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28 SQN (Allegedly) Bristol F2B


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Really impressive work on that thar Scarff ring Alan - the visual 'weights' of its various sections contrast extremely convincingly with one another. 👏

 

I had a quick look into Tim Mason's book on flight testing at Martlesham to see if it would reveal any details on:

2 hours ago, hendie said:

There's also some strange gubbinses atop the wing, under the wing, and even on the tail plane by the looks of things.

 - but alas the section on the aircraft didn't mention any such fittings undergoing tests there.

 

Quick scan of photo captions in the Winsock datafile (Vol.2) though reveals that the upper port wingtip (and presumably tail?) fitting were navigation lamps. An additional water capacity for the supplementary radiator is also mentioned for this version; might this extra capacity be that small tank-like thing up on the middle of the top wing?

 

That wire thing going up and back diagonally from the middle of the wheel axle looks to be the message hook carried by these aircraft for army liason purposes.

 

21 hours ago, hendie said:

Is the fuselage likely to be silver doped?

Looks likely in so far as being described as such in relation to a similar looking scheme in W'sock, as well as interwar painting orders notes at rear, though confirm this independently yourself to be properly satisfied. Grey (dark presumably?) enamel engine/nose colour a candidate (as Dave has mentioned above) already, along with wheels in flight identity colours.

 

I'd recommend you getting a copy of Vol.2 Alan if you can as it has invaluable structure and detail drawings from the original AP,  as well as as detailed rigging diagrams for you to drill even more holes...

2 hours ago, hendie said:

Here's a shot of an anonymous aircrew wearing one.  Oh look, he's eating!  Just look at the size of that piece - must have Tony's veal and ham pie between the doorsteps.

'Flying Officer Donald 'Snakejaws' Pemberton-Jones beats his own personal best time at consuming an F2B radiator in under 90 seconds.'

 

 

 

 

 

 

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22 hours ago, TheBaron said:

Really impressive work on that thar Scarff ring Alan - the visual 'weights' of its various sections contrast extremely convincingly with one another. 👏

 

Thanks Tony.

 

22 hours ago, TheBaron said:

I'd recommend you getting a copy of Vol.2 Alan if you can as it has invaluable structure and detail drawings from the original AP,  as well as as detailed rigging diagrams for you to drill even more holes...

 

All the copies I've come across in the last week are a bit on the expensive side and I've just spent a wad on materials so I think I'll have to pass on that.  I think I have what I need for the most part now.

 

The book arrived from the UK a day early and was unwrapped and ready to read before it had time to acclimatize. 

 

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Let's just say that Mr. Ross did not have a promising future as an author.  The book is essentially him expanding on notes from his diary - mostly about long marches, long voyages by ship, and complaining about having to perform guard duties. He jumps from one topic to another then back again, and repeats himself on numerous occasions throughout the book.  There's very little in relation to aircraft though I did find a few nuggets.

I had hoped that since 28 Sqn was formed from 114 Sqn that they may have pilfered some of their aircraft too, but twas not the case.  They were shipped basically out to India, and had to put their aircraft together in the field, so all the F2B's were brand new.

He did mention at one point about horrible green paint rotting the rubber engine mounts but that's about as technical as it got.

There was one photograph of a 28 Sqn F2B, but the book is printed on that hairy paper, and in conjunction with a 1920's photographic, the photo leaves a lot to be desired.  At least I have a serial number to work with, and I know it's a two bladed propeller, and the long exhaust.

 

P9090009.jpg

 

Mr Ross provides an appendix with some serials numbers of 28 Sqn aircraft, though he didn't capture them all.  

 

Anyways, on to the build again. The engine/cowling was glued in position, this time with styrene cement and not the squidgy TET stuff.

 

P9080002.jpg

 

I figured that I had better get a move on with the struts as I've never attempted these before, neither have I attempted the wood effect with oils.  The base coat was Model Master "Wood" - taking a chance that it was sort of wood colored.

 

P9080003.jpg

 

Once dry, out came the oils and I used a smattering of burnt sienna to try and replicate the grain.  I can't say it was overly successful but at this scale I think it's going to pass.

 

P9080004.jpg

 

Struts have now been left for the oil paint to exhaust its stickiness

 

There were a couple of protuberances on top of the nose (for gun sighting?), but they were a bit soft in detail and just wouldn't clean up properly, so off they came.  A few minutes on the lathe with some brass rod and I had some replacements. Not strictly accurate as I would need a milling machine to do the job right, but the detail is much sharper than the plastic, and I'm happy with it considering where I started from.

 

P9090005.jpg

 

I spotted more greeblies to add - the deck at the gunners position has some reinforcement around the opening, and some not very tidy tape immediately aft of the metal reinforcement.  I cut some styrene strip and glued that around the deck.

A simple job, but I think adds a lot to the overall ambiance. Sadly, I think that is about all the greeblies I am going to find on this particular a/c.

 

P9090010.jpg

 

After that I had a bit of a heart stopping moment.  On checking my references, I spotted a section of rigging that Roden hadn't indicated with their usual pimples.  To make matters worse, this particular piece of rigging wasn't just attached to something - it disappeared into the wing surface!

I pondered how I was going to achieve that trick - contemplating drilling two holes then trying to join them up with a chisel - before remembering I had bought a cheap scribing tool from China which came with 3 or 4 different sized scribing bits.

One of them looked promising, so the wing was duly marked up

 

P9090013.jpg

 

A few minutes later I had a nice neat trench along the wind surface

 

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into which a length or rigging wire will disappear nicely.  Quite pleased with that job I was.

 

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Killing time and procrastinating yet again, I made up a Lego jig to help me position the undercarriage with some degree of hope that it will not look absolute crap

 

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then crapped out and went and did something else entirely.

 

Now take a gander at this.... notice anything?

 

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Both pots claim to be Dark Seagray, both Mr Hobby Aqueous, and both labeled H-75.  Was it just the lids that were wrong?

 

Nope... contents seem remarkably different too.  Wot the heck?

 

VP9090007.jpg

 

I chose the dark one. Who can prove me wrong?

 

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That paint has now been left to harden up before I'll attempt the masking for the dark greenish stuff

 

and wing sticking on and rigging is not far away I'm afraid.

 

 

 

 

 

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Gribblery suitably positioned and very effective,  Hendie  :clap: :clap:

Smart use of the scriber too :worthy:

 

As for the paints, I only noticed the labels say "gray" in lieu of "grey".... :rofl:

 

Ciao 

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On 9/9/2020 at 9:46 PM, hendie said:

Let's just say that Mr. Ross did not have a promising future as an author.  The book is essentially him expanding on notes from his diary - mostly about long marches, long voyages by ship, and complaining about having to perform guard duties. He jumps from one topic to another then back again, and repeats himself on numerous occasions throughout the book.

From a critical perspective, large sections of 'militaria' sit in a publishing realm separate to the actual writing of history, a kind of formulaic sub-journalism in which chronology and anecdote substitute for insight and analysis. When you do get personal accounts with the imaginative depth of a Cecil Lewis or a Hugh Popham, it's all the more powerful the way that their individual experiences act as a magnifying lens upon specific periods in time.

 

Sorry to hear that  this one didn't delivery the necessary.

 

A different Mr. Ross: T.E.Lawrence's - yes him - The Mint is by contrast a sharply-observed biographical account of RAF service life in the 1920s - if you haven't had the pleasure already you can read it online here, though for best results get yourself the 1955 Alden Press version so that you can smell the pages...*

On 9/9/2020 at 9:46 PM, hendie said:

Once dry, out came the oils and I used a smattering of burnt sienna to try and replicate the grain.

The grain counters will be down on you like a ton of bricks!

 

(personally I think they look very much the part, as does the further onset of pigmentation. :thumbsup2:)

 

*which have a peculiar odour of damp airmen in cold hangars on February afternoons.

 

 

 

 

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On 9/10/2020 at 3:03 AM, CedB said:

Nice work hendie - well greeblied! :) 

Pleased to hear the scribing chisels work too - I've got those but have yet to use them in anger.

 

Ced the scribing tool was excellent - nice and sharp and easy to control. Moolah well spent.

 

On 9/11/2020 at 2:09 AM, giemme said:

Gribblery suitably positioned and very effective,  Hendie  :clap: :clap:

Smart use of the scriber too :worthy:

As for the paints, I only noticed the labels say "gray" in lieu of "grey".... :rofl:

Ciao 

 

Thanks G.  

 

On 9/11/2020 at 9:30 AM, TheBaron said:

*which have a peculiar odour of damp airmen in cold hangars on February afternoons.

 

:rofl2:

 

Just a short post this time around.

Lots of time was spent drilling ludicrously small holes. Since this will be (would have been**) my first attempt at rigging, I decided to build an aircraft with double wires. How bloody stupid of me.

To help with that, I made a small jig to aid in at least getting the spacing of the twin holes consistent - basically I cut a small notch in a piece of scrap and the drill was placed in the corners of the notch to locate the holes. Seemed like a good idea at the time.

Then I discovered that not only does this blighter have twin wires, but there is a single wire crossing through them. Oh woopy bloody doo.

 

P9090001.jpg

 

There was no way I could drill these holes once the wings are assembled so I just had to trust the molding and assume that Roden have got the strut locations correct in relation to each other, otherwise the criss-crossing wires are going to interfere with each other and it's going to look all skee-wiff.

As (bad) luck would have it, some of the struts are placed right on the hairy edge of the plastic, so I had to reposition the holes slightly.  I guess I'll find out just how bad this is when it comes to actually rigging it.

 

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Now here's where things go downhill pretty quickly.  Never having built one of these early fliers before I had nothing in the paint store that would do, so ordered some AK WW1 paints - a couple of versions of PC10 and some versions of bleached linen. I even stretched out and order some of their own brand thinners as well. Not particularly cheap when all said and done.

Everything was primed in my usual grey Alclad primer, then it came time to do the PC10. (By this time I had actually built myself up and was looking forward to starting the rigging phase. Well, the paint was a disaster. No matter how I tried I just couldn't get the paint to flow uniformly.

After my first attempt had dried off, I found that a quick wipe with their thinners removed the paint fairly easily

 

P9120004.jpg

 

This is my third attempt at painting the wings - you might be able to see that the paint finish is all blotchy and speckled and this was my best attempt... dammit.

 

P9120005.jpg

 

I had to strip the fuselage back as well and got a bit of collateral damage, but should be reasonably straightforward to repair at this early stage.  The AK paints will be going in the bin I think - a total disaster.

I've since found that Mr Paint do a range of WW1 colors so have ordered them and I'll give it another go when they arrive

 

P9120006.jpg

 

Well, that really put a halt on the proceedings as I can't assemble anything more until I have paint on the airframe.

I then turned my focus to the transfers - I already knew I was going to have to get some custom made for the particular aircraft I am modeling, but when I looked at Roden's transfers more closely I got a bit of a shock.

 

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None of them are usable.  Ink bleed, fuzzy edges and poor registration. I guess I'll be buying some roundels as well then. :doh:

Can any of you learned associates provide some insight as to which roundels I should actually be obtaining?

The aircraft I'm basing this on was photographed in 1920 - WIki-thingy states that Roundel Type A was used up until late 1929 and shows the roundel as a somewhat muted blue

 

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On dark surfaces there was a 2" white band around the blue.

 

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I've had a few searches but am really not sure what I should be looking for. Everything I've found appears to have a much more vibrant blue.  Any suggestions from the hive?

 

Until I have sorted out the paint and the decals this bird is on hold, hopefully not for too long.  In the meantime I have started another build - link coming later

 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, hendie said:

my first attempt at rigging, I decided to build an aircraft with double wires. How bloody stupid of me.

To help with that, I made a small jig to aid in at least getting the spacing of the twin holes consistent -

'Jiggin'  in the riggin'

Jiggin' in the riggin'....'

 

I'll be interested to see how the Mr.Paint performs.

 

As for confirming the roundels....paging

@Heather Kayor @Brandy?

 

 

 

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50187799318_c69943425a_c.jpg

49925870097_1c2e72d823_c.jpg
50348019991_12e0e658ca_c.jpg
Odd your experience with the AK pc10 I find them pretty good and have used them successfully on my Triplane, quadruplane, pup and Snark. I spray them neat from the bottle over ultimate primer. My only niggle  is they don’t brush well and need an undercoat of khaki on any brush touch ups.

Edited by Marklo
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9 hours ago, hendie said:

Then I discovered that not only does this blighter have twin wires, but there is a single wire crossing through them. Oh woopy bloody doo.

 

Sounds like an eye of the needle job! I don't envy you Alan. My Gamecock build is stalled for many reasons, one being I'm totally scared of rigging! I reckon you will sort it though.

 

Superb build so far. I love the old Bristol Fighter.

 

Terry

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Good work on a tricky project, Sir.

 

This is not the ideal subject for a first biplane.

 

If you think you are having fun now wait till you have to sit the fuselage on those little struts rising from the lower wing. I have done it twice with their 1/72 kit, and it was an experience both times.

 

Two notes about color. The P.C. 10 went decidedly brown with sun and wear. The roundel paints, particularly blue and white, also did not stand up well to sun.

 

Great that you've chosen a subject from the old Northwest Frontier.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Just the teeensiest of weensiest of a smidgen of an update for you today folks.

 

I shan't ramble on too much as I'm in a bit of back pain.  I had to plant three trees this weekend, then our first load of firewood arrived for the winter so I had to unload and stack about a cord and a half of wood and I'm now feeling the pain.

 

The good news is that my order of MRP paint arrived.  Even gooder news is that it sprays rally nicely

 

P9260007.jpg

 

The bad news is that I was lazy, and sprayed it directly on top of the AK blotchy mess shown previously.  I looked at it for a while and the effect wasn't entirely displeasing - the MRP even out the blotchiness and it gave a reasonably convincing weathered appearance.

However, since only the upper wing was coated with the AK as a base, I didn't want to risk spraying the rest of the aircraft just in case it all went south.

I tried the AK thinner as a removal agent, but it didn't touch the MRP finish, though I found that liberal application of Mr Hobby Aqueous thinners did a nice job of removing both the MRP finish, and the Alclad primer - with no damage to the plastic of to previously glued parts. (Must file that away for future use)

 

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some time later....

 

P9290003.jpg

 

As previously noted, the Roden decals are all but unusable due to color bleeding and really poor registration.  @Brandy kindly pointed me in the direction of a set of decals, but when I looked at the total cost I baulked. - it was almost the same price as the kit.

In desperation I searched high and low, and smack dab in the middle was ebay.  Say what you like about it but it does come up trumps sometimes. Anyhoos, I found a set of Montex masks designed for the Roden kit for less than $4. Worth a shot says I.

Well, I wasn't that impressed with the masks when they arrived. All of them appear to have undergone some shrinkage and it's hard to tell, but it looks like there are some areas where the mask hasn't been cut through successfully. It's not the sellers fault and I'm going to give them a try anyway.

 

PA050015.jpg

 

I found a blue in my paint store that appears a good match for the 1920 Roundel, along with a Red that's not far away. If all else fails, I can fall back on Ian's suggestion, though I 'd like to try painting the roundels first - something I've never attempted before.

 

In the meantime though, the display case for Pegasus has arrived, so this build is put to the side for a few days and I'm headed over to the train station.

 

 

 

 

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It's been a little while since I got to this build.  I did get some work done today though not much.

 

I had tidied up the wings after the bodged AK spray job and sprayed white in preparation for painting the roundels. Amazingly in my paint stores I had colors that matched the 1920's roundel colors quite accurately. 

However, when it came to applying the Montex masks it all went pear shaped.  The masks were useless. They appear to have shrunk since being cut and there was no way I could get the sections of the masks to align properly. 

 

PA080005.jpg

 

I have now ordered the Pheon decals as per @brandy's suggestion.

Since I cannot now paint the roundels there was nothing stopping me from applying the doped linen to the underside of the wings

 

PA110021.jpg

 

I also gave the fuselage a coat of PC10

 

PA110022.jpg

 

I have to admit to being impressed with the MRP paint. It sprays very nicely indeed.

 

PA110020.jpg

 

There! Told you there wasn't much of an update didn't I?

 

Gloss coat next methinks though it may be a little while before I get to this again - The Audax is beckoning as is the train

 

 

 

 

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Sorry to hear about the mask issue, but going by reputation I'm sure you'll have no problems with Rowan's decals.

She's looking excellent with some colour on, too!

 

Ian

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As the boys say here, (paraphrasing for quickness) she is looking very well in PC thingy H

 

And what a bugger about the masks, maybe you need a Ced type cutter

 

(I would probably use my DSPIAE but my version isnt as accurate as Tommo's with a built in scale size checker, but wow, does it cut out rings in plastic)

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 10/11/2020 at 5:06 PM, bigbadbadge said:

Fuselage looks great,  shame about the mask issue though.  

 

yeah, I was actually looking forward to painting the roundels. Another time I guess.

 

On 10/12/2020 at 4:18 AM, Hamden said:

Your fuselage looks stunning with its war paint on

  Stay safe         Roger

 

thanks Roger

 

On 10/12/2020 at 4:27 AM, CedB said:

Seconded! :) 

 

ta Ced

 

On 10/12/2020 at 12:12 PM, Brandy said:

Sorry to hear about the mask issue, but going by reputation I'm sure you'll have no problems with Rowan's decals.

She's looking excellent with some colour on, too!

Ian

 

thanks Ian.  You were right about the decals

 

On 10/13/2020 at 4:45 AM, perdu said:

As the boys say here, (paraphrasing for quickness) she is looking very well in PC thingy H

And what a bugger about the masks, maybe you need a Ced type cutter

(I would probably use my DSPIAE but my version isnt as accurate as Tommo's with a built in scale size checker, but wow, does it cut out rings in plastic)

 

thanks Bill.  I have the cutter here, but the laptop I had the software on died and I couldn't retrieve the licence - and the company has now gone out of business. I'm just too tight-fisted to invest $50 in another piece of software fr something I am going to use so rarely.

 

When I painted the fuselage the other week I did not pay enough attention to the references, and painted the underside PC10 also,  Wrong!

Time to correct that. Taking no chances for over-spray getting through, I masked the fuselage ready for the CDL. Hey, I'm getting good at this biplane thingamabob - look at me throwing phrases like PC10 and CDL around like I knew what I was talking about.

 

PA160004.jpg

 

It's impossible to see here, but I used 0.4 mm Aizu tape along the bottom edge to leave a thin PC10 line intact - reference photos show the side "skin" wrapping around the underside slightly.  The Aizu worked flawlessly as it always does.

 

PA160005.jpg

 

That wraparound is also visible on the wing undersides, so Aizu in action again.  I find that it works nicely for bends if you just take your time and it's possible to stretch the tape slightly to make it conform to bends such as this.  At one point I tried cutting thin strips of Tamiya, but the Aizu must have a stronger adhesive backing as the Tamiya strips just kept on moving whereas the Aizu stays in place nicely.

 

PA160006.jpg

 

Proof of the pudding.

 

PA170009.jpg

 

The struts were finally finished off. Each end got a coat of "aged white" which was a nice yellowish color and matched the references very well.  I even managed to paint the brass tubes from the pitot on the spar without making too much of a mess.

 

PA170012.jpg

 

Wheels were masked up (after painting the centers with CDL) by punching out a disc of tape. The punch I had was slightly larger in diameter but that was easily sorted by cutting a rough circle out of the disc center then slicing through the remaining donut. That allowed me to adjust the donut around the circumference of the wheel as the tape was being applied. 

 

PA180015.jpg

 

Fill in the remaining CDL bits with tape scraps

 

PA180016.jpg

 

Then forget to take a photo of the wheels after they're painted. Idiot!

In my naivety, thinking I was approaching something beginning with rigging, I painted the aluminum treadplates on the lower wing - getting aluminum paint on my finger in the process and transferring said splodge onto the wing surface. 

Being the complete numptie that I am, I grabbed a rag, damped it with IPA and tried to wipe away the aluminum splodge.  Needless to say it worked - taking the PC10 with it in the process.  :doh:

I know better. I know I know better, but why I keep doing these things is beyond me.   Anyhoos, the offending area was micro-meshed back and resprayed without too much trouble. It would have been much easier not to have done that in the first place though.

 

PA170011.jpg

 

With all the days drama over, I got out the Lego and made a basic jig, ready to start assembling this weird monster.  The undercarriage was the first thing on... very tenderly.  I only glued the two top pins as I wanted to get the fuselage in place before I commit to anything, but needed something to hold the undercarriage in place while I was doing that.

 

PA180013.jpg

 

Then the gods smiled on me.  The Decals from Pheon arrived. Not just decals though.

Look at all the goodies here.... Clockwise from top left:  The actual decal sheet, then three, yes three sheets on good quality card with various schemes. The cards are frame worthy, the quality is that good. Then, bottom right is an adhesive sheet with an assembly jig (for Roden & Eduard F2b's) printed on it, to the left of that, an assembly diagram of the jig, then finally, an 8 page booklet on the F2b and the schemes included.

 

PA190017.jpg

 

Wow!  I was not expecting that.

To be honest, when I checked the website and saw the price of the decal sheet, I was a bit peeved - thinking it was somewhat overpriced.  There was no mention of all the other stuff that came along for the ride.  Had I known that, particularly about the jig, I would have had no hesitation whatsoever in ordering. This is top notch stuff.  It really should be mentioned and highlighted on the website.  The assembly jig alone is worth buying even if you're not interested in these schemes.

 

A short while later, the sticky sheet stuck on some 1.5 mm styrene and we have the beginnings of a jig

 

PA190019.jpg

 

Assembled....

 

PA200020.jpg

 

Lovely jubbley

 

PA200021.jpg

 

Still can't get to the rigging just yet. - I keep finding other jobs that need done first, such as the leather padding on the coaming (Aizu again)

 

PA220022.jpg

 

This time just brush painted with red oxide. I'll semi-gloss it later to give it a more leathery look

 

PA220023.jpg

 

Then realized that these biplane thingies are very weird - you have to apply transfers before you can assemble the thing.

Ah... I should point out that I have changed my intended target.  Initially I was going to model H1499, but when I examined the (only) photo I realized that I could not see any code letter present. Contemporary photos show F2b's with code letters, and even other 28 Sqn F2b's were coded, as this shot of J6769 clearly shows. Actually, this shot is from 1923, 3 years later than the shot of H1499, so it looks like code letters were introduced sometime after the shot of H1499 was taken.

The main point being, that I thought just having H1499 on the sides would look a bit bland, and  that having a code letter adds a bit of interest, and I like A's

 

J6769.jpg

 

Transfers begin... 

 

PA220024.jpg

 

The roundels are a bit oversized compared to the pic, but these were the smallest roundels on the sheet - so I used them.  The white "A" came from a gift that Bill, @perdu provided some time back for one of my Wessex builds - thanks Bill!

In my decal stash I found an Xtradecal sheet of white letters - the font style was very similar, but slightly larger than what was needed, but in the interests of actually finishing a build, I soldiered on and stuck them in place.  There's still some decals that I'll need to get made, but this lot will at least let me get to the rigging stage before Xmas.

 

PA220025.jpg

 

Transfers stuck on the roof.

 

PA220031.jpg

 

Gallons of micro-stick-thing-down-glop has been added and allowed to saturate the decal. In hindsight I probably should not have separated the ailerons from the wings and this would have been easier.  However, I am where I am.

I'm going to leave the decals to set overnight then at the next session, I shall take a fresh blade and cut between the ailerons and wings, then microstick the floppy bits down

 

PA220032.jpg

 

I'm still impressed with that jig.  

 

until next time 

 

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9 minutes ago, Terry1954 said:

Excellent progress, and that jig looks like a superb aid. Other manufacturers should take note!

 

Really starting to look the part now.

 

Terry

 

Seconded!

 

  Stay safe         Roger

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