perdu Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 Nice. Do they expect you to provide your own plasticard? Tssk tssk... But in the real world what a great idea, well done Pheon go to the top of the class with a very classy idea. She looks rather good Alan, top of the class every time mate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex-FAAWAFU Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 That’s really looking good - and there is a pleasing symmetry in using a Bill-Transfer intended for a 28 Sqn Wessex on a 28 Sqn Brisfit. I second the praise of Phaeon - and I LOVE Aizu tape. All good. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CedB Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 Looking bloomin' lovely hendie, very smart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbadbadge Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 Looking very nice indeed, the info re the decals is interesting and will have to take a look at their site as have a few WW1 aircraft to do. Thanks Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 The extras were unknown to me too, if I had known about them I would certainly have mentioned them! Looking good now with some real colour on her! Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giemme Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 16 hours ago, hendie said: I'm still impressed with that jig. So am I! Excellent job all round, anyway Ciao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Masters Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 This is looking marvellous. I can't believe it is a Roden product. I have built the 1/72nd scale version and it tuned out alright. This is something else entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendie Posted October 25, 2020 Author Share Posted October 25, 2020 On 10/23/2020 at 3:29 AM, Terry1954 said: Excellent progress, and that jig looks like a superb aid. Other manufacturers should take note! Really starting to look the part now. Terry thanks Terry. On 10/23/2020 at 3:39 AM, Hamden said: Seconded! Stay safe Roger Ta Roger On 10/23/2020 at 4:15 AM, perdu said: Nice. Do they expect you to provide your own plasticard? Tssk tssk... But in the real world what a great idea, well done Pheon go to the top of the class with a very classy idea. She looks rather good Alan, top of the class every time mate. Very impressed with Pheon so far Bill On 10/23/2020 at 4:46 AM, Ex-FAAWAFU said: That’s really looking good - and there is a pleasing symmetry in using a Bill-Transfer intended for a 28 Sqn Wessex on a 28 Sqn Brisfit. I second the praise of Phaeon - and I LOVE Aizu tape. All good. More Aizu in action in this weeks episode On 10/23/2020 at 5:29 AM, CedB said: Looking bloomin' lovely hendie, very smart ta Ced On 10/23/2020 at 5:55 AM, bigbadbadge said: Looking very nice indeed, the info re the decals is interesting and will have to take a look at their site as have a few WW1 aircraft to do. Thanks Chris I'm not sure if other decal sets provide the same amount of freebies - might be worth asking On 10/23/2020 at 9:24 AM, Brandy said: The extras were unknown to me too, if I had known about them I would certainly have mentioned them! Looking good now with some real colour on her! Ian I really think wassisname should be shouting about this stuff on his website. On 10/23/2020 at 11:21 AM, giemme said: So am I! Excellent job all round, anyway Ciao Thanks G On 10/23/2020 at 12:04 PM, John Masters said: This is looking marvellous. I can't believe it is a Roden product. I have built the 1/72nd scale version and it tuned out alright. This is something else entirely. I've heard mixed reviews about Roden. The main one being that they are difficult to build. I think I have just reached that point in this build - getting those wings in place is a bit of a pig, even with the aid of the jig I have to say though that the quality of the molding is very good, no complaints there. The roundels were separated at the ailerons - a lot easier than I imagined. look at this! for the first time in 6 years I do not have a Pullman Car sitting on my bench - what a strange feeling to have room to work in. I went through my decal stash about eleventy two times and found just about every letter in the alphabet in white - apart from "A" Well I did find one, but it was an old yellowed set which went all weird on me when I dipped it in water. Nothing for it then, but out with the Aizu - or wait an inordinate amount of time and spent more hard earned moolah on some decal set just to get the letter A. Aizu it is then. I should mention at this point that I have no references which show that the roof had a big A on it, but other F2b's of the same period had code letters somewhere up there. Sometimes in the center, sometimes over towards one of the roundels. I'm going for symmetry, just because. Once I had the A outlined in Aizu, the rest was filled in with standard Tamiya tape and taking no chances.... (oh how I envy those folks who can airbrush freehand with minimal masking and don't get any overspray whatsoever) I'm a clutz, so overkill on the masking is the only way to go for me. There's a wing under there somewhere I misted the A with alclad grey primer just to make it a bit easier for the white to cover, since we all know how easy it is to spray white, especially over a dark color. About 20 minutes later I hit it with Mr Hobby white. Not perfect but not a bad job at all. I cleaned up a few errant patches with a toothpick and I'm going to leave it at that. I'd probably do more damage trying to touch up what I already have. I'm going to leave the white to harden up for a day or so then I'll do a gentle micromesh just to remove any raised edges. The fuselage got a misting of Alclad semi matt or whatever they call it these days. Bill's "A" and the Pheon transfers settled in nicely. I then spent about an hour trying to get wings in position - with little success. I think I have a path forward so hopefully the next session will see (most of) the wings in place, and we're just that much closer to starting the rigging. 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giemme Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 Maskin' and sprayin' ... nothing can beat that! Ciao 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CedB Posted October 27, 2020 Share Posted October 27, 2020 Great 'A' hendie, lovely job 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendie Posted November 7, 2020 Author Share Posted November 7, 2020 On 10/25/2020 at 7:23 PM, giemme said: Maskin' and sprayin' ... nothing can beat that! Ciao On 10/27/2020 at 3:14 AM, CedB said: Great 'A' hendie, lovely job Thanks guys - appreciated! it's be a little while since I posted in this thread and this update isn't going to be the type of update I hoped it was going to be, more of which later. In the meantime - look folks - hairy wings! The process of trying to poke unfeasibly thin snakes of dark colored fishing line into teensy tiny little holes drilled in an almost as dark colored wing inside a ridiculously confined space in the right order and without criss-crossing lines (otherwise know as "rigging") begins. and continues... it's a bit tight in there and trying to sort which lines went in which direction was a game that kept me un-amused for several days. You may have spotted in the shot above that one of the struts has popped out of its 'ole. This was where the problems really began. I found that the lower wing did not have enough dihedral due to either warp and/or packaging. That meant that 1) the wing did not sit correctly in the jig, and 2) the fuselage did not sit correctly on the lower wing, and 3) the upper wing suffered from the same issue. The lower wing issue could be resolved with some tape, but I had to use the rigging lines to pull the upper wing down onto the struts. To make matters worse, the struts and their location points were not particularly well defined and there was no real positive joint - just a very basic butt joint. That meant that every now and then, a strut would come loose. By the time I had enough rigging wires in place to securely hold the wing and not have any struts fall out, I found that the wing had shifted off center slightly (see below).In my naivete I assumed I could nudge the wing back into alignment using tension on the rigging still to be done. I know that you are going to ask - where are the cabane struts? Well, I already mentioned about the rather vague location points in the wing. The same was true of the location points for the cabane struts in the upper wing, but the fuselage location points were even worse. - They were a very small recess in the fuselage side creating a tiny ledge which the bottom edge of the cabane strut was intended to sit on. Hah! Not a chance matey. I decided to wait to the end and then fit the cabane struts in position after all the man-handling had been finished. In hindsight I should have drilled and pinned the struts, but I didn't. At this juncture I also noticed that the front grill was not aligned properly, being tilted over to one side. I was a bit angry with myself for letting things get this far and not noticing that issue, however, the grill popped out remarkably easily - without damage and was refitted with no photo as proof Another recurring issue I had throughout this process was the undercarriage. Roden have designed the undercarriage so that you try and glue 4 location points at one time, all the while trying to get the angle relative to the fuselage correct. Again, no real "pin and hole" joints - just basic butt joints. I don't have the lightest touch or the nimblest fingers and the undercarriage was knocked off several times destroying the location features, poor as they were to begin with. Rigging continued though and I have to say that the aforementioned process of trying to poke unfeasibly thin snakes of dark colored fishing line into teensy tiny little holes drilled in an almost as dark colored wing inside a ridiculously confined space in the right order and without criss-crossing lines and causing severe eye strain was remarkably therapeutic. The feeling that you encounter immediately following completing a section of rigging is how I imagine you feel immediately after coming to after being tazed. I even managed to complete the twin lines with the single line passing between them without clashing. I was pretty pleased with that. and then the fuselage fell off again Taking a break from the therapy/tazing I went for some PE. Why? I dunno. I'm an adult, I passed my exams (well some of them) so I'm not completely stupid (some of the time) so I should have known better. Can you see the two fold lines on the PE "H"? Really? REALLY? Eventually I did. Not perfect, but it does fit over some clear plastic that will eventually be the windscreen Only to discover that it's a bit tall and isn't going to fit when the glass is in place. Getting some of the rigging attached to the fuselage was a bit of a challenge and I had to get creative with bits of wire to pull rigging into position through the cowling. - It was just as well the fuselage fell off earlier as I discovered a few rigging holes that needed drilling, and it allowed me to feed wire through the cowling in preparation for this By this time we're getting close to the finish, the rigging is looking decent Now it was time to fit the cabane struts. Warning: those of a weak disposition may wish to look away now. Ehhhrrrrrrr.... Crap. What can I say? Mea Culpa. Wing is off center, and the port side rear strut is bent, and the rigging around the cabane struts isn't tight. The bend in the strut is way more noticeable in this shot. What to do? Well, after much thought, I've decided to ditch this build. Is it repairable? Probably, and I have no doubt that someone like @Brandy would have no problems sorting this out, and would probably never have got himself into this state in the first place. There were too many things that didn't go quite right and if I'm going to fix one I'd want to fix them all - and I'd probably do more damage trying to correct some of the minor errors than just leaving them as is. At the end of the day I think I could salvage it, but I'd never be happy with it - and that is the key point for me. I'll keep this as a reminder, and put it down to (in)experience. I certainly learnt a lot during this build so in that respect I am happy. I have to say thought that I enjoyed this build up until it all went wrong. I still think the Roden kit is a very well molded kit, but it is certainly not one for the faint of heart, or the inexperienced modeler. I think perhaps I bit off more than I could chew by going for an F2b as my first a/c with rigging. I have, already in my hands, an Eduard F2b, which by all accounts is an easier build. I shall be starting that shortly - after I practice my rigging skills on an Audax and a Camel 5 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CedB Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 Sad to see this one heading for the educational shelf Hendie but hey, there are too many other things going on at the moment and your sanity is valuable to us 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Masters Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 1 hour ago, hendie said: I have to say thought that I enjoyed this build up until it all went wrong. I still think the Roden kit is a very well molded kit, but it is certainly not one for the faint of heart, or the inexperienced modeler. That sums up Roden for ya'... beautifully moulded, fine detail...but whoever engineers these kits doesn't build them. The engine/cowling dilemma is a good example. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 So sorry to see this Alan. My comments would be: a) Always drill the wing or fuselage mounting points and add a piece of brass rod or similar to the struts to give a positive location for the struts into the wings. My method varies according to the strut design. Either a slot in the centre of the strut end, or file the front/rear edge, then CA the pin in place, depending on where the mounting point is. b) Always, wherever feasible, fit the cabanes first and attach the upper wing to them. The outer struts should have enough of a bend to them to be able to fit them afterwards. This assumes that you have very short brass rod locator pins added to the struts, and the struts are thin enough, to bend them just a tad to clip the brass rod into the locating holes previously drilled. Don't give up, and bear in mind that what you see me doing is a result of 12 years of building biplanes and learning/improving my methods as I go - my first efforts were far from pretty, and I am still learning and adapting my methods - see the FE8 for proof of that! There is no "right way", only what works best for you! Ian 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perdu Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 I am sad, kinda that this hasn't gone the way it should have Alan but frankly I have to say you taught me many things about biplane-modelling, the most valuable is that it isnt for me. I did hope it would work out well though but what's to be is to be, I will enjoy the new one when you bring it to the stage. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry1954 Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 I'm with @Brandy. It would be such a shame to give up on this one. Whatever you decide to do this has been a superb build so far. I had a Sabre build a year or so back that was going so well, until I decide to weather the thing. I got my varnishes/washes all wrong and the thing looked hideous, with paint being rubbed away and all sorts, which is not good for a natural metal finish. I put it aside and did some other projects, then I decided to sort the thing, and I did sort it. I think @perdu and a few others may recall that build. An RAF Sabre 4. The point is it now proudly sits on my display shelf and attracts some seriously good compliments................ as I love to say a lot here, just saying...... Terry 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giemme Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 Pity it ended up like this, Alan - but I totally sympathise with your feelings. Ciao 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbadbadge Posted November 7, 2020 Share Posted November 7, 2020 What a shame, but as you say you have learned a lot so all is not lost, you never know one day you may decide to revisit it and crack it. Chris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Masters Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 10 hours ago, Brandy said: Always, wherever feasible, fit the cabanes first and attach the upper wing to them. This is a fact. I have been building biplanes for decades and this is the truth. You can always scratch build interplane struts to fit if you need to. I always rig the cabane areas with stretched sprue and CA. It's easier than monofilament. Once again, cut to fit. This is a lovely build. You shouldn't abandon it. However, if the mojo has left the room, then that's it I suppose. Nice work on what you managed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marklo Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, John Masters said: That sums up Roden for ya'... beautifully moulded, fine detail...but whoever engineers these kits doesn't build them. The engine/cowling dilemma is a good example. On the basis of my sole Roden kit I have to concur. My Dh4a looked extremely well designed but was extremely difficult to put together. I have this Brisfit in my stash and wil probably attempt it next year sometime, but at least I’ll be forewarned that I need to do a bit of careful model engineering on the struts and assembly. TBH I’ve also encountered this with a lot of new tooled Airfix kits too. Sorry to see this one get away as it was looking so well. I’d be inclined to go back a few steps and pin the struts, possibly build and rig the wings as a separate unit and then look at how to hang it off the fuselage. I suspect the key might be to attach the assembly via the cabane struts as if it’s a parasol and then bring in the undercarriage. Edited November 8, 2020 by Marklo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Masters Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 Try this @hendie... https://www.scalemates.com/kits/eduard-8127-bristol-f2b-fighter--950005# and on the auction site... https://www.ebay.com/itm/BRISTOL-F-2B-FIGHTER-1-48-EDUARD-8489/184348392590?hash=item2aec053c8e:g:3QgAAOSw7Rle~GJq I assure you that this will build much better...and easier. 😁 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfSparks Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 Hi hendie, thank you for taking the time to approach this kit with good humor, good skills, an enlightening display of the 'quirks', and a determination to see how it goes together just because you want to. This build is a valuable resource, and should be up there with completed projects that fall together OOB. No doubt your pathfinding will prove invaluable to others who follow. Cheers Steve 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendie Posted November 8, 2020 Author Share Posted November 8, 2020 Thanks to all who commented - I appreciate the suggestions. As Ced mentioned, it's going on the Educational shelf for the time being. I'm certainly not binning it. In time I may revisit it and see if I can do anything with it. The Eduard F2b has arrived and is warming up in the stash and will be next in line after the Audax and Camel. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted November 8, 2020 Share Posted November 8, 2020 Wayyyyyy too late to the party, but thought I should clear up the use of F.2bs by 28 Sqn. The date was mid-March to June 1918 and six aircraft formed an attached 'Z' Flight of the squadron. I've done a fair bit of research on 28 Sqn (they received Camels at my local aerodrome, Yatesbury, and returned to Home Establishment there in 1919), and here are a couple of items from 28 Sqn and 139 Sqn records. Note too that Hursthouse in the "Italy" photo at the start of the thread, didn't join 139 til August 1918. It does however mean that there must be some photos out there of 28 Sqn "Z" Flight F.2bs. Typically, Air Britain is set to release a book on the Bristol Fighter - not sure when it will be published, but it will be sure to detail those WW1 28 Sqn F.2bs! 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hendie Posted November 28, 2020 Author Share Posted November 28, 2020 Ding Ding! Round 2 and we're back again for yet more punishment. thanks for all the commiserations folks. Yes, I took a bit of a beating, but to be honest, it was 99.999% my own fault, but hey - at least I learned a thing or two. My other modeling ventures have ground to a soft halt while waiting on supplies and as I cast my eyes around the (very limited) stash, my oculars kept resting on the Eduard F2b kit. It was either that or a Hurricane or a Spitfire. I think I want to take my time with the Hurricane and I'm really not in a rush to start a Spitfire anytime soon - it's not as if there's a shortage of them in this forum is there? F2b it is then. I thought about starting a separate thread, and then thought - well, if I do that, my previous effort will get lost in the midst of time. You never know - someone may benefit from seeing my mistakes and hopefully learn enough to head them off, or at least handle them better than I did on my first attempt at a biplane. I must have caught some kind of fever as I now have three of these creatures on the go at once now. Audax. Camel. Now this F2b. What on earth is happening to me? Okay, so this is Eduards take on the F2b. At first glance it seems quite promising and I'll admit, I went straight to the undercarriage to check that out first. It certainly seems a more robust method of attaching the u/c to the airframe than Roden's weird take on engineering. Curiosity satisfied I thought I'd start somewhere near the beginning of the instructions. The drivers seat seemed like a good candidate. Eduards seat consists of two shards of PE, two bits of plastic for the seat itself, and another chunk for the frame that the seat rests on. (there was another bit of PE for the seat but I decided not to use it.) The easy part was gluing the seat cushion and the curved backrest together - rather more awkward was getting it to sit at the correct angle, but we got there. I spent ages hunting for something of the correct diameter to bend the PE seat parts, and eventually found a scrap of aluminum rod that I had turned for something (who knows what) and as luck would have it, it was the correct diameter for rolling the PE parts. I then spent about a coffee and a half trying to glue the PE part in between the seat cushion and the backrest. It kept falling through, falling off, pinging somewhere, and just generally not wanting to cooperate. Then the coffee kicked in and I thought IDIOT! The aluminum rod I used to roll the seat back is the perfect diameter to hold it all in place. Once my brain cells captured that thought, it only took a few minutes to glue the first part in place. The second piece was a doddle After that, it was fill in the gaps with Mr Dissolved Putty (great stuff!). I also used that on the "leather" portion of the backrest to take away that uniform molded look and make it look a bit more lived in. Once painted up, it looks rather nice. I wouldn't go as far as to say 'comfy' but not ugly at least. The rest of the cockpit area was mainly cut then trim then paint then stick in place. You saw it all before in the Roden version so I won't bore you with the details again. I do have to say that the Eduard cockpit interior seems to be more busy than the Roden version, though as I mentioned before, the quality of the Roden molding was very good. Eduards molding - not so much - lots of mold mismatch and some flash here and there but nothing dreadful (so far) While Eduard cockpit area is busier than Roden's, I feel that Roden did a better job of the molded in detail (which I always dislike). It was a lot easier to paint the Roden offering, and I really dislike the fact that Eduard molded the bracing wires in place. There's just no way anyone as kludgy as me can paint that with any degree of accuracy. I ended up going over the bracing wires with a pencil after it was all painted. I use the term 'painted' very loosely indeed - my detail painting is atrocious. Something that was missing on the Roden kit was this aperture in the floor. Eduard provide a rectangular hole and expect you to cut a piece of film to fit the opening perfectly. Yeahhhhhhhh, right. Since it's going to be under the cockpit floor, I chiselled a recess around the opening - that way I can cut a piece of clear film as sloppy as I like and it still has a chance of looking half decent when its fitted Remember that Roden engine I spent so much time on? Then it didn't fit! Eduard have taken the easy route here and just provided two slabs - one for each side of the engine. I painted it even sloppier than usual - not on purpose I might add - just a bad day I guess. That slab then gets glued to the inside of the nose - we'll see how it all lines up later shall we? After all that, the cockpit got glued in place. I had to trim a bit of the rear of each engine slab for the cockpit to fit where it's supposed to. Wasn't me - honest! Those engine slabs fitted quite well, and there was no room to slide them back or forward. At the rear of the gunners position, there's a couple of storage pockets. Eduard only give you a flat slab, so I added the storage pockets from cigarette foil cigarette foil in place Talking of which... cigarette foil. Great stuff. Back in the Roden build I used ridiculously small pieces of PE for the ammo drum handles. I hated it. This time, I cut some cigarette foil into thin strips, painted it a sort of buff color, then cut it into 4 mm lengths. It's so much more friendly to use than PE. It has paper on one side and embossed foil on the other. takes paint very easily, and if you use superglue on the paper side, the glue actually works! Who knew? Ammo drum in process of being handed a handle Since it has foil, you can also twist it into all sorts of shapes and it stays there. Who needs PE? Ammo drums stuck in place From above So below the other side Then this evenings shenanigans were brought to a conclusion by fitting some greeblies on the nose that Eduard did not account for Right, now where my darned modeling supplies.... 11 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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