Egyptian MiG 21's

[Red Dog]

Just doing a bit of research for a future project, namely Eduard's 1/48 MiG 21 in Egyptian service. So many cool camo schemes.

 

Questions

The Nile Valley camo scheme - Was it one distinct scheme/pattern or was it varied ie different patterns and different colours? I ask because I've come across quite a few different patterns that have been called Nile Valley (as well as just Nile). Some references have also stated them as 'early Nile scheme', so did the scheme differ at different stages through the service with the Egyptian Air Force?

 

Did this scheme ever exist as Nile as has been stated below?

This was my number 1 until I did a bit of research and could not find a single photo of a plane in this camo scheme (plenty in just plain brown wrap around stripes but not with the Blue-Grey outline).

Colours - Orangy Sand (as opposed to the more yellowy sand of the a/c above it on same page) with large Dark Chocolate Brown stripes outlined in Blue-Grey.

By all means correct me if I'm calling out incorrect colours. Exact colours aren't a major concern as I like to mix my own colours to match what I see in pics and profiles, but is that Blue-Grey shade correct?

 

Again in profile same a/c. More of a yellow sand than the orange sand of above .

and now in model form but with green stripes and back to the orange sand. I believe this scheme to be from Fujimi instructions.

 

 

Next up

Colors - Sand with large Dark Green (or is that Dark Brown?) stripes outlined with Olive Green

And in real life below different a/c and different application, but similar camo scheme. Dark Green or Dark Brown?

 

 

Next

Colours - Possibly same as above although the dark patches definitely look more Dark Brown than Dark Green.

And in real life. Am really staring to like like this one now. Shame I'm only doing one Egyptian Fishbed.

 

So was the 'Nile Valley' camo scheme an ever evolving scheme through its service or are these schemes just different for different time frames?

Did the first scheme exist?

Is the second scheme Dark Green with Olive Green outline or Dark Brown with Olive Green outline.

 

My research has turned up all sorts of different camo application and colours on these Egyptian Fishbeds. Good luck to anyone who can keep track of and catalogue them.

Cheers all for any info your willing to share.

 

 

[exdraken]

Great project!

I would go by photos only... and take care which variant you build!

You last phitos also seems a bit strange in lighting...I would assue it is the same colors as the second to last...but it is a 2nd gen. PFS!

 

Do you hapoen to gave the  Arab MiGs series of books? A lot is in there, but remember, Egypt was constantly at war with Israel until the mud 70ies. With a lot if attrition and replacement airframes. Painting them in Nile ( 3 tone upper camo) was done locally...

[Blimpyboy]

 

Egyptian camouflage is pretty groovy - I also like the version with the bright orange panels (as far as that can be called 'camouflage'...)

 

Some good photos to help your cause here:

http://makettinfo.hu/index.php?jobb=forum/forszoveg.php&forumID=217&first=400&off_visible=1&hash=

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry if it's too much spam!

 

 

 

[Red Dog]

Thanks exdraken.

I have a bis, PF, PFM and an R all Eduard and a UM from Trumpeter, so plenty of options, will keep looking to see what scheme will match certain airframes.

Still getting an eye for the differences in each model.

 

Cool shots, thanks Blimpyboy.

Yeah I do like the Orange panels too but I'm trying to get it down to one camo scheme to do.

 

 

[Troy Smith]

8 hours ago, Red Dog said:

Some references have also stated them as 'early Nile scheme', so did the scheme differ at different stages through the service with the Egyptian Air Force?

Basically yes.  There is some controversial opinions on the colours used by the author of the Arab MIGs books,  they also go into the schemes, as much as any source does. 

I'll see if I can dig out some links later.

[Blimpyboy]

12 minutes ago, Red Dog said:

I'm trying to get it down to one camo scheme to do.

 

Go on, buy another one, you know you want to... 

 

Edited August 18, 2020 by Blimpyboy

[Red Dog]

Cheers Troy, much appreciated.

 

Crikey Blimpyboy, I've already got 5 MiG 21's in the stash, but with so many interesting camo schemes not to mention the NMF's I could be easily led astray.

 

[71chally]

I remember using a Humbrol dark purple for the dark part of that scheme, probably completely wrong but it did look good!

[exdraken]

2 hours ago, Red Dog said:

I have a bis, PF, PFM and an R all Eduard and a UM from Trumpeter, so plenty of options, will keep looking to see what scheme will match certain airframes.

Still getting an eye for the differences in each model.

 

Hi, it is basically down to the canopy and fin for those you have (apart form the two seater obviously)

the F-13, PF have front opening/ hinged single part canopies (no separate frame for a "front" canopy ) the PFM,  R onward (R, M(F, S) and bis) have a 2-part side hinged canopy)

(the F-13 and) PF(S) have a smaller chord fin, PFM onward it is the broader fin.

to distinguish the later variants it is down to spine, cannons and wing pylons.... 

- strange looking, curvy spine that tapers heavily around its center than your are looking at a PFM, single wing pylon

 

very simplified.... but works for visual ID most of the time....

 

another nice and rel. big and clear photo of one:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EOGfMmwW4AAiXnS?format=jpg&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EOGfMnNXkAAXS3B?format=jpg&name=large

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Troy Smith]

5 hours ago, Red Dog said:

I have a bis, PF, PFM and an R all Eduard and a UM from Trumpeter, so plenty of options, will keep looking to see what scheme will match certain airframes.

Still getting an eye for the differences in each model.

 

the more dedicated/obsessive MiG nuts are dismissive of the Trumpeter kits.  Overall shape is OK, the details are mostly off. Which is barmy as they have them to crawl over...

 

Regarding the MiG-21 variants, this is very handy

http://www.mig-21.de/english/technicaldataversions.htm

 

Quote

Versions of the MiG-21

 

About 20 main and sub versions of the MiG-21 can be divided into four generations. In the following the main features of the several generations are shown. The - often wrong designated - Western code names are subject to a separate list.

 

First Generation

Daylight interceptor without radar, armed with guns (one or two 30mm NR-30 respectively), guided or unguided missiles on two wing pylons.

MiG-21F (Изделие = product 65)

MiG-21F (72)

MiG-21F-13 (74)

MiG-21F-13 (S-106, built under licence in Czechoslovakia)

 

 

Second Generation

Radar equipped all-weather interceptor, armed with missiles on two wing pylons only, some versions with external GP-9 gun pod (one 23mm two-barrel gun GSh-23).

MiG-21PF (76)

MiG-21FL (77)

MiG-21FL (77, built under licence in India)

MiG-21PFS (94)

MiG-21PFM (94A)

MiG-21PFM (94N)

 

 

Third Generation

All-weather interceptor and reconnaissance aircraft with gun and missile (on four wing pylons) armament (one 23mm gun GSh-23, MiG-21S with GP-9 gun pod, MiG-21R with recce pod instead of the gun).

MiG-21R (94R, 03)

MiG-21RF (94R)

MiG-21S (95)

MiG-21SM (15)

MiG-21M (88, built under licence in India)

MiG-21M (96)

MiG-21MF (96A)

MiG-21MT (96B)

MiG-21MF (96F)

MiG-21MF-75 (63)

MiG-21SMT (50)

MiG-21ST (50bis)

 

 

Fourth Generation

All-weather interceptor with improved air combat performances at low and medium altitudes, engine and airframe completely redesigned.

MiG-21bis LAZUR (75A*)

MiG-21bis SAU (75B*)

MiG-21bis (75, built under licence in India)

 

 

It should be noted, Eduard, in their infinite "wisdom"   have (apparently because the Indian MiG-21 special didn't sell) failed to make a specific FL boxing,  which is basically a PF with a PFM fin.

In 1/48th this is easy enough,  just use the PFM fin/spine sprue on the PF kit (the only time I ordered direct off Edaurd when they offered free post, I asked for, and was supplied with a PFM fin/spine sprue)

I mention this quite often as the FL was used OPERATIONALLY by both the Indian AF and the Arab airforces.

If/when Eduard do a MiG-21 F-13 kit, maybe they will do a Arab AF special.

 

Colours. OK.

Quote

Related to this is the following fact: it is such 'enthusiasts' - 'modellers' - that we can thank for 'discovering' that for most of the 20th Century, the Soviet Union was using the so-called 'British Standard 381C' in production of its military-related paints. Definitely, this 'BS381C', not some 'own' tables, not the German RAL, or the US Federal Standard.

Why is this 'known' or anything like 'sure'?

That's thanks to several former employees of the Israeli Aircraft Industries. The gents in question have had the opportunity to compare various colour tables (US 'FS', 'BS381C' etc.) with original colours applied on various MiG-21s that were overhauled by the IAI in the 1990s. That's why gents (and modellers) like Yoav Efrati for example (guess, many here might know him for his fantastic features on Israeli combat aircraft in various modeller magazines), were extremely helpful in preparation of - very precise - colour references that one can meanwhile find in books like the Arab MiGs and African MiGs series.

 

I also find the idea that Arab airforces used BS381C colours a stretch of the imagination,  though perhaps the Egyptians had a British fan deck and specfied those.

 

Anyway,  FWIW, Tom Cooper says these were used.

(I will edit in the rest listed in a mo) 

undersides

BS381C 697 Light admiralty grey

https://www.e-paint.co.uk/Lab_values.asp?cRange=BS 381C&cRef=BS381C 697

 

BS381C 388

Beige

 

BS381C 283

Aircraft grey green

 

BS381C 298

Olive drab (Cooper calls this Black Green)

 

BS381C 437 Very Dark Drab (Copper calls this Olive Drab)

 

I don't know.  I have RAL and FS595 fan decks, it's hard making visual matches,  I mention this BS381C 'match'  as a Arab MiG researcher  says this.

 

HTH

 

 

 

[Hook]

7 hours ago, Blimpyboy said:

Egyptian camouflage is pretty groovy

It sure is! Pic #2 / 8 show the Soviet factory applied scheme, by the way.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre

[RidgeRunner]

@BlimpyboyI’d say that images 2 & 5 represent the camo colours in question most accurately. 
 

Martin

[Troy Smith]

17 minutes ago, RidgeRunner said:

I’d say that photos/images 2 & 5 represent the Camo colourS most accurately. 
 

I would suggest using edit, and just leaving the two images in question though. 

 

Also, the quote has 3 separate schemes

This is the Nile valley,  and from what I know the best 'match' to the suggested colours

 

 

This is a separate scheme, which I think is what this refer's too

2 hours ago, Hook said:

It sure is! Pic #2 / 8 show the Soviet factory applied scheme, by the way.

 

 

and this is an 80's era scheme

 

I don not claim an level of great knowledge on this matter,  just saying what my reading of Arab MiG's books profiles says.

HTH

[Red Dog]

Brilliant thanks Troy, I have seen that MiG 21 version run through before but I'll make sure I get a copy of it, very useful info.

 

Going to keep pestering you though.

Still trying to clear up what Nile Valley camo really is.

Is it Sand, Green & Brown or Sand and 2 Greens (hard to tell from most pics) The darker shade does seem to have an RLM 81 Brown Violet shade about it.

Is it a style of camo like that of the aircraft below - Large splotches outlined with another colour?

 

 

This one has the colours reversed.

 

What about these variations? Says the first a/c has Nile Valley, but with two definite Greens.

 

Maybe I'm delving too deep but its just something that's staring at me and mocking me because there seems to be no clear answer - that I can see anyway.

Cheers

[Blimpyboy]

On 8/19/2020 at 7:12 PM, Red Dog said:

 

 

I did manage to find an image of a MiG-21 with this camouflage scheme (minus eagle head artwork) plus the orange ID panels. I'll try and get it up here.

It's similar to the (I think) Eduard box art:

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Blimpyboy

[Blimpyboy]

I found the scheme, then noticed it was fitted with AIM-9s!

 

 

 

 

Plus, one with nose art (I can't tell the variant, 'though).

Edited August 25, 2020 by Blimpyboy

[Gremlin]

This is the Nile Valley camo,

the only thing you must know is NEVER but NEVER GRAY/GREY, all scheme with gray on Egyptian MiGs are wrong...discard at once.

 

 

All Egyptian MiGs was painted with Car Paints, so no federal standard are 100% accurate

 

From Egyptian friend that work with them (MiGs) these are the reference colours:

 

Now for the paint I used:
Upper Surfaces:
Pollyscale RLM68 Light olive green F505310
Pollyscale RLM71 Dark green F505056
Gunze Radome H318

Lower Surfaces:
Gunze RLM Light blue H67

 

Hope its worth for you

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

 

[VolkerR.]

On 25/08/2020 at 12:51, Blimpyboy said:

 

I did manage to find an image of a MiG-21 with this camouflage scheme (minus eagle head artwork) plus the orange ID panels. I'll try and get it up here.

It's similar to the (I think) Eduard box art:

 

I have just started to build Eduard`s Mig21 MF of the above boxing. I like the "nile valley" camo scheme, but I do not like the orange identification markings. I wonder if the aircraft was in service before without them. Could I build this egyptian version as in Eduard`s kit, but without the orange markings?

 

Volker

[exdraken]

4 hours ago, VolkerR. said:

I have just started to build Eduard`s Mig21 MF of the above boxing. I like the "nile valley" camo scheme, but I do not like the orange identification markings. I wonder if the aircraft was in service before without them. Could I build this egyptian version as in Eduard`s kit, but without the orange markings?

 

Volker

Of course, plenty of photos of MFs without the orange markings in this thread

[Hobo]

On 8/17/2020 at 7:30 PM, Red Dog said:

 

 

 

 

 

Could you please tell me what book that is? I would very much appreciate it. Try these two links:

https://www.google.com.eg/search?q=مصر+ميج-21&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjE99Hc97vvAhWHAjQIHXQrBIQQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=مصر+ميج-21&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQA1D9igNY_YoDYP-OA2gAcAB4AIABUYgBUZIBATGYAQCgAQGqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZ8ABAQ&sclient=img&ei=YGBUYMTHDoeF0PEP9NaQoAg&bih=729&biw=1218

 

https://www.google.com.eg/search?source=univ&tbm=isch&q=egypt+mig-21&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjr1ILX97vvAhXBGTQIHZDuB6AQjJkEegQICRAB&biw=1218&bih=729

[Red Dog]

Histoire & Collections, Planes and Pilots No.12. MiG 21 Fishbed (1955-2010) by Gerard Paloque

 

 

Great reference. Goes through all the users of the MiG 21 with a number of schemes that they wore with each nations Air Force.

Not sure on accuracy, they do give a sqn and time when the plane wore that particular scheme but there are no references or sources as to where the artist got the info to paint each profile. Hence questions being posted here on BM.

Cheers

[RAGATIGER]

Hi there

 

Well really I don't remember reading about Egyptian or Iraki MiG-21 armed with Matra 550 Magic AIM

 

So if someone has a photo please post it here

 

Regards

 

Armando 

[exdraken]

12 hours ago, RAGATIGER said:

Hi there

 

Well really I don't remember reading about Egyptian or Iraki MiG-21 armed with Matra 550 Magic AIM

 

So if someone has a photo please post it here

 

Regards

 

Armando 

why exactly you think they were?

 

you can have that for India or Romania:

https://www.oocities.org/hotsprings/2839/mig21.html

 

 

 

Egypt and any weapons is of course always hard to find

 

both countries should have had Magic 1 missiles for their resective Mirage fleets (III/ 5 for Egypt, F1 for Iraq)

there is of course also the chance that those are Chinese PL-7 missiles (R550 lookalikes....)

 

https://www.defencetalk.com/military/photos/iranian-f-7n.19847/

[Corsairfoxfouruncle]

My apologies on resurrecting this thread, If I wanted to do an Egyptian Mig-21MF in the Nile scheme what kind of ordnance would it normally be seen with in the mid 70’s ?

 

Second question here I know the Egyptian A.F. had standard 21R’s but most were destroyed during the 1973 war. The later Egyptian MF’s that replaced those had a built in recon ability and were listed as RF’s. Are there any photo’s of a standard Egyptian MF using the R-V recon pod of the MiG-21R I cant find any ? I was going to do a Polish MiG-21R but don't really want a another NMF build so am thinking of switching to Egyptian. If it helps other than the Polish A.F., I have decals for E.German, Czech, Egyptian, and Iraqi aircraft. So if Anyone has any photo’s of camouflaged recon birds from these air forces please feel free to help. 
 

Dennis

[Hook]

Most pics in my references show a rather standard combination of either 2 or 4 R-3S Atolls with wing and / or centreline fuel tanks for that timeframe.

 

Cheers,

 

Andre