B-18 Bolo - Pacific question

[TISO]

I'm doing a bit of research on USAAF aircraft in Philippines, Australia and NEI (one of my pet projects)

I have question on colors of these B-18's especialy on the undersides. After seeing a couple of pics on link below, i'm not shure about underside color of these planes (before I was shure it was neutral grey) but now i think it was lighter as on some of  the pic's contrast is rather strong and quite comparable to photos taken of ASW B-18's flying in Panama that were supposed to have had very light underside colors.

 

What do you think?

Do my eyes decive me or .....?

 

OK basis for my doubts in neutral grey at least on some planes:

On this excellent site there a few good pics of B-18 in Australia:

 http://www.goodall.com.au/australian-aviation/ww2-transport-callsigns-1/ww2transportcallsigns-1.html

 

In the B-17 section the pic captioned : LB-30 Liberator AL570, B-17 and B-18 at Perth WA after evacuation flights from Java early March 1942 The Liberator became freighter VHCBL

Pic IMHO shows a rather suspiciously light color on the lower surfaces comparing to B-24 and B-17. Same goes for a B-17C a few pic's above that still caries original serial number 2072 on tail captioned:  B-17C 402072 in Australia on 22 October 1942. It was used as a troop transport with callsign VHCBA

 

Way down in the article in section on B-18 and B-10 (WH-3) is a pic captioned: B-18 37-16 with nose art at Parafield early 1942 while being operated by USAAC 22Troop Carrier Squadron.

Here plane still carries yellow US number on the tail and the underside colors are also rather light as is on the next photo (where iit already carries Ozzie registration) captioned: B-18 VHCWB at Iron Range strip on Cape York Peninsula Queensland 1942

 

Later in 1943 VH-CWB now renamed to "Goober Dust" shows darker undersides.

 

Under them a pic captioned Another unidentified ex Philippines B-18 was this aircraft with "6" on tail and nose, at Essendon early 1942

Shows darker underside colors.

 

 

Edited August 15, 2020 by TISO

[Ed Russell]

9 minutes ago, TISO said:

(where it already carries (Australian) registration) captioned: B-18 VHCWB

These were not civil registrations, which are usually rendered VH - XXX, but radio call signs of the Allied Directorate of Air Transport.

https://www.ozatwar.com/usaaf/dat.htm

This article mentions the B-18s and their origins. Given the state of the war and the state of the B-18s repainting seems unlikely. Comparing those B-18 pictures on Geoff Goodall's site to other aircraft known to have NG undersides I would be painting mine Neutral Gray. Like many other colours, there seems to be a range of acceptable shades for Neutral Gray.

[72modeler]

Just a thought- looking at the two photos of C-39 VH-CCH, in the first photo compare the light tone of the undersurface color and the tone of the national insignia compared to the  second photo; same airplane and most likely the same colors, but perhaps a different film/filter used? I, too would suggest the underside color was most likely neutral grey, especially considering how hectic things were at that time and how little time and resources might have been available for a major repaint.

Mike

[Ed Russell]

Note in the three photos of VHCCH the markings police have removed the hyphen in the middle photo but it has re-appeared in the third one!

That is, assuming it is the same aircraft. Note that the text indicates there were two Dakotas with the VHCCH call sign.

 

CCH (1
Douglas C-392089
38-532
shipped ex US, assembled by CAC Fishermans Bend Vic 4.42,
Down and Go, to ANA 6.43, returned to USAAF 4.5.44

CCH (2
Douglas C-476172
41-38713
Oregon Caveman No.1, to RAAF 3.43 as A30-15, A65-1

 

I agree about multiple variations of Neutral Gray.

[Blimpyboy]

 

I couldn't begin to try and identify colours from this photo, but I hope it's helpful (from http://www.goodall.com.au/australian-aviation/dornier-24/dornierDo24.html):

 

Webpage caption reads "US Army Air Corps B-17, B-24 and B-18 at Maylands Aerodrome, Perth a few days after the Broome attack.
They had escaped the Philippines via NEI and missed the Broome raid (Geoff Goodall collection)".

 

Edited August 16, 2020 by Blimpyboy

[Troy Smith]

12 hours ago, TISO said:

I'm doing a bit of research on USAAF aircraft in Philippines, Australia and NEI (one of my pet projects)

I have question on colors of these B-18's especialy on the undersides. After seeing a couple of pics on link below, i'm not shure about underside color of these planes (before I was shure it was neutral grey) but now i think it was lighter as on some of  the pic's contrast is rather strong and quite comparable to photos taken of ASW B-18's flying in Panama that were supposed to have had very light underside colors.

I'd suggest a @Dana Bell  maybe a good idea.

 

Not seen him post in a while but @Peter Boer  IIRC wrote the book on NEI aircraft.

[72modeler]

@Blimpyboy,

 

An incredible post! What a horrible time for the Allied airmen and sailors as the IJA and IJN were running amok in the early days of 1942! One can only imagine the bravery and desperation as they fought to patch airplanes together and to try to delay the inevitable as they attempted to evacuate the civilians caught in the middle. Those NEI airmen and ground crews were so brave and resourceful, and the more I read about their exploits in accounts like the Goodall one you posted, the  more I am astounded by the sacrifices made by of all the allied personnel, but especially the Dutch airmen and sailors. Thanks so much for posting the account.

Mike

[JWM]

Before it was camouflaged from top the B-18 were overall NMF, so why the bottom cannot be just unpainted alu?

Regards

J-W

 

[TISO]

5 hours ago, Blimpyboy said:

 

I couldn't begin to try and identify colours from this photo, but I hope it's helpful (from http://www.goodall.com.au/australian-aviation/dornier-24/dornierDo24.html):

 

 

Webpage caption reads "US Army Air Corps B-17, B-24 and B-18 at Maylands Aerodrome, Perth a few days after the Broome attack.
They had escaped the Philippines via NEI and missed the Broome raid (Geoff Goodall collection)".

 

That is the first photo i mentioned. it is interesting to compare the 3 aircraft and B-18 looks decidely lighter on undersides.

Also interesting comparison is a VH-CWB at diffrent times. It seems that it must have been repainted at some point even if late pic of the  "Gobber Dust" looks decidely patchy on upper surfaces and undersides look much darker. Compare it to other stuff on the pic's like uniforms and markings (white stars and emblem on the nose and yellow serial number on first pic). I was thinking about hastily applied camo with undersides left in NMF but too me it looks to matt. Also interesing to mention is camo provided by Special Hobby for yellow 7 that is patchy upper side of OD, NG, Dk Green and NG underside

 

B-18 37-16 with nose art at Parafield early 1942 while being operated by USAAC 22Troop Carrier Squadron.
Photo by Alan Betteridge via Civil Aviation Historical Society

 

B-18 VHCWB at Iron Range strip on Cape York Peninsula Queensland 1942.     Bob Livingstone collection

 

General Connell's B-18 VHCWB over Brisbane 1943, nose art "Gober Dust".    Bob Livingstone collection

 

This view of VHCWB "Goober Dust", probably at Townsville, appeared in the book "The 81st ADG".
courtesy David Vincent

 

this one looks much darker on the undersides comparing the colour to yellow No 6 and white star also rudder seem to have NMF where it would interact with fixed tail surface:

 Another unidentified ex Philippines B-18 was this aircraft with "6" on tail and nose, at Essendon early 1942.
Ron Larsen collection, Civil Aviation Historical Society

 

 

 

[TISO]

Also interesting to compare are couple pic's of unfortunate B-17C  40-2072 later callsign VH-CBA.

Source: http://www.goodall.com.au/australian-aviation/ww2-transport-callsigns-1/ww2transportcallsigns-1.html

 

First pic shows very light undersides with intereting demarcation and the second shows much darker undersides

B-17C 402072 in Australia on 22 October 1942. It was used as a troop transport with callsign VHCBA

 

B-17C VHCBA at Bankstown, Sydney

 

 

 

[jimmaas]

Those very light undersurfaces look very much like the white 'Sea Search' undersurfaces used by the AAF, particularly in the Caribbean.  The undulating separation line in the B-18 in the first photo like the pattern used for the 'Sea Search' aircraft (including P-39's and P-40C's, as well as multi-engined types).  Next question, of course, is how/why they were transferred to the SWPA.

[TISO]

34 minutes ago, jimmaas said:

Those very light undersurfaces look very much like the white 'Sea Search' undersurfaces used by the AAF, particularly in the Caribbean.  The undulating separation line in the B-18 in the first photo like the pattern used for the 'Sea Search' aircraft (including P-39's and P-40C's, as well as multi-engined types).  Next question, of course, is how/why they were transferred to the SWPA.

B-18 37-16 (VH-CWB) was part of 19 BG on Phillipines which was being reequiped with B-17 at the time

from: http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1930.html

 37-16 (19th BG) escaped to Australia, operated as VH-CWB by 21st TCS Jan-Sep 1942

 

IMHO painting those plane in Phillipines just as war was aproaching was one of those things where "anything goes". Using what was at hand at the time. Some were painted properly (like B-18 no.6 or ex PAA Beech 18 pictured in Amberly january 1942), some were painted badly (some P-35 were flaking badly), some partialy and some not at all (some B-17 were still in NMF).

What color could be used in this case?

Edited August 16, 2020 by TISO

[Ed Russell]

22 hours ago, Ed Russell said:

These were not civil registrations, which are usually rendered VH - XXX, but radio call signs of the Allied Directorate of Air Transport.

As above VH-CWB (incorrect) VHCWB (correct) Just letting you know.  And yes, sometimes painted incorrectly on planes.

[Blimpyboy]

12 hours ago, jimmaas said:

Those very light undersurfaces look very much like the white 'Sea Search' undersurfaces used by the AAF, particularly in the Caribbean.

 

12 hours ago, TISO said:

IMHO painting those plane in Phillipines just as war was aproaching was one of those things where "anything goes".

 

I was wondering the same thing!

 

Is it possible that B-18s were pressed into service immediately prior to Dec 8 as ASW/MARSUR aircraft. I would imagine that, given the archipelagic nature of the Philippines, that the US forces would want all the maritime surveillance they could get their hands on.

Also, given the non/semi-official coloration used on many Philippines-based aircraft, could it have been a case of whatever helped hide it from surface vessels and subs?

 

When did the Sea Search scheme come into being?

Edited August 17, 2020 by Blimpyboy

[72modeler]

5 hours ago, Blimpyboy said:

When did the Sea Search scheme come into being?

According to Dana Bell's Air Force Colors, volume 2, trials of s sea search scheme began in 1942, with neutral grey uppers and oyster white (a mixture of insignia white and black) being the most effective; however, it appears that in February, 1943, the scheme of OD uppers and white lowers was adopted, as it involved less painting over existing factory finishes and saved weight.

Mike

[Blimpyboy]

 

This aircraft was based in Puerto Rico, but may offer some insights (from http://rameyafb.net/war-years/ - caption reads B-18 BOLO TAKING OFF ON A MARITIME PATROL AT BORINQUEN FIELD 1942)

 

 

 

 

And these were based in Dutch Guyana at the same time (from http://www.sixtant.net/2011/artigos.php?cat=brazilian-air-force&sub=fab&tag=10)douglas-b-18-bolo - caption reads: B-18 of the 99th Bombardment Squadron stationed at Zandery Airfield, Dutch Guyana. The planes are in formation over the Caribbean 1942.)

 

 

 

Trinidad, 1942

 

 

Edited September 2, 2020 by Blimpyboy

[tonyot]

Re the VH Prefix radio callsigns,..... this is a great web page and there are some nice B-18`s on it too. For what it is worth,... I think that the very light colour seen on some B-18`s, DC-2/3`s, Lodestars etc in the Pacific is a very pale blue or off white colour,..... it could also be mixed from US Navy paint colour`s too maybe?  

 

http://www.goodall.com.au/australian-aviation/ww2-transport-callsigns-1/ww2transportcallsigns-1.html

Edited September 2, 2020 by tonyot

[Graham Boak]

There does seem to be some obsession in the hobby with suggesting that apparently odd-ball colours must have been mixed.  In some case this may be true, but in this case isn't a much likelier colour RAF Sky Blue?  Or, perhaps even more likely in the circumstances, RAAF Sky Blue?  

[tonyot]

5 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

There does seem to be some obsession in the hobby with suggesting that apparently odd-ball colours must have been mixed.  In some case this may be true, but in this case isn't a much likelier colour RAF Sky Blue?  Or, perhaps even more likely in the circumstances, RAAF Sky Blue?  

If that is aimed at me,....... I said COULD & MAYBE,..... and was basing it on what colours may be available in the South Pacific! 

 

and;

 

Looking at the Schiffer book USAAF Aircraft Markings and Camouflage  1941-47,.... the colour schemes for the HQ Northwest African Air Forces are interesting,.... they list a very pale blue underside colour as being;

12% Light Bue No. 307 mixed with 88% White!

Deemed suitable for the P-38, P-40, B-24 etc

 

The same book list a B-18 scheme for over water ops as being Insignia White underneath with uppers and sides in a mixed pattern of Dak Olive Drab & Neutral Grey. 

Edited September 2, 2020 by tonyot

[Graham Boak]

More a fairly general comment on the ways of the world.  It happened sometimes, as the RAF's Mixed Grey (or Ocean Grey) proves, but has been suggested by modellers in more cases than has ever been justified.  It seems that it is sometimes assumed as a default, whereas evidence suggests that the opposite was true.  The vast majority of aircraft were painted in the official colours and official schemes. 

 

The Archer/Schiffer book presents schemes suggested apparently by the Corps of Engineers, which do not bear any resemblance to those actually used on any type seen in NW Africa.  This is admitted in Archer's work, barring some A-20s in what can only be described as a fairly vague resemblance at best.  However it does show that someone in an office was prepared to consider field mixing of paints, presumably on the grounds that the enlisted men had nothing better to do.  At the best interpretation, however, this is still a long way away from the Pacific.  It may or may not be relevant that Archer had produced previous very good work for Monogram Publishers, in their excellent series of books on US camouflage and markings, but they did not publish this work.  Some very good stuff in it, mind, but it is padded.

 

 

[TISO]

13 hours ago, tonyot said:

...

The same book list a B-18 scheme for over water ops as being Insignia White underneath with uppers and sides in a mixed pattern of Dak Olive Drab & Neutral Grey. 

HMMM What colours would be present in Philippines just before and after start of the war?

Special Hobby does give similar scheme in their kit 72265 (B-18 Bolo "War service") of Olive Drab, Dark Green and Neutral Grey upper scheme with Neutral Grey undersides 

Edited September 3, 2020 by TISO

[tonyot]

On 9/3/2020 at 12:43 PM, TISO said:

HMMM What colours would be present in Philippines just before and after start of the war?

Special Hobby does give similar scheme in their kit 72265 (B-18 Bolo "War service") of Olive Drab, Dark Green and Neutral Grey upper scheme with Neutral Grey undersides 

Ask Graham mate.