AK played on that with their MIG brand by also featuring a red star on the weathering products:

 

 

 

[Jochen Barett]

Apologies for "(still, the AMMO RAF paints are way off! Humrol 29&30 are better matches :-)"

 

Recheck

 

I did not try to tell anybody Humbrol 30 is a good match, I just tried to say even Humbrol 30 is a better match.

 

In the olden days we had next to nothing and H30 was everything we had, but then came the war and we even had to dilute our water!

Today we know better and we can easily find better matches - and there is no decent reason for coming up with those AMMO by Mig Jimenez RAF colors.

 

But even that I'm writing in a mood of calm frustration or resignation, not spitting over my keyboard and avoiding "bold".

[Ed Russell]

9 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Just don't expect anyone to produce such lists.

It would be a huge undertaking so I don't really - someone said their colour A.MG 0254 (supposedly being RLM 75) was very good for one of the US Compass Grays. Not many people have the time, resources or knowledge to do such comparisons but no doubt some of their colours must be useful for something!

[IanC]

On 5/30/2021 at 10:46 AM, keefr22 said:

 

Then, in regard to those WW2 'colour' pictures. How do we know they are actual colour pictures or have been colourised after the event. Look at how washed out the grass and sky looks in many of them - or the desert floor under AN-V. And if they are actual colour pictures, what film stock was used? 

 

The shot of AN-V over Tunisia is most certainly a genuine colour photo. Taken on Kodachrome, as were nearly all official British colour images of the time. The early air to air shot of 19 Squadron Spits was taken on the much rarer Dufaycolor, privately obtained.

 

[Dave Swindell]

On 06/06/2021 at 10:49, Ed Russell said:

Someone should produce a leaflet called "What you can actually use Mig Jiménez colours for and have an accurate match".

Already available from several publishers in loose leaf format, it's quite a heavy tome....

[Seahawk]

On 6/5/2021 at 10:29 PM, Troy Smith said:

By this,  Airfix Dark Green M3 was a decent stab at a scale RAF Dark Green BTW, it's a not too saturated olive green.  

Bit of a digression into the foothills of nostalgia but..

 

If ever this was true (and it certainly doesn't jive with my recollection of M3 being a fairly bright grass green that often never dried hard), I think this was more by luck than judgment.  Remember that, when Airfix first brought out their model paints, model railways were The Big Thing and plastic aircraft kits the young upstart.  Their initial set of matt paints reflected the needs of railway buildings and accessories, without any thought of aircraft.  For what I remember as quite a long period there were only 6 in the matt range: M1 Brick red, M2 Slate grey, M3 Green, M4 Concrete, M5 Earth and M6 Black.  Some of those have now been renamed (I see M4 is now manilla) and maybe the colours changed over time as well - but I remember M3 and the much much later M17 Dark Green delivering a nice contrasty (and hence completely inaccurate!) splinter scheme for Luftwaffe aircraft.

[Troy Smith]

2 hours ago, Seahawk said:

Bit of a digression into the foothills of nostalgia but..

yes..... indeed....  and off  down the rabbit hole, I mean shed i go...... some grubbing in a box of doom,  some wiping with a microfibre

 

50620938 by losethekibble, on Flickr

2 hours ago, Seahawk said:

 

If ever this was true (and it certainly doesn't jive with my recollection of M3 being a fairly bright grass green that often never dried hard),

I used Airfix mostly as child, and never had any problems.

2 hours ago, Seahawk said:

I think this was more by luck than judgment.  Remember that, when Airfix first brought out their model paints, model railways were The Big Thing and plastic aircraft kits the young upstart.  Their initial set of matt paints reflected the needs of railway buildings and accessories, without any thought of aircraft.  For what I remember as quite a long period there were only 6 in the matt range: M1 Brick red, M2 Slate grey, M3 Green, M4 Concrete, M5 Earth and M6 Black.  Some of those have now been renamed (I see M4 is now manilla) and maybe the colours changed over time as well

genuine Airfix paint, applied 1975/76.   Note the Hurricane roundel missing chunk, which was when I forced to use the M3 "equivalent" Humbrol 30, which I disliked greatly as it obviously was NOT the same as Airfix M3

The Boston. must be late 75, in M3/M5, The Hurricane was 75, but was later repainted, as the missing roundel shows. M5, and M3, the lighter bits were a thinned old can,  the darker, either a new one, or  maybe M17.

A bit light, hence not bad as a 'scale match'  and certainly  better than Humbrol 30 .......

 

 

2 hours ago, Seahawk said:

- but I remember M3 and the much much later M17 Dark Green delivering a nice contrasty (and hence completely inaccurate!) splinter scheme for Luftwaffe aircraft.

Just for you, the He111 , 9th Birthday present so done  March or April 75,  judging by the paint, the He 177 is similar vintage.... I know these have to be M3 and M17 ......  as I was very particular (well for a 9 year old)  about following the instructions. 

 

Actually, I used both M3 and M17 for Dark Green, depending on what I had to hand as the archive dig revealed....

 

I dug out a Frog Spitfire, from maybe early 77.   but it got missed off the pic....

 

Apologies for the diversion, though I presume some will suddenly be taken with a Proustian rush*  back to 70's childhood builds..... 

ah....

 

 

*I have not read Proust, and I only know of Proust because of Monty Python.... and it was many many  years  before I got 'the joke' that  entailed.... Proust's Remembrance of Things Past is a very very long multi volume book, and summarising is in 30 seconds is just sort of joke some university students would find hilarious even if that detail was lost to most....  

And now for something completely different.... time to get to the washing in.  And shut up the shed...

[Steben]

IMHO Vallejo 70.897 for the winning Dark Green.... check the other thread.

[ptarmigan]

On 29/05/2021 at 22:38, Merlin said:

 

If only the RAF Museums series Book Vol 3 was on all the bookshelves and available at a decent price to us all

 

 

On 30/05/2021 at 11:14, Steben said:

We know there are standard swatches and definitions around for many many colours. We know there is and was wear and application.

We can choose to simply establish the standard colour and let the modeller do his or her thing to make for the variation. This is clear and gives at the same time freedom.

 

On 30/05/2021 at 13:07, Troy Smith said:

the RAF Musuem book was done in the 70's.   Paint formulas exist,  @Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies has made up Royal Navy paint to these formulas to check.

What is more imporant from these, as Jamies has so well pointed out,  given the sheer volume of paint needed, and the pigments used, and the varing costs,  that paint was within a close range. 

 

This is a pet peeve of mine. I am ok with mixing my own paint, if need be. It would be better to be able to buy the correct coloured (i.e. the period look of a brand new paint) water based brushable acrylic paint, but I can live in the world where such paints are not available. What I really really really hate is the fact there is no easy way to buy period correct paint chip charts of the shelf for a reasonable price. Such a shame. Give me the RAF, USAF, US Navy, Luftwaffe...  WWII paint chip charts and I'll be happy for the rest of my modelling life.

Edited June 8, 2021 by ptarmigan
typos

[lasermonkey]

@Troy Smith every time I see or hear Proust’s name mention, I start singing “Proust, in his first book…..” to bemused and blank stares. I think you’re the first person I’ve seen reference the sketch!

[Steben]

10 hours ago, ptarmigan said:

 

 

 

 

This is a pet peeve of mine. I am ok with mixing my own paint, if need be. It would be better to be able to buy the correct coloured (i.e. the period look of a brand new paint) water based brushable acrylic paint, but I can live in the world where such paints are not available. What I really really really hate is the fact there is no easy way to buy period correct paint chip charts of the shelf for a reasonable price. Such a shame. Give me the RAF, USAF, US Navy, Luftwaffe...  WWII paint chip charts and I'll be happy for the rest of my modelling life.

I am planning to have such a library... Some of these exist, some easy, some not.... British themes are done. Starmers work and RAF museum swatches are there. German stuff is possible with Tomas Chory his book and I am planning to get the hikoki swatches.

US colours are hard or very expensive. But they are paramount...

[Hook]

10 hours ago, lasermonkey said:

@Troy Smith every time I see or hear Proust’s name mention, I start singing “Proust, in his first book…..” to bemused and blank stares. I think you’re the first person I’ve seen reference the sketch!

Well, not everyone knows where the Arthur Ludlow Memorial Baths are situated.

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

On 6/8/2021 at 8:13 PM, ptarmigan said:

What I really really really hate is the fact there is no easy way to buy period correct paint chip charts of the shelf for a reasonable price.

 

I'd venture it's because it's horrifically time consuming and the quality control on the paints airbrushed out needs to be gas-tight, as does the control of the film thickness too.

 

It's not especially difficult but there's going to be a very big difference between what someone who could do it would consider a financial return worth getting out of bed for considering the shear amount of time needed, and what the typical consumer would consider a reasonable price.

 

That's why books with painted chips as opposed to printed chips tend to be quite expensive.

[lasermonkey]

Speaking as someone who paints swatches of every new colour I buy, I can attest to the time-swallowing nature of this compulsion. To be honest, I'm not even sure why I do it, but I have ever since I was in my mid-teens. And I don't take any special care about film thickness, I've just gone for a good, uniform covering.

 

Anyone doing this as a commercial product would likely be doing it more as a labour of love than a way of getting rich. I mean, if I was a billionaire, I'd probably look into doing it just because I'd like the resource myself.